ONCE AGAIN! Facts in the Bible is supported by archaeology.

[PruePhillip]

Another attempt at a subject change? Nice try. We were talking about the current Middle East, not historical wars with much clearer justifications. If you want to discuss allied atrocities against civilians during aerial bombardments I'm happy to engage with you, although some sort of commitment from you that you won't change the subject whenever I raise an inconvenient or uncomfortable truth would be nice.

FYI, I'm directly responsible for at the very least one "collateral damage" civilian death, so I hope we can avoid any jingoistic appeals to nationalism or similar claims implying lack of understanding or "supporting of troops" and so on.

Yeah, I was in the army too.
There was nothing jingoistic about fighting people who hate and
want to destroy you. And collateral casualties are a part of that.
But I think it is yourself who is changing the subject.

 

[PruePhillip]

Jesus' "warning about Jerusalem saved lives"? That's a new one.

It's shouldn't be a new one. Christians fled Judea and most were
not caught up in the atrocities. I often wonder if the particular
account Jesus mentioned about not turning back when you see
the moment approaching wasn't in reference to the Roman
general Gallus mysterious retreat from Jerusalem, at the very
moment he was about to break down the gates, and was destroyed
at Beth Horan. This gave many a few hours to flee from the city
before it was again sealed by the Jewish radicals. Just a thought.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Yeah, I was in the army too.
There was nothing jingoistic about fighting people who hate and
want to destroy you. And collateral casualties are a part of that.
But I think it is yourself who is changing the subject.

Maybe try reading what I said again, then.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

It's shouldn't be a new one. Christians fled Judea and most were
not caught up in the atrocities. I often wonder if the particular
account Jesus mentioned about not turning back when you see
the moment approaching wasn't in reference to the Roman
general Gallus mysterious retreat from Jerusalem, at the very
moment he was about to break down the gates, and was destroyed
at Beth Horan. This gave many a few hours to flee from the city
before it was again sealed by the Jewish radicals. Just a thought.

... okay. I don't recall Jesus mentioning Gallus, or Vespasian, which might have been more useful, but sure, why not?

Not much unusual about Gallus'retreat, iirc, he'd lost his baggage train and seige equipment, but I digress.

 

[gnostic]

Look, two Romans wrote of Hannibal.
Sounded as fantastic as some of those biblical stories.
Africans invading Rome from the North with elephants,
sending an army across the Alps.

If I remember correctly, and it has been a long time since I read up Roman history, particularly about Hannibal, I think it was only one elephant that survived survived, if not two.

But it wasn’t the first time the Romans had encountered elephants...perhaps it was for that generation. Pyrrhus of Epirus campaigned against Rome, 60 years earlier, with 20 elephants.

 

[PruePhillip]

... okay. I don't recall Jesus mentioning Gallus, or Vespasian, which might have been more useful, but sure, why not?

Not much unusual about Gallus'retreat, iirc, he'd lost his baggage train and seige equipment, but I digress.

Why would Jesus mention Roman names, or even dates or other details?
The point was, as always - be watchful and think about what I have told you.
That applies to us today for the same sort of prophecy told to the Jews have
been told to us as well.

 

[PruePhillip]

If I remember correctly, and it has been a long time since I read up Roman history, particularly about Hannibal, I think it was only one elephant that survived survived, if not two.

But it wasn’t the first time the Romans had encountered elephants...perhaps it was for that generation. Pyrrhus of Epirus campaigned against Rome, 60 years earlier, with 20 elephants.

Hannibal is my favorite General. I use him as an example of how people chose what
they believe. Seven writers in the New Testament wrote of Jesus, yet many refuse to
believe he ever existed. Some say Luke was one of the greatest historians of the
ancient world, but is recognized as such because he wrote of Jesus.

 

[gnostic]

Seven writers in the New Testament wrote of Jesus, yet many refuse to
believe he ever existed. Some say Luke was one of the greatest historians of the
ancient world, but is recognized as such because he wrote of Jesus.

No one these days, except Orthodox and Catholics and Protestants believed in the traditions that the gospel was written by Luke.

As I said earlier, the general consensus is that Luke, Paul's disciple didn't write the gospel which his name was ascribed to. They only started referring to it as the gospel of Luke only from 2nd century CE and onward.

All four gospels, the authorships were nameless.

I only referred to these gospels by the attributed names, more out of convenience, but the fact is, no ones know who wrote them.

For instance, there are two books associated with the prophet and judge Samuel, but it is clear that Samuel didn't write them. And Samuel died part way through book 1, so clearly it is impossible for a dead man not only to finish writing book 1, but also writing book 2 about David's reign.

Beside that, most of the books of the Old Testament were written from King Josiah's reign (2nd half of 7th century BCE) to the return from Babylonian exile (6th century BCE).

In the Bronze Age, there are no literary evidence that any book from Old Testament existed, including those of the Torah or the Christian Pentateuch, which have been attributed to Moses. There are no Hebrew writings ever found in scrolls, papyri, clay tablets or stone tablets, no inscriptions on walls of home, tombs or coffins, containing a single OT passage. Nothing, absolutely nothing.

So the traditions that Moses wrote the Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers, are myths. Moses himself is a myth.

Attributed authors don't mean they were real authors.

 

[PruePhillip]

No one these days, except Orthodox and Catholics and Protestants believed in the traditions that the gospel was written by Luke.

As I said earlier, the general consensus is that Luke, Paul's disciple didn't write the gospel which his name was ascribed to. They only started referring to it as the gospel of Luke only from 2nd century CE and onward.

All four gospels, the authorships were nameless.
.

Quote - No one these days,
Big deal. They don't believe Abraham could have ridden a camel either.
And any examination of the bible begins with the statement "There is no
God, so what is happening here?"
Bad science.

The reason people "assign" names to the Gospels is because there was
widespread understanding about the authors. Luke was the Physician, he
was with Paul. He compiled and researched the history of the early church
and the life of Jesus. He wasn't an eyewitness of Jesus.

 

[ecco]

We can safely assume that Jesus was an historic person.

Based on what? The plethora of contemporaneous writings. Oh, wait, there aren't any.

 

[ecco]

Read Jesus Sermon on the Mount

Who accurately recorded all 2000+ words. Was it just one individual writing shorthand? Was it a group effort with people alternately writing down some sentences? Did someone bring enough parchment and quills to write it all down? How did people know to bring that much parchment and so many quills?

 

[PruePhillip]

Who accurately recorded all 2000+ words. Was it just one individual writing shorthand? Was it a group effort with people alternately writing down some sentences? Did someone bring enough parchment and quills to write it all down? How did people know to bring that much parchment and so many quills?

Who knows. Maybe a better question is to ask:
why do people ask about pens and quills?
why do people question if this sermon actually happened?
why do people study dates, locations, persons etc and not the message?

Maybe in this adulterous and drug addled world we simply have no place
for a sermon on the mount, or any sermon at all.

 

[PruePhillip]

Based on what? The plethora of contemporaneous writings. Oh, wait, there aren't any.

There are about seven authors to Jesus.
There are two authors for Hannibal
Some "historic" figures have only one author.

 

[ChristineM]

Lots of peripheral issues here.
You have to ask what chance is it that any prediction will come true.
And then ask how many predictions can you possibly get right.
If there's a one in a hundred chance Jacob got one prediction right,
and there's half a dozen predictions then the chances become
100x100x100x100x100x100, or ten with 12 zeros after it.

If you are referring to the current Palestinian issue with Hamas
then these are the facts:
Hamas deliberately targeted school buses, hospitals, schools
and the like for maximum shock.
Hamas hides it terror infrastructure inside schools and hospitals
and sends its own kids to fight the Israelis - so that when these
poor kids are hurt or killed it will make Israel look bad.

Every one makes predictions many times a day, most of them come true, how do you think crossing the road works, what about the stock market?

They are only part of the facts, Israel deliberately targets civilians and schools because they dont like people getting ticked off when their land is stolen

Israeli soldiers reveal they were ordered to shoot to kill in Gaza – even if targets were civilians - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

'The world stands disgraced' - Israeli shelling of school kills at least 15

 

[tas8831]

Pontius Pilate’s ring may have been discovered at ancient biblical fortress

Just another nail that keeps appearing again and again.

It's amazing, to me, how the information in the Gospels and letters are supported by facts that are discovered.

This has probably been addressed already, but first of all, I don't think anyone has denied Pilate's existence, so no 'new discovery.' Second, I would hope that some of the people and places and events adorning the bible's translated and edited pages refer to real people and places and events, lest the entire thing be false.

 

[ecco]

Who accurately recorded all 2000+ words. Was it just one individual writing shorthand? Was it a group effort with people alternately writing down some sentences? Did someone bring enough parchment and quills to write it all down? How did people know to bring that much parchment and so many quills?

Who knows. Maybe a better question is to ask:
why do people ask about pens and quills?
why do people question if this sermon actually happened?
why do people study dates, locations, persons etc and not the message?

Maybe in this adulterous and drug addled world we simply have no place
for a sermon on the mount, or any sermon at all.

Given that this thread is about facts-in-the-bible the better question is how they got there.

But I do understand your need to duck and dodge.

 

[Shad]

Yeah, but I've seen the headlines for many about that ring. Most put "may" or "might" in the title but I noted the Fox one acted like it was definitely the real deal.

Hence why I pointed out the source Fox used and quoted details Fox left out.

 

[ecco]

Based on what? The plethora of contemporaneous writings. Oh, wait, there aren't any.

There are about seven authors to Jesus.

Yes, seven authors who extensively quote Jesus' words as if they were there to actually hear them. But we know they weren't actually there. Additionally, how could they have recorded those words?

There are two authors for Hannibal

Really?

So What About Hannibal, Then? • Richard Carrier
Livy and other authors also had and used eyewitness literary sources on Hannibal, and accordingly we have descriptions of these authors and what they wrote and often direct quotations and citations of their lost works. This includes the Roman politician and orator Cato the Elder. And the Roman historian Fabius Pictor. Both lived during and wrote about Hannibal’s war. Sosylus of Lacedaemon, a traveling companion of Hannibal, also wrote an extensive account of his wars. Likewise Silenus of Caleacte. And Lucius Cincius Alimentus was a Roman war prisoner who dined with Hannibal for years in captivity, and then wrote of his experiences after the war in his Annals. And possibly the historian Gaius Acilius, who certainly wrote a researched account of the Hannibalic war within forty years of his death, and may even have lived during it. We have nothing like this for Jesus: multiple quotations and citations of writings about him by eyewitnesses. We have in fact not even one. Nor even any reference to an oral eyewitness source. (Again, the one in John is a fake: OHJ, Ch. 10.7.)

Then, we have the writings of numerous historians within a century or so of Hannibal’s death, writing detailed histories using critical and rational methods, and (like those eyewitness writers above) not composing mythical hagiographies. These include not just Livy, but Cornelius Nepos, Diodorus, Coelius Antipater, Silenus Calatinus, Valerius Antias, Claudius Quadrigarius, and many others, from whom we have fragments, quotations, or partial texts. We have nothing like this explosion of quotable histories of Jesus within 120 years of his death. In fact, we have exactly zero histories of Jesus.​

 

[Shad]

You are right, upper class, but as you have said, in the social order of Rome, the Equites were below that of the Patrician order.

They are part of the Patrician order just not the Senatorial class. The Senatorial class had a political service criteria based on family and history. If a relative, even long dead, served in a rank from curule aedile and up their family was part of this class.

The way any Eques or even of lower status, to gain entry into the Senatorial Order, the aristocrat class, is to win the election of consulship, which would automatically ennoble him.

As per Cicero when he was elected Consul. His class changed with his election

In the earlier history of Rome, the consuls and praetors were in the hands of the Patricians, but correct me if I am wrong, they made law (lex Licinia Sextia in the mid-4th century BCE) that lower classes (plebians) could achieve magistrate offices, like consuls.

The law was about consuls. Other ranks open later using this law as a springboard.

 

[Shad]

WOW! I read a history book on the US revolution about a George Washington and realized that Philadelphia is a real place... can you imagine????

I read Sherlock Holmes which had a setting which was based on the real London but the characters were never real people.