Open debate: does God exist?

[The Sum of Awe]

No, that's not really what "objective" means. If it isn't the same everywhere, all the time, it isn't objective.

Objective means how it is, not based on opinion or emotion, so someone could emotionally disagree with something objective, such as 2+2=4, but really, it objectively equals 4

 

[Lintfelmy]

Thanks, do you like deep dish or thin crust?

Neither... Hand tossed every time.

 

[Desert Snake]

Neither... Hand tossed every time.

Oh yeah, I like pesto, vegetables

(edit) thin crust is my preference

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Do you remember your great, great, great, great, grandmother? Obviously you don't. Did she exist? If you do, obviously, she did too. Can you say anything about her? You definitely can't. That's an evidence that God exists. If it is not, tell me where did the universe come from and what was there before it started. If you cannot provide a satisfying answer, "by default" is another evidence that God exists.

There is evidence my great great great great grandmother existed; possible pictures or left behinds of her belongings, or just the simple fact that I can't logically be here without her.

 

[Lintfelmy]

Oh yeah, I like pesto, vegetables

(edit) thin crust is my preference

I like pesto as well. My fave is feta, mozzarella and pepperoni and onions. yummy to my tummy

 

[freethinker44]

Objective means how it is, not based on opinion or emotion, so someone could emotionally disagree with something objective, such as 2+2=4, but really, it objectively equals 4

So without using emotion or opinion, can you explain how killing children is morally wrong and would be so in any given situation?

 

[idea]

I could also google "proof bigfoot exists". Some spurious websites are not sufficient evidence of the accuracy of prophetic accounts, nor is it sufficient evidence that such prophecies were divinely inspired. Could you, perhaps, instead provide one or two prophecies which you find particularly convincing so that I can review them?

Most Christians find the OT prophecies about Jesus convincing - the details of his birth, life, and death are all within the OT - link

the prophecies in the Bible which discuss the coming forth of the Book of Mormon also have a special place within my heart - link - that God deals with more than just the Jewish people, but that He speaks to everyone, and that the Jewish people are not the only ones who have written scripture... "other sheep that are not of this fold..." words from the dust, stick of Joseph (BoM) … and of Judah (Bible) … shall be one in mine hand, Ezek. 37:19 (Ezek. 37:15–20)

Then how can there be so many people with conflicting accounts, beliefs and ideas of what it exactly is that they're talking to? Lots of people saying extremely unlikely things does not make them anymore likely be true. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and for every person on that website who claims to have actually had a spiritual experience, I could point to just as many claims from people who believe, just as strongly, that they were abducted by aliens.

I don't doubt that YOU believe your experiences are real, I just don't believe they are, and if you want to give me a reason to believe otherwise I'm going to need a lot better than just "you have to experience it for yourself". No, I don't. Anything that is true, or at least believable to a rational mind, shouldn't have to rely entirely on subjective personal experience in order to be validated.

Everyone decides to pursue what they most cherish in life - some enjoy music and take the time to learn how to play an instrument, others prefer art, others writing - everything you go into takes time, dedication, patience, willingness to learn. Anything that is true, noble, praiseworthy, awe inspiring - requires personal experience to understand and appreciate...

quick story - my friend was telling me about their honeymoon, they were poor college kids, so their honeymoon consisted of going on a little road trip - so they're driving across the countryside, through what she considered to be barren wasteland, and her new husband suddenly slams on the brakes, swerves to the side of the road - he's jumping up and down, grabbing the camera, hopping out of the car, saying things like "I can't believe we're seeing this! This is so incredible!" and she is looking around and looking around - only she doesn't see anything incredible or exciting - there's no animals, there's no sunset, there's nothing - just barren wasteland, just tumble weeds - and she thinks she has married a crazy person.... long story short, he's a geologist, so you can imagine what he was able to see, that she considered to be just a boring old rock... life is like that, the more you know, the more you see. You see what you study, what you take the time to personally learn about and dedicate yourself too.

There's no borrowed light - there's no borrowed appreciation of things, there's no borrowed love, or borrowed friendship, or borrowed talent, or borrowed joy and happiness - all of the most precious things in life you have to dedicate yourself to in order to learn the truth of it - the depth of it - to have a real understanding of it... it's just a question of what you want to dedicate yourself to.

You could live for music, for art, for science... or you could live for other people - for love, friendship, family, humanity... and if you think the most important thing to live for, is to live for others, being able to recognize, see, and feel their spirit - is a spiritual journey....

 

[The Sum of Awe]

So without using emotion or opinion, can you explain how killing children is morally wrong and would be so in any given situation?

I didn't agree that killing children is objectively wrong

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Most Christians find the OT prophecies about Jesus convincing - the details of his birth, life, and death are all within the OT - link

And where's the corroborating evidence of Jesus' actual birth?

the prophecies in the Bible which discuss the coming forth of the Book of Mormon also have a special place within my heart - link -

That's not a prophecy, that's a lot of disconnected sentences taken out of context that can be interpreted to mean anything you want them to mean.

that God deals with more than just the Jewish people, but that He speaks to everyone, and that the Jewish people are not the only ones who have written scripture... "other sheep that are not of this fold..." words from the dust, stick of Joseph (BoM) … and of Judah (Bible) … shall be one in mine hand, Ezek. 37:19 (Ezek. 37:15–20)

Again, that's not a prophecy. There were religious movements, texts and theists of various stripes long before the Bible was compiled.

Everyone decides to pursue what they most cherish in life - some enjoy music and take the time to learn how to play an instrument, others prefer art, others writing - everything you go into takes time, dedication, patience, willingness to learn. Anything that is true, noble, praiseworthy, awe inspiring - requires personal experience to understand and appreciate...

But all of those things are demonstrable. Religious beliefs aren't. It doesn't matter how much of your life you've dedicated to a particular belief or how much effort you put into it, nobody has ever demonstrated the truth of religious claims to such a degree that I would assess them as being valid. There are people all over the world who dedicate themselves to one religious idea and the truth of it, while there are others who dedicate their lives to a completely contradictory belief and still believe in the truth of it.

quick story - my friend was telling me about their honeymoon, they were poor college kids, so their honeymoon consisted of going on a little road trip - so they're driving across the countryside, through what she considered to be barren wasteland, and her new husband suddenly slams on the brakes, swerves to the side of the road - he's jumping up and down, grabbing the camera, hopping out of the car, saying things like "I can't believe we're seeing this! This is so incredible!" and she is looking around and looking around - only she doesn't see anything incredible or exciting - there's no animals, there's no sunset, there's nothing - just barren wasteland, just tumble weeds - and she thinks she has married a crazy person.... long story short, he's a geologist, so you can imagine what he was able to see, that she considered to be just a boring old rock... life is like that, the more you know, the more you see. You see what you study, what you take the time to personally learn about and dedicate yourself too.

What does that have to do with whether or not religious claims are true? Finding something amazing doesn't mean it exists. Star Wars instills the same amount of excitement in me as rocks do for your friend, but doesn't mean there ever really was a war in space a long time ago in a galaxy far away.

There's no borrowed light - there's no borrowed appreciation of things, there's no borrowed love, or borrowed friendship, or borrowed talent, or borrowed joy and happiness - all of the most precious things in life you have to dedicate yourself to in order to learn the truth of it - the depth of it - to have a real understanding of it... it's just a question of what you want to dedicate yourself to.

Again, you're kind of dodging the point, here. You've not actually addressed my argument.

 

[Desert Snake]

I like pesto as well. My fave is feta, mozzarella and pepperoni and onions. yummy to my tummy

nice....ham, olives, onions, whatever, I like it all. In fact a good red sauce is great for meat toppings IMO

cheers

 

[Willamena]

No, that's not really what "objective" means. If it isn't the same everywhere, all the time, it isn't objective.

That's universal.

Imagine if you will that regardless that everyone had particular, unique and individual ideas and opinions about what was right or wrong, everyone knew there was a "right" and a "wrong" by which to measure, and everyone used them. That's objective.

 

[idea]

But all of those things are demonstrable. Religious beliefs aren't.

Religious beliefs are demonstrable - by their fruits ye shall know them - they are demonstrated through the lives of the followers, through their peace, happiness, character, loyalty, charity, and ability to handle what comes their way.

It doesn't matter how much of your life you've dedicated to a particular belief or how much effort you put into it...

the same could be said of love.

What does that have to do with whether or not religious claims are true? Finding something amazing doesn't mean it exists. Star Wars instills the same amount of excitement in me as rocks do for your friend, but doesn't mean there ever really was a war in space a long time ago in a galaxy far away.

you talked about things that are extraordinary, and what it takes to be able to see those things. Extraordinary effort, dedication, education, and training are required to really see those things that are extraordinary.

Again, you're kind of dodging the point, here. You've not actually addressed my argument.

you're dodging the point - the point is, if you want to see it, you have to test it yourself... you appear unwilling to actually perform the test, and as long as you maintain that attitude, you will be unable to see what is really around you.

you will never know what apple pie tastes like unless you actually put it into your mouth and taste it... you will never know what love is unless you are willing to be loyal and true to someone for their entire life, you will never know me unless you take the time to get to know me - and you will never know God unless you take the time and effort to know Him.

It feels as if you are searching for some kind of "get rich quick" scheme - some way to get everything you want without actually having to put the effort into learning it....

 

[McBell]

Religious beliefs are demonstrable - by their fruits ye shall know them - they are demonstrated through the lives of the followers, through their peace, happiness, character, loyalty, charity, and ability to handle what comes their way.

the same could be said of love.


you talked about things that are extraordinary, and what it takes to be able to see those things. Extraordinary effort, dedication, education, and training are required to really see those things that are extraordinary.


you're dodging the point - the point is, if you want to see it, you have to test it yourself... you appear unwilling to actually perform the test, and as long as you maintain that attitude, you will be unable to see what is really around you.

you will never know what apple pie tastes like unless you actually put it into your mouth and taste it... you will never know what love is unless you are willing to be loyal and true to someone for their entire life, you will never know me unless you take the time to get to know me - and you will never know God unless you take the time and effort to know Him.

It feels as if you are searching for some kind of "get rich quick" scheme - some way to get everything you want without actually having to put the effort into learning it....

Nice safety net you got there.

Any time some one disagrees, you just tell them it is because they do not believe hard enough.
or that they do not understand deep enough.
Or they are just to lazy to put forth the required effort.

What a load of ****.

 

[idea]

Nice safety net you got there.

Any time some one disagrees, you just tell them it is because they do not believe hard enough.
or that they do not understand deep enough.
Or they are just to lazy to put forth the required effort.

What a load of ****.

having to work for something is a load of *** to you?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Religious beliefs are demonstrable - by their fruits ye shall know them - they are demonstrated through the lives of the followers, through their peace, happiness, character, loyalty, charity, and ability to handle what comes their way.

But that doesn't mean that any of their religious beliefs are actually true. People can be all of those things, but hold completely contradictory beliefs.

you talked about things that are extraordinary, and what it takes to be able to see those things. Extraordinary effort, dedication, education, and training are required to really see those things that are extraordinary.

But you cannot use any of that effort, dedication, education or training to demonstrate that they are true with regards to religious claims.

you're dodging the point - the point is, if you want to see it, you have to test it yourself... you appear unwilling to actually perform the test, and as long as you maintain that attitude, you will be unable to see what is really around you.

What "test" are you talking about? If I did any form of "test" you required me to do, and came to the conclusion that your beliefs still were not true, would you tell me I didn't perform the "test" correctly? In what way can I "test" the truth of a religious claim?

you will never know what apple pie tastes like unless you actually put it into your mouth and taste it... you will never know what love is unless you are willing to be loyal and true to someone for their entire life, you will never know me unless you take the time to get to know me - and you will never know God unless you take the time and effort to know Him.

Why should I get to know something I don't believe exists. Demonstrate that God exists, then I'll put the effort in required to get to know them. Because I know people who say the exact same things about psychic powers, aliens, Vishnu, healing stones, holistic therapy and any other number of extraordinary claims. Why should I believe yours?

It feels as if you are searching for some kind of "get rich quick" scheme - some way to get everything you want without actually having to put the effort into learning it....

You assume I haven't put effort into it? I've researched religion my entire life, I've questioned and searched time and time again. I'm here, on this forum, asking you questions. Don't be so rude as to assume that I am ignorant. I have tried - and I came to the conclusion that God most likely does not exist, and whenever I ask for actual evidence from theists I get a load of pablum that basically amounts to "if you believe it, then you'll believe it".

Well, I don't believe it. Because I have no reason to.

 

[idea]

But that doesn't mean that any of their religious beliefs are actually true. People can be all of those things, but hold completely contradictory beliefs.

Are their beliefs really so contradictory? - link - it seems to me, that for the most important things - like those which are illustrated in the above link - there is agreement on.

But you cannot use any of that effort, dedication, education or training to demonstrate that they are true with regards to religious claims.

Is it true that I am a nice person? we could go around in circles over and over again debating it - you will not know what is true about me, or about anyone, unless you take the time to get to know them yourself.

What "test" are you talking about? If I did any form of "test" you required me to do, and came to the conclusion that your beliefs still were not true, would you tell me I didn't perform the "test" correctly? In what way can I "test" the truth of a religious claim?

the test is to live the principles - here's one example:

******** talked about gaining a testimony. How during one General Conference he was impressed by one of the testimonies of Jesus that was born. A testimony given by someone who had a witness. He said as he listened to that testimony, he gained a desire to obtain for himself, a witness. He went home and prayed making known the desires of his heart. He contemplated his life, and made changes where he felt he needed to. After six month of changing and praying he received his answer. He said late one Friday night, when the house was dark, and quiet, he retired by himself to a bedroom. He there knelt down, once again making known his desires to gain a testimony of Christ. He listed all of the things he had done in the previous months, the things he had changed, and asked for guidance to know what more he needed to do… He said he came out of that bedroom that night a changed man. He admonished us to do what we need to do in order to gain a sure foundation, a sure testimony. That it would be our anchor and our support when we needed one. He left us with his testimony of Jesus Christ, grateful to have served with us, and grateful to be able to continue to serve in God’s Kingdom.

the test is really not that hard - it takes a sincere heart, a willingness to follow Christ, an open mind, patience, dedication... many people, like me (I'm a convert) have joined the church through these simple steps - this simple test -
- read the book of Mormon, say half an hour every day.
- take what you read seriously, allow for the possibility within your mind that it is true, have an open heart about it.
- decide if you could handle living a different lifestyle - to be chaste, adhere to dietary laws, to fill your time with uplifting virtuous things - no R rated movies, no bad language, nothing that celebrates any type of immorality
- while doing the above, you pray sincerely - asking God for a witness if it is true - not demanding, not "my will above thine" not "I think you're a liar and I won't follow you unless you perform magic tricks for me" - but approach him with great humility - I'm nothing, and unworthy of thy Spirit, but I need it - to have a repentant spirit, asking for help, asking to be better - that's what He is interested in, not in showing off His power, but in helping those who genuinely seek help.

do the above experiment for a few months, or a year - however long it takes for you to read through a book (that is much shorter than the Bible by the way) then ask, and receive...

You assume I haven't put effort into it? I've researched religion my entire life, I've questioned and searched time and time again. I'm here, on this forum, asking you questions. Don't be so rude as to assume that I am ignorant. I have tried - and I came to the conclusion that God most likely does not exist, and whenever I ask for actual evidence from theists I get a load of pablum that basically amounts to "if you believe it, then you'll believe it"..

I assume you have not yet felt the Spirit, because you do not yet believe God exists. I wandered around reading books and meeting with different groups for a long time too, before I felt the Spirit, and knew where I was supposed to be. I hope you continue on your journey without drawing conclusions too quickly, life is a journey, not a destination and all that - there is always more to learn, and it's easier to learn if you don't go into everything with a skeptical attitude.

I wish you well on your journey! Have to run, but prayers and blessing being sent your way!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Are their beliefs really so contradictory? - link - it seems to me, that for the most important things - like those which are illustrated in the above link - there is agreement on.

So, you and, let's say, the Westboro Baptist Church don't contradict?

Is it true that I am a nice person? we could go around in circles over and over again debating it - you will not know what is true about me, or about anyone, unless you take the time to get to know them yourself.

And I've been over this already.

the test is to live the principles

That's not a test. That's a demand. I shouldn't have to change my life and my outlook on reality to fit your beliefs into them. If something is true, it is true regardless of whether I believe it or not.

the test is really not that hard - it takes a sincere heart, a willingness to follow Christ, an open mind, patience, dedication...

In other words: you have to already believe it.

To put it simply: no. You have yet to give me any reason why I should.

many people, like me (I'm a convert) have joined the church through these simple steps - this simple test -
- read the book of Mormon, say half an hour every day.

No.

- take what you read seriously, allow for the possibility within your mind that it is true, have an open heart about it.

Already allowed for the possibility, came to the conclusion I have arrived at now.

- decide if you could handle living a different lifestyle - to be chaste, adhere to dietary laws, to fill your time with uplifting virtuous things - no R rated movies, no bad language, nothing that celebrates any type of immorality

No.

- while doing the above, you pray sincerely - asking God for a witness if it is true - not demanding, not "my will above thine" not "I think you're a liar and I won't follow you unless you perform magic tricks for me" - but approach him with great humility - I'm nothing, and unworthy of thy Spirit, but I need it - to have a repentant spirit, asking for help, asking to be better - that's what He is interested in, not in showing off His power, but in helping those who genuinely seek help.

All of these "tests" seem set up so that, even in the extremely unlikely event I did all of these things, if I came to a conclusion that God still didn't most likely exist, you could just shrug it off and say "well, you didn't pray sincerely enough".

No, I want hard evidence. Can you present it to me or not?

do the above experiment for a few months, or a year - however long it takes for you to read through a book (that is much shorter than the Bible by the way) then ask, and receive...

Not a chance. Do you honestly think that that's remotely reasonable? Why don't you go and read the Qur'an for a year, go to Mecca and pray to Allah five times a day. How do you know that the Muslim religion isn't the right one unless you do so, according to your logic?

I assume you have not yet felt the Spirit, because you do not yet believe God exists.

That is correct.

I wandered around reading books and meeting with different groups for a long time too, before I felt the Spirit, and knew where I was supposed to be. I hope you continue on your journey without drawing conclusions too quickly, life is a journey, not a destination and all that - there is always more to learn, and it's easier to learn if you don't go into everything with a skeptical attitude.

Do you understand what skepticism is? It's not believing things for which you don't have a reason to believe them. Asking me not to "go into everything with a skeptical attitude" is asking me to be gullible and believe whatever people tell me. That's not going to happen.

 

[McBell]

having to work for something is a load of *** to you?

nope, not one bit.

however, your claiming that the only reasons I disagree with you is because I am to stupid, or to lazy, or to weak in faith is in fact nothing more than a self serving load of ****.

 

[RogerTheAtheist]

God existing because everything is going with a system.not starting by our bodies systems (Lymphatic System,Nervous System,Reproductive System,Respiratory System,...) and not finishing by The universe systems (Solar system, gravitational system, ..).

...What?

All life has spirit - that's what makes it alive. The difference between something that is alive, and something that is not alive, is that living things have a spirit. I know there are spirits because they are the source of our free will.

I'm not the only one who believes that our mind transmits, rather than produces, our thoughts - link

If something is alive, it has life. Being alive is not evidence for what it commonly referred to as a spirit, which is something that lives on after death. Brains and intelligence are our source of free will; does a person in vegetative state that's alive have free will? Do plants?

I tend to not click on links since I'm not going to watch an hour-long video from each person, but are there any peer-reviewed scientific journals that have published anything confirming that thoughts are transmitted?

I actually have heard an audible voice, (it actually scared the **** out of me, but then that's what the angels told the shepherds too - "fear not", so I'm not the only one who has felt fear) - it was more than just audible though, it came within my ears, but also within my mind - it was both outside, and inside at the same time. a bit like this:

But usually, "feeling" is perhaps the closest word? although feeling does not quite capture it either...

Personal experience is not a valid form of evidence, but there are natural explanations for hearing voices. People have a tendency to seek patterns, whether it's faces in clouds or voices in the wind. You can even listen to a Britney Spears song in reverse and read lyrics to set yourself up for a confirmation bias supporting what the lyrics say. If you're thinking of someone, you're more likely to be susceptible to these kinds of things. When my grandma died, during the viewing several people including myself thought we saw her chest moving up and down and her eyelashes twitching. Why? Because we knew her when she was alive, and her chest and eyelids used to move. The mind seeks patterns; it's part of how the brain interprets signals from the senses. It's very powerful at doing this visually and with sounds as well. It's why hearing a native language is so much easier than hearing a new one; you listen for patterns of things that have been said in the past instead of having to make out each word at a time.

I've been directed on things that were outside my physical ability to know - like being directed to take another route when driving somewhere, and later found I avoided a traffic jam, or being prompted to call someone, and then finding out after I called that they really needed that phone call at that particular time - these small little types of things have happened often enough, that I know these promptings did not come from within me - but from another source.

When I heard an audible voice, I was told something that would happen within my future - something I did not believe would happen at the time - and it happened.... so I am a believer.

These events demonstrate yet another case of the confirmation bias that human beings are so susceptible to. If every ten times something happens, something else happens that's unusually positive or negative, those instances will be remembered, and the others will be blurred into the background. The pattern-seeking mind will think, "Something is going on here," and the confirmation bias will cause the person to seek out instances confirming the assertion and to ignore instances that don't.

This may not be the best example, but let's say I pray to my car keys that I get home safely every night. Time and time again, I get home safely. Instead of focusing on the fact that even without praying to my keys, getting home safely is the ordinary thing to happen, I might choose to see the praying as effective. The keys are answering my prayers! I pray for something, and it happens. But maybe one night I don't get home safely. The keys were testing my faith, had other plans, are running out of power/luck, etc. This is sort of going off on a tangent, but my point is that while the keys answering my prayers is a more fantastic and exciting cause for me getting home safely, I should instead step back and objectively look at all variables.

Interestingly enough, I agree completely. The thing is that all things exist as concepts. And that is the most you can say for sure about anything. You can say, "A thing exists." with surety. Everything after that is speculative and/or arbitrary. In my oh so humble opinion that is

Something's existence can be demonstrated by physical properties and/or how it affects others. In case you might suggest that god has affected countless people throughout history, I'll only go as far to say that belief in god affected those people, just like how belief in Santa causes many children to behave well as Christmas gets closer.

True, but that isn't why you know Dr. Doom is fictional. You know because the creator of Dr. Doom says so. That's a living being that created a character telling you its a fictional character. Not centuries of human belief telling you its not fictional and that it was created 'divinely'. That's a pretty clear distinction between Dr. Doom and God. Personally, I needed a lot more evidence than that to believe, and I assume you are the same given your name. But at face value the concept's existence suggests the literal existence more than it suggests fictional. Luckily, there is a lot more to go on than just this one piece of information. Just as there is for Dr. Doom.

Does Dr. Doom's creator specifically say that he's fictional? If he did, what if he didn't? Furthermore, if he did, what if either Dr. Doom does exist somewhere (and perhaps inspired the character), or what if Dr. Doom really does exist and the author just wants people to think he's fictional?

While few people would actually claim that Dr. Doom is real, the lack of evidence for him, signs of authorship, and similar other fictional stories make disbelief in him justifiable. Belief in him would not be justifiable.

Yet, the same is true of god. There's a lack of evidence for his existence, there are literary reasons to think the authors of the bible had specific intentions (not to mention the NT stories being spread orally for decades before finally being written down), and there are countless other examples of gods being created throughout history. The only main difference is that only the spawns of the Abrahamic god have survived time.

Since the number of people who believe in something doesn't affect whether or not it's true (people used to believe the Earth was flat and the center of the universe), it doesn't matter how many people believe in different versions of the same god, which are arguably different gods. The burden of proof rests with the people making the claim that this god is real.

 

[idea]

I shouldn't have to change my life and my outlook on reality ...

There is a Greek word that goes along with this - Metanoia.
Meta = change (like metastable is a state of flux / change between two states of being)
noia = mind/conscience/how you see reality.
So Metanoia is to experience a chance in how you view reality - a fundamental shift in your outlook. Jesus spent his entire life teaching metanoia - the English translation of this Greek word loses much of it's meaning - metanoia is translated as repent in the NT.

Do you understand what skepticism is? It's not believing things for which you don't have a reason to believe them. Asking me not to "go into everything with a skeptical attitude" is asking me to be gullible and believe whatever people tell me. That's not going to happen.

I am skeptical of some people, but I am not skeptical of God. I know He is real, and it saddens me that others are unwilling to take the journey that will lead them to the same knowledge that I have.