One of my problems with Islam

[illykitty]

I struggle with a few concepts, hell being my main issue at this time.

Say someone did the most horrible acts, think of someone like Hitler, I agree they shouldn't be allowed into heaven but I don't know what such people "deserve".

I just find the graphic descriptions of hell very disturbing and honestly sounds evil. Torture for eternity for some people? I'm not sure that's just? Seems pointless to do this to someone, it doesn't accomplish anything.

I'm conflicted on one hand I feel that some punishment should happen, because of my sense of justice. On the other hand, I wouldn't wish eternal punishment as described in the Qur'an on anyone.

Maybe I'm too soft. But I've always been very sensitive and highly empathic. You could say I don't have an issue with some people having punishment in the afterlife, but rather the method.

Or are there some alternative views I'm not considering, or something I missed? It's really hard.

Edited: I really hope this doesn't rub anyone wrong, I'm trying to get to the core of this and I often hold myself back asking questions because I really don't want to offend.

 

[FearGod]

I struggle with a few concepts, hell being my main issue at this time.

Say someone did the most horrible acts, think of someone like Hitler, I agree they shouldn't be allowed into heaven but I don't know what such people "deserve".

I just find the graphic descriptions of hell very disturbing and honestly sounds evil. Torture for eternity for some people? I'm not sure that's just? Seems pointless to do this to someone, it doesn't accomplish anything.

I'm conflicted on one hand I feel that some punishment should happen, because of my sense of justice. On the other hand, I wouldn't wish eternal punishment as described in the Qur'an on anyone.

Maybe I'm too soft. But I've always been very sensitive and highly empathic. You could say I don't have an issue with some people having punishment in the afterlife, but rather the method.

Or are there some alternative views I'm not considering, or something I missed? It's really hard.

Edited: I really hope this doesn't rub anyone wrong, I'm trying to get to the core of this and I often hold myself back asking questions because I really don't want to offend.

I don't know any answer other than submission.

I think we choose our own end according to what we want to believe.

I may describe it as roads or paths in life which have another roads which leads to an eternal life,so one road says you should do so and so and at the end of this road you'll be guided to a garden and you'll enjoy that place for ever,and there is another road which you can do whatever you want away from our guidance but you'll be trapped in a hell fire which will be your eternal place for what you have chose.

 

[Union]

Hi Illykitty . See if the following analysis about the punishment of hell may ease your tension .

[002:281] And fear the Day when ye shall be brought back to God. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly.

[003:025] But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there is no doubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favour or) injustice?
[006:160] He that doeth good shall have ten times as much to his credit: He that doeth evil shall only be recompensed according to his evil: no wrong shall be done unto (any of) them.

[010:054] Every soul that hath sinned, if it possessed all that is on earth, would fain give it in ransom: They would declare (their) repentance when they see the penalty: but the judgment between them will be with justice, and no wrong will be done unto them.

Extract : Almighty GOD recompenses people equitable as per their deeds …………………..(1)

[023:099] (In Falsehood will they be) Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "O my Lord! send me back (to life),-
[023:100] "In order that I may work righteousness in the things I neglected." - "By no means! It is but a word he says."- Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up.
[023:101] Then when the Trumpet is blown, there will be no more relationships between them that Day, nor will one ask after another!

Extract : Some people would do evil again n again if they would send back to earth for another chance ……………(2)

[006:128] And on the Day when He will gather them (all) together (and say): "O you assembly of jinns! Many did you mislead of men," and their Auliya (friends and helpers, etc.) amongst men will say: "Our Lord! We benefited one from the other, but now we have reached our appointed term which You did appoint for us." He will say: "The Fire be your dwelling place, you will dwell therein forever, except as Allah may will. Certainly your Lord is AllWise, AllKnowing."
[6:129] We thus match the wicked to be companions of each other, as a punishment for their transgressions.

[011:106] So as to those who are unhappy, they shall be in the fire; for them shall be sighing and groaning in it:
[011:107] Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.
Extract : Not all people will reside in hell forever , if GOD wants HE may can exempt some from hell …………………………….(3)

Now if we put points (1) , (2) and (3) in one equation , we can see that people who intend to do limited sins will end up in hell for limited time and people who intend to do sins forever , they would end up in hell for ever .

I don't know if this makes any sense to you :yes::no:

 

[Shia Islam]

I struggle with a few concepts, hell being my main issue at this time.

Say someone did the most horrible acts, think of someone like Hitler, I agree they shouldn't be allowed into heaven but I don't know what such people "deserve".

I just find the graphic descriptions of hell very disturbing and honestly sounds evil. Torture for eternity for some people? I'm not sure that's just? Seems pointless to do this to someone, it doesn't accomplish anything.

I'm conflicted on one hand I feel that some punishment should happen, because of my sense of justice. On the other hand, I wouldn't wish eternal punishment as described in the Qur'an on anyone.

Maybe I'm too soft. But I've always been very sensitive and highly empathic. You could say I don't have an issue with some people having punishment in the afterlife, but rather the method.

Or are there some alternative views I'm not considering, or something I missed? It's really hard.

Edited: I really hope this doesn't rub anyone wrong, I'm trying to get to the core of this and I often hold myself back asking questions because I really don't want to offend.

Dear illykitty,

Allah exalted is the most merciful and the absolute just...

Out of his mercy, he will never punish an evil-doer without this evil-doer been warned, has understood the warning and has insisted in his evil-doing...

Those who deserve forgiveness will be forgiven...

I remember a hadith saying something like this: anyone who has in his heart as small as an atom of goodness will eventually go to heaven...(i don't remember the hadith precisely...but the idea is similar to what i said.)

We, kind humans can't imaging how evil are some criminals....Just imagine the they can live forever, and have all the power and that they themselves own the hellfire...How many billions of people will they punish in the hellfire and for eternity...So is it not just to punish those criminals...

 

[illykitty]

Yeah, i suppose he wouldn't keep people in hell unjustly. But is there any reason why hell is (or sounds like) physical punishment?

Some religions and people believe in hell but that it's spiritual remoteness from god which causes pain to the soul. These people inflict it on themselves by denying god so they get what they wished for, except it's not a nice feeling.

I guess it's human nature to find physical punishments to be hard to think about... I can think of mental and spiritual punishments fine, but it's the physicality that gets to me.

 

[FearGod]

Yeah, i suppose he wouldn't keep people in hell unjustly. But is there any reason why hell is (or sounds like) physical punishment?

Some religions and people believe in hell but that it's spiritual remoteness from god which causes pain to the soul. These people inflict it on themselves by denying god so they get what they wished for, except it's not a nice feeling.

I guess it's human nature to find physical punishments to be hard to think about... I can think of mental and spiritual punishments fine, but it's the physicality that gets to me.

What is spiritual punishment ?

Can you explain How to punish the spirit ?

 

[Rational_Mind]

I struggle with a few concepts, hell being my main issue at this time.

Say someone did the most horrible acts, think of someone like Hitler, I agree they shouldn't be allowed into heaven but I don't know what such people "deserve".

I just find the graphic descriptions of hell very disturbing and honestly sounds evil. Torture for eternity for some people? I'm not sure that's just? Seems pointless to do this to someone, it doesn't accomplish anything.

I'm conflicted on one hand I feel that some punishment should happen, because of my sense of justice. On the other hand, I wouldn't wish eternal punishment as described in the Qur'an on anyone.

Maybe I'm too soft. But I've always been very sensitive and highly empathic. You could say I don't have an issue with some people having punishment in the afterlife, but rather the method.

Or are there some alternative views I'm not considering, or something I missed? It's really hard.

Edited: I really hope this doesn't rub anyone wrong, I'm trying to get to the core of this and I often hold myself back asking questions because I really don't want to offend.

I can prove to you the following from the Holy Quran and Hadith as well if it provides more comfort:

1. Hell is not eternal.
2. Hell and Heaven are not Physical rather take a different form that are unlike anything we know.
3. Hell is not evil.

If you are interested PM me.

 

[dendrophilous]

Hi, I'm also spiritually exploring and also seriously considering Islam. I'm just wondering though -- why comment on Islam? Christianity has hell too.

 

[illykitty]

Hi, I'm also spiritually exploring and also seriously considering Islam. I'm just wondering though -- why comment on Islam? Christianity has hell too.

Because apart from being baptised, Christianity never was in my life and I'm not interested in it. There's already a thread about hell in general and most people are discussing Christianity in it. I'm sure there's other religions too describing some forms of hell, which you reincarnate into.

But anyway, I'm more concerned about the Islamic version because I'm trying to clear up things I have a problem with in Islam.

So if I chose to practise it again, I won't have these issues in the back of my mind bothering me. Maybe some others wonder about it too. It's not always smooth sailing when you decide to practise.

Anyway, if you have a question on topic, ask away here or make your eon thread. I don't mind.

 

[dynavert2012]

i think we can't catch a full understanding about that, it's something beyond our intelligence, Allah is too much wise than us and so many of his actions can't be understood by our minds

i can do my best and try to justify it throw some verses from the quran but i can't claim that this is why Allah made the hell physical and eternal for some of his creatures
specially that the default just in our minds say "eternal punishment should be for eternal crimes" and so nobody is lived eternally so nobody deserves to be punished eternally

Allah said "If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers, But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars. 6:27-28

here Allah is talking about some people when they will say the hell they will ask Allah for mercy but he won't, why? he said because he knows that if he gave them another life they will do the same crimes, if they get another chance they will say Allah is merciful and he will forgive us as he did first time, so if he gave them eternal chances to live they will do the same crimes so in Allah's knowledge they deserve eternal punishment
i know it;s not an easy answer to digest, but it's the best i could offer

 

[Virus]

I struggle with a few concepts, hell being my main issue at this time.

Say someone did the most horrible acts, think of someone like Hitler, I agree they shouldn't be allowed into heaven but I don't know what such people "deserve".

I just find the graphic descriptions of hell very disturbing and honestly sounds evil. Torture for eternity for some people? I'm not sure that's just? Seems pointless to do this to someone, it doesn't accomplish anything.

I'm conflicted on one hand I feel that some punishment should happen, because of my sense of justice. On the other hand, I wouldn't wish eternal punishment as described in the Qur'an on anyone.

Maybe I'm too soft. But I've always been very sensitive and highly empathic. You could say I don't have an issue with some people having punishment in the afterlife, but rather the method.

Or are there some alternative views I'm not considering, or something I missed? It's really hard.

Edited: I really hope this doesn't rub anyone wrong, I'm trying to get to the core of this and I often hold myself back asking questions because I really don't want to offend.

They deserve it, I don't have any problems with it

 

[illykitty]

i think we can't catch a full understanding about that, it's something beyond our intelligence, Allah is too much wise than us and so many of his actions can't be understood by our minds [...]
i know it;s not an easy answer to digest, but it's the best i could offer

It's okay. It's probably one of the better ways of looking at it. If Allah permitted re-incarnation those people would chose to do the same things over and over again. They wouldn't change and Allah knows this. We don't know, I would hope that someone given a second chance would change but it's not always the case, I suppose.

"Allah knows what you do not." Maybe some people would argue no one in their right mind would chose this, but honestly I've heard people say things like "if this God exists I would rather rebel, be in hell, etc." so it's not impossible.

All I have to say at the moment is that it's a hard subject to think about but in some ways I feel I needed to get it out of my system and that helps. So I thank all of you for reading and responding.

Please do post if there's more to add or a different perspective.
In the meantime, I need to focus on Allah's mercy and justice more.

Edit: I have a question to ask. Say someone believes in all of the basics of Islam but still has doubts sometimes, is such a person a Muslim?

 

[dynavert2012]

I have a question to ask. Say someone believes in all of the basics of Islam but still has doubts sometimes, is such a person a Muslim?

what exactly s/he doubts?

 

[illykitty]

what exactly s/he doubts?

I'm actually talking about myself. Okay, well I'm 99.9% sure God exists. I only leave 0.1% of doubt because I'm only human and could be wrong.

I just don't know if I'm capable of believing 100% of anything. :areyoucra I'm not the type of person who does blind faith. And I'm also the type of person who knows all too well that I'm human, super flawed and can be mistaken (I've been wrong so many times). Maybe it's because I'm not a confident person.

 

[dynavert2012]

I'm actually talking about myself. Okay, well I'm 99.9% sure God exists. I only leave 0.1% of doubt because I'm only human and could be wrong.

I just don't know if I'm capable of believing 100% of anything. :areyoucra I'm not the type of person who does blind faith. And I'm also the type of person who knows all too well that I'm human, super flawed and can be mistaken (I've been wrong so many times). Maybe it's because I'm not a confident person.

i think this 0.1% of doubt about god's existence is enough for not being a Muslim
Allah said "The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful" 49:15
i see you are a good minded person and you have to be more confident about your decisions, and no matters of having mistakes, you said you are human
human = mistakes

 

[Union]

I'm actually talking about myself. Okay, well I'm 99.9% sure God exists. I only leave 0.1% of doubt because I'm only human and could be wrong.

I just don't know if I'm capable of believing 100% of anything. :areyoucra I'm not the type of person who does blind faith. And I'm also the type of person who knows all too well that I'm human, super flawed and can be mistaken (I've been wrong so many times). Maybe it's because I'm not a confident person.

I like the way you put things , cute and chilly in the same time

That 99.9% = 100% of you Illikitty and the rest 01.% is from Satan . You know Satan is always whispering to us against Almighty GOD . That his duty , he is doing it underneath of our veins ..:devil:

 

[illykitty]

True it could be Satan.

I didn't think of it that way. Thanks Union.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Resolved:

Speaking about the day of Judgement the Holy Quran states:

[11:106] The day it comes, no soul shall speak except by His permission; then some of them will prove unfortunate and others fortunate.

In this verse it is established that that topic is of the Day of Judgement. If someone does not agree, please kindly read the preceding verses so it is established more clearly.

[11:107] As for those who will prove unfortunate, they shall be in the Fire, wherein there shall be for them sighing and sobbing,

Here it is clear the unfortunate being spoken about would be those who would enter Hell, from the reference to those that “shall be in the Fire”.

[11:108]Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases.

This verse is still on topic and speaking about the hereafter. It is continuing from the last topic stating that “Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will.”

[11:109] But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off.

Similarly to the last verse we see that those who enter heaven will also “abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will”.

Now let us compare the difference between verse 108 which is obviously speaking about the term in Hell and verse 109 which is obviously speaking about Heaven.

Verse 108: Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases.
Verse 109: a gift that shall not be cut off.

Now please note that every single iota of the Holy Quran is with purpose. So it would be a very unfortunate on our part to deny that a clear difference is made in these two verses side by side about Heaven and Hell.

Allah (swt) has specifically pointed out that Heaven is “a gift that shall not be cut off.” If “abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure” means forever, then there is no need for such a statement. When speaking about Hell it is stated “Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases.” Now it should be clear that this is indicative of the attributes of Allah (swt). Here we know Allah (swt) is emphatic in this statement, if it is not clear read it a few times over. Fa-A-La (does bring about) means “the Great Doer of things that others cannot do”. Here it is clear that Allah (swt) can choose to exercise his Mercy which we are made aware of day and night when we recite Bismillah, the attributes that we are also remindeded of before reading any Surah of the Holy Quran.

If Allah (swt) intended to say Hell is just as everlasting as Heaven he would have stated in regards to Hell “a punishment that shall not be cut off”. But it is clear that it was not stated here and this difference was explicitly made in regards to Hell and Heaven (verses 108-109).

It was the view of Ibn Taimiya and Ibn al-Qayyim that the people would abide in Hell forever because they deserve such. But, Hell itself will one day cease to exist through Allah (swt)’s Mercy and as such there would be no dweller in it. This is just to state that this view was held by many eminent Scholars of Early Islam whom we both hold of high respect.

 

[dynavert2012]

I like the way you put things , cute and chilly in the same time

That 99.9% = 100% of you Illikitty and the rest 01.% is from Satan . You know Satan is always whispering to us against Almighty GOD . That his duty , he is doing it underneath of our veins ..:devil:

Perfect diagnosis union

so illykitty, kick off the satan and make it 100% pure

is that all you doubt about islam?

 

[Union]

True it could be Satan.

I didn't think of it that way. Thanks Union.

Its a pleasure dear . There is a Mantra in Qur'an when you recite it (In Arabic ) you will feel a sort of electric wave passing trough your whole body . You have to recite it deeply and concentrically . This will InshALLAH evict the Satan from your mind and body ...

[023:097] And say "O my Lord! I seek refuge with Thee from the suggestions of the Evil Ones.
[023:098] "And I seek refuge with Thee O my Lord! lest they should come near me."

[023:097] Waqul rabbi aAAoothu bika min hamazati alshshayateeni
[023:098] WaaAAoothu bika rabbi an yahdurooni

Note : Recite bold parts only .