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One God or many gods

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There is only one potential Ionian/Matriarchal society and that is the Indus Valley Civilization in my opinion.
I realize I'm butting in on an ongoing conversation that I haven't been following, but I'm a little confused by this remark. Ionia refers to the geographic location that stretches from the Aegean Sea to the interior of Anatolia. Indus Valley is a location in India. They are close to 2000 miles apart.
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
I realize I'm butting in on an ongoing conversation that I haven't been following, but I'm a little confused by this remark. Ionia refers to the geographic location that stretches from the Aegean Sea to the interior of Anatolia. Indus Valley is a location in India. They are close to 2000 miles apart.

Here is a nice table describing the differences

1727975443967.png




The reference is to the societal structure.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Here is a nice table describing the differences

View attachment 99352



The reference is to the societal structure.

Dorians, like Ionians, are connected with Greece. I was replying to the statement that "There is only one potential Ionian/Matriarchal society and that is the Indus Valley Civilization in my opinion." The remark is the equivalent to saying that American society existed among the Maya simply because both cultures have ball and hoop games. The Indus Valley is almost 2000 miles away from Greece and had its own distinct culture independent of what evolved in Ionia. Thus, nothing in the Indus Valley Culture can be described as Ionian society.

And to be really honest with you, what I found strangest is that the use of the word "only" in the remark would mean that Ionian society didn't exist in Ionia. Clearly I'm missing something here, which is why I'm asking for clarification.

Let me approach this a different way. If we compare Ionian and Dorian culture, the Ionians tended to have democratic states, whereas the Dorians were more militaristic. However, you wouldn't go and say "I find Dorian society in the Soviet Union." The way you would word it is more like, "Some societies are more militaristic, such as Dorian society or the Soviet Union."

I'm still listening. It's possible you are simply using "Ionian" and "Dorian" in a way unrelated to location or culture. Anything you can do to clarify would be helpful, starting with a link to your chart. I ran a google image search because I wanted some context for this compare/contrast. However, nothing came up. Do you have a link?
 
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GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
Dorians, like Ionians, are connected with Greece. I was replying to the statement that "There is only one potential Ionian/Matriarchal society and that is the Indus Valley Civilizationin my opinion." The remark is the equivalent to saying that American Football existed among the Aztecs. The Indus Valley is almost 2000 miles away from Greece and had its own distinct culture independent of what evolved in Ionia. Thus, nothing in the Indus Valley Culture can be described as Ionian society.

Let me approach this a different way. If we compare Ionian and Dorian culture, the Ionians tended to have democratic states, whereas the Dorians were more militaristic. However, you wouldn't go and say "I find Dorian society in the Soviet Union." The way you would word it is more like, "Some societies are more militaristic, such as Dorian society or the Soviet Union."

I'm still listening. It's possible you are simply using "Ionian" and "Dorian" in a way unrelated to location or culture. Anything you can do to clarify would be helpful, starting with a link to your chart. I ran a google image search because I wanted some context for this compare/contrast. However, nothing came up. Do you have a link?

Yes, I think the first question to ask is, in what way was the IVC society different to the Sumerian and Egyptian societies at the same time?

Although we are still learning, from what we know the IVC appeared to champion equality, respect, and democracy. The buildings were open to the public regardless of sex, and there does not appear to be any royal authority over the cities. I know some experts think there could have been some social heirarchy, but for the most part it was significantly different to the other bronze age civilizations of the time. The lack of temple structures is also in stark contrast to Mesopotamia and Egypt.

That table is somewhat oversimplified, and Ionian/Dorian are ethical ideals, not necessarily frameworks for administration. Nevertheless, the table is useful to apply the descriptors to the societies of the time, and it is my opinion that the IVC were more "Ionian" in their views of the world compared to the Sumerians or Egyptians.

Equality of the sexes, especially at that time would have been amazing to see in action. I think females and motherhood were given a significant amount of respect, and although I don't consider the IVC a "matriarchal" society, the lack of a "patriarchy" is also very interesting. By lack I mean no evidence for male royalty, nor evidence that the people had a standing army or anticipated violence.


Here is the link



I first saw it here on this forum, and @River Sea also kindly found it again.


It is my firm belief that the Tamil language is also a reflection of Ionian/Matriarchal ideals, and as such it is a logical match for the Indus Valley Civilization.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, I think the first question to ask is, in what way was the IVC society different to the Sumerian and Egyptian societies at the same time?

Although we are still learning, from what we know the IVC appeared to champion equality, respect, and democracy. The buildings were open to the public regardless of sex, and there does not appear to be any royal authority over the cities. I know some experts think there could have been some social heirarchy, but for the most part it was significantly different to the other bronze age civilizations of the time. The lack of temple structures is also in stark contrast to Mesopotamia and Egypt.

That table is somewhat oversimplified, and Ionian/Dorian are ethical ideals, not necessarily frameworks for administration. Nevertheless, the table is useful to apply the descriptors to the societies of the time, and it is my opinion that the IVC were more "Ionian" in their views of the world compared to the Sumerians or Egyptians.

Equality of the sexes, especially at that time would have been amazing to see in action. I think females and motherhood were given a significant amount of respect, and although I don't consider the IVC a "matriarchal" society, the lack of a "patriarchy" is also very interesting. By lack I mean no evidence for male royalty, nor evidence that the people had a standing army or anticipated violence.
We actually know very little about the Indus Valley culture, and what little we know tends to be greatly debated, since we have no written records.

For example, we know it had some level of administrative organization, but how power was distributed and who held that power remains unclear. Some scholars do, like you, suggest that a form of collective decision-making may have existed, possibly involving local leaders or councils, but this is largely speculative. But this is speculative. There is no direct evidence of democracy.

The archaeological record does not provide clear evidence of economic equality. There are indications of social stratification, like the differences in the size of their homes.

Let's talk about the woman question. It is true that there are many female figurines. But what does that mean? While some might think it suggests that women were valued, and perhaps even shared power, others point out that many completely misogynistic societies such as ancient Greece also had many idols of female goddesses.

There is just very little evidence of ANYTHING. All of this is just completely speculative.
Here is the link



I first saw it here on this forum, and @River Sea also kindly found it again.
I wasn't able to view it without signing up for something or another to see the entire pdf. However, the title of the article, "A return to the high ethic of the Ionian Ideal," would seem to indicate that the author(s) simply want to compare Ionian and Dorian culture, and present certain elements of Ionia as superior and worthy of emulating.

I seriously doubt that these authors would say that Indus Valley was Ionian society, or even Ionian culture. As for society, as I said, they are separated by 2000 miles. As for culture, we simply don't know enough about Indus Valley culture to make the comparison.
It is my firm belief that the Tamil language is also a reflection of Ionian/Matriarchal ideals, and as such it is a logical match for the Indus Valley Civilization.
Generally speaking, languages, ANY language, don't contain cultural values. To a tiny degree, yes, here and there you might find something. But as a rule of thumb, language is one thing, and culture is another. Ideals are a cultural thing. Just as someone who speaks Tamil can value love and respect, another Tamil speaker can be a total sociopath incapable of love who disrespects and exploits people all the time. Just as someone who speaks Tamil can have a great love appreciation for women, another Tamil speaker might go home and beat his wife.

On your side, there is a very small connection of the Tamil language to a more matriarchal culture, such as that Tamil is referred to as "Mother Tamil"--this means that the speakers of Tamil associate the language with a motherly ideal. But I found very little of this sort ot thing, certainly not enough to claim that the language itself is matriarchal. Culture? Yes. Language? No. IOW, what I'm saying is that the ONLY reason that you see an association of the language with Matriarchy, is because the language is associated with a culture which in turn is associated with matriarchy.
 

ChieftheCef

Active Member
Let me explain something to all who will hear.

Abrahamism is based on an old pharaohs lie. Akhenaten who sought absolute power lied his way into the essentially pope position of highest priest by his taking of what was true and perverting it into one singular diety. He ruined his country, he was an idealist, not a pragmatist. He did not go by what was practical or true, he went by what he wanted to be true so he could have absolute power.

The Egyptians prior to and for many years after believed essentially that the gods composed god who was held above the others in an inclusive way. This was something they came to the realization of by way of psychedelic substance which expands awareness i.e. it is true( and I have checked with Science)

Practically, not exaggerating, all of abrahamism/monotheism is hogwash. What isn't is stolen and some of what is stolen is contorted.
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
We actually know very little about the Indus Valley culture, and what little we know tends to be greatly debated, since we have no written records.

For example, we know it had some level of administrative organization, but how power was distributed and who held that power remains unclear. Some scholars do, like you, suggest that a form of collective decision-making may have existed, possibly involving local leaders or councils, but this is largely speculative. But this is speculative. There is no direct evidence of democracy.

The archaeological record does not provide clear evidence of economic equality. There are indications of social stratification, like the differences in the size of their homes.

Let's talk about the woman question. It is true that there are many female figurines. But what does that mean? While some might think it suggests that women were valued, and perhaps even shared power, others point out that many completely misogynistic societies such as ancient Greece also had many idols of female goddesses.

There is just very little evidence of ANYTHING. All of this is just completely speculative.

I wasn't able to view it without signing up for something or another to see the entire pdf. However, the title of the article, "A return to the high ethic of the Ionian Ideal," would seem to indicate that the author(s) simply want to compare Ionian and Dorian culture, and present certain elements of Ionia as superior and worthy of emulating.

I seriously doubt that these authors would say that Indus Valley was Ionian society, or even Ionian culture. As for society, as I said, they are separated by 2000 miles. As for culture, we simply don't know enough about Indus Valley culture to make the comparison.

Generally speaking, languages, ANY language, don't contain cultural values. To a tiny degree, yes, here and there you might find something. But as a rule of thumb, language is one thing, and culture is another. Ideals are a cultural thing. Just as someone who speaks Tamil can value love and respect, another Tamil speaker can be a total sociopath incapable of love who disrespects and exploits people all the time. Just as someone who speaks Tamil can have a great love appreciation for women, another Tamil speaker might go home and beat his wife.

On your side, there is a very small connection of the Tamil language to a more matriarchal culture, such as that Tamil is referred to as "Mother Tamil"--this means that the speakers of Tamil associate the language with a motherly ideal. But I found very little of this sort ot thing, certainly not enough to claim that the language itself is matriarchal. Culture? Yes. Language? No. IOW, what I'm saying is that the ONLY reason that you see an association of the language with Matriarchy, is because the language is associated with a culture which in turn is associated with matriarchy.

Yes of course, speculation is rife and unfortunately knowledge of the Indus Valley is only 100 years old, but we can trace back the history of the Tamil language as far as we can. It is when we do that firstly, there is a mismatch between what is considered written textual references, and what is then considered evidence.

I have considered a "plan of attack" so to speak IF one is to consider a relationship between the Tamil language as we know it, and the Indus Valley Civilization.

First, we would require to remove any Sankritization as best as we can for academic purpose. This includes the letters and words that are clearly derived from Sanskrit and not of Tamil origin. Now I have started this, and have put my focus on simple references like days of the week, name of months, and the calendar. Whilst these have certainly been influenced, there is still signs of what I consider to be potentially "original" names and meanings in Tamil that have a significant lean towards being matriarchal.


The Tamil calendar is an excellent example, since it combines both language and culture.

We know it to be a solar calendar which I believe is significant, since it says the focus of the culture was on the Sun only, and not on constellations or the moon. This also suggests it was practical and designed for an agricultural society, not one based on religious ideas. There are 12 months, and the first month is Chittirai. The word itself isn't considered by Tamils today to have much meaning, but it is clear that the name contains the word that means aunt, or specifically, a mother's younger sister.

In my opinion it has been corrupted to mean "pregnant aunt" or more vulgar than that, but my point is the meaning is there. Now going back 3 month another month is called Tai. This was an attempt to change to original meaning away from what it means, which is mother. It wasn't even a very good attempt, since whoever decided on the names gave that month a name with just 1 letter. That letter NOW has the meaning of 9th month of the year, but there is no reasoning behind it except for changing it for the reasons they had.

However, IF you say it like everyone does, which is Thaai, then people are saying the word mother.

Moving on to another month in the calendar, the current name is Aipacci, which again has no meaning except to say the whatever month of the year. What I believe the "deciders" have done it alter the original name slightly from Aicci to match another language or whoknowswhy. That is because Aicci is the honourable way to refer to grandmother!

So we have Grandmother, Mother, Little mother (aunt), as three months in the Tamil calender that currently have other names that have no meaning whatsoever. I suspect a fourth one, currently named Aadi which has basically no meaning, was known as Thathi. I never heard of this term but it means foster mother or hand-maid. Aadi is cheeky since the long Aa attempts to masculinize the name even if it has no meaning, but it does this almost out of spite if my "revealation" is correct. I would certainly believe that at some point in human history foster mothers were very highly respected, and I could see a society who already has 3 mothers as months on their calendar add them as a fourth. All of these months are also separated equally, as a continuous reminder throughout the year.

So yes, I think if Tamils all understood that

(1) The Tamil calendar is NOT a Hindu calendar
(2) The names we use are not the original names
(3) That referring to "Mother Tamil" isn't only lip-service
(4) The language has had significant influence from Sanskrit
(5) The names for the days of the weeks make ZERO sense!

Sunday is Gnairru, which does not mean sun. Again it has no meaning BUT when you divide the word it becomes Gnana Irruvu, which NOW is heading towards a meaning of Night of Wisdom/Creation.

Then we can start moving towards doing what I'm doing, which is accepting the scenario to be true, i.e. the Indus Valley spoke Tamil, and working backwards as long as the actions complement.
 
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