Opinion on Obama's Immigration Executive Action

[Midnight Rain]

My point was not about my friend, but about the fact that American companies exploit the undocumented worker.

Your 2/3 dollar figure may be the case for agricultural workers, but skilled labor such as auto body work may even bring a higher figure than the $10 I quoted, even under the table.

Will comment on the first part of your post later.

Possibly and I am against American companies exploiting undocumented workers.

Sorry, but it is THE argument. Most Americans hold the view that the scenario I presented is 'all in the past', but that is just a convenient way of sweeping the issue of injustice under the rug.

If the Russians or Chinese invaded the US and permanently seized all of the Eastern and Southern states under the guise of a 'legal war', would you just be willing to 'let bygones be bygones'? I don't think so.

If that is the opinion of an individual then that would be an act of war in my mind. Then It would be the responsibility of the US government to take war like action to oppose it. But it isn't a country but on an individual level.

If we were taken over by China and we had rebels do you think that the current country of China owned America after 100 years would or should allow the rebels to simply do as they please?

 

[godnotgod]

If that is the opinion of an individual then that would be an act of war in my mind. Then It would be the responsibility of the US government to take war like action to oppose it. But it isn't a country but on an individual level.

Heh..heh...you don't understand the Mexican point of view, do you? You just think in black and white, legalistic terms. chop here, cut there. Neat. Bloodless. Not.

If we were taken over by China and we had rebels do you think that the current country of China owned America after 100 years would or should allow the rebels to simply do as they please?

Well, DUH! Of course not! An invader is an invader, and will do what is necessary to remain so.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Heh..heh...you don't understand the Mexican point of view, do you? You just think in black and white, legalistic terms. chop here, cut there. Neat. Bloodless. Not.

Explain in more detail the "Mexican point of view".

Well, DUH! Of course not! An invader is an invader, and will do what is necessary to remain so.

/thread.

 

[esmith]

I agree. Americans are the squatters/aggressors on indigenous Indian soil, and should not be eligible for anything. Well, food stamps, maybe.

Hmm, seems that scientific evidence indicates that the Americas were settled by homo sapiens from the "Old World", and this occurred over thousands of years. During this time the "first" inhabitants were replaced by follow on migration. So, it would seem to indicate that your above comments are somewhat, how should I say, inaccurate. However, I will give you a pass, since your statement is based on your obvious attempt to "clutch at straws"
Center for the Study of the First Americans

 

[godnotgod]

Hmm, seems that scientific evidence indicates that the Americas were settled by homo sapiens from the "Old World", and this occurred over thousands of years. During this time the "first" inhabitants were replaced by follow on migration. So, it would seem to indicate that your above comments are somewhat, how should I say, inaccurate. However, I will give you a pass, since your statement is based on your obvious attempt to "clutch at straws"
Center for the Study of the First Americans

My statement is based on documented historical fact. 'Settled' and 'replaced via migration' are not the same as 'aggressively invaded' via a doctrine fully justifying such aggressive invasion, otherwise known as Manifest Destiny. The original post referred to 'squatters'. I am simply turning the tables back to the original squatters/invaders.

When the first homo sapiens arrived on the continent, there were no inhabitants present at the time, so it was not an invasion or a situation of squatting.

Fast forward. National boundaries were established and agreed upon between Mexico and the US, boundaries which the US then deliberately and aggressively violated, in the full knowledge that it would win, as it was in possession of overwhelming firepower. It is this deliberate aggression that is a permanent aspect of the Mexican view of its northern neighbor.

 

[1robin]

I agree. Americans are the squatters/aggressors on indigenous Indian soil, and should not be eligible for anything. Well, food stamps, maybe.

I am an American Indian (Cherokee) and I thank God for the Europeans who built this, the greatest and most benevolent nation in history. There was no nation here for Europeans to occupy, there was a thousand tribal fiefdoms (most of which had only recently been stolen from other tribes). IOW there was no sovereign nation here to jump a fence in order to illegally live in, when the Europeans first came. Hardly an equality with what is going on today. However lets pretend there is some similarity here, where do you stop? Should all Europeans take their trillions and go back to nations they are not from so a bunch of natives can go back to killing each other over land no one has any title to? How about we give the Western united states back to Mexico who used it to tyrannize Indians and whites. After all they only started the war we defeated them in and we only forgive their entire debt and they have done such a good job with the land they have. Heck let's keep your great ideas rolling and let Hitler, Stalin, and the Keiser rule the world because the nation that stopped them you would exterminate. Lets even go further and say everyone must go back and live in N Africa where their ancestors came from. Or how about we do something that makes sense and respect the borders that exist as long as the nations are peaceful? No whining about the right of return to things no one alive ever owned and everyone stays where they are or moves only with traditional permissions granted by competent authorities instead of by the illegal mandates of quasi tyrants rejected by the majority of citizens.

 

[godnotgod]

Explain in more detail the "Mexican point of view".


/thread.

The Mexican POV is that, contrary to American opinion, it is the US that instigated the problem we now face. American propaganda has it that the US won a fair and just war, and even paid Mexico for the loss of its lands. See how wonderful we are? It's all just One Big Lie. Get it?

 

[godnotgod]

Or how about we do something that makes sense and respect the borders that exist as long as the nations are peaceful?

Maybe because we don't respect those borders ourselves. The peaceful border WAS established prior to the Mex/American War. It was the River Nueces, which, as I stated, the US deliberately violated in order to instigate war with Mexico as a means of snatching Texas for slavery. Then the US had the audacity to move the border south to where it is now. So now you want the Mexicans to respect that same illegally contrived border? Maybe in your Land of Fantasy.

 

[godnotgod]

I am an American Indian (Cherokee) and I thank God for the Europeans who built this, the greatest and most benevolent nation in history. There was no nation here for Europeans to occupy, there was a thousand tribal fiefdoms (most of which had only recently been stolen from other tribes). IOW there was no sovereign nation here to jump a fence in order to illegally live in, when the Europeans first came. Hardly an equality with what is going on today. However lets pretend there is some similarity here, where do you stop? Should all Europeans take their trillions and go back to nations they are not from so a bunch of natives can go back to killing each other over land no one has any title to? How about we give the Western united states back to Mexico who used it to tyrannize Indians and whites. After all they only started the war we defeated them in and we only forgive their entire debt and they have done such a good job with the land they have. Heck let's keep your great ideas rolling and let Hitler, Stalin, and the Keiser rule the world because the nation that stopped them you would exterminate. Lets even go further and say everyone must go back and live in N Africa where their ancestors came from. Or how about we do something that makes sense and respect the borders that exist as long as the nations are peaceful? No whining about the right of return to things no one alive ever owned and everyone stays where they are or moves only with traditional permissions granted by competent authorities instead of by the illegal mandates of quasi tyrants rejected by the majority of citizens.

LOL. You claim to be Indian? Indians did not entertain a concept of land ownership. To think about owning the land was equal to owning the Sun, or the wind, or even another human being. If anything, it was the land and your environment that contained and supported you. It was for this very reason that it was so easy for the Americans to rip off Manhattan Island for beads amounting to about $24 at the time.

Not only did the Americans entertain the idea of land ownership, but also the idea of ownership of human beings as slaves, under the color of authority of their Christian God. As for the Indian, he was nothing more than a dog without a soul; sub-human, and not deserving of the equal respect of other human beings.

 

[Midnight Rain]

The Mexican POV is that, contrary to American opinion, it is the US that instigated the problem we now face. American propaganda has it that the US won a fair and just war, and even paid Mexico for the loss of its lands. See how wonderful we are? It's all just One Big Lie. Get it?

I am still waiting for the part that actually matters to the current debate of the United States and dealing with immigrants that are not documented and the process in which we get immirants into the country legally. It doesn't matter if America lied, cheated, stole and hit below the belt to defeat Mexico in a war that was fought over 100 years ago. Its not simply "bygones be bygones" but "its history". I don't agree with the way the US handled the situation but it has no bearings on us now. Its like me asking you for money because your great great great great grandfather stole something from me.

The United States for better or worse is a country. A country that has to have laws and policies. What we decide on those policies is a current issue. Not the fact that it was at fault at some point in time in our history. What they did to Mexico has no weight on illegal immigrants from Panama, Guatemala or in realty Mexico. What the US did to Mexico isn't even close to the worst it has done in its history and its not something I personally like. But it really doesn't make a difference.

 

[godnotgod]

I am still waiting for the part that actually matters to the current debate of the United States and dealing with immigrants that are not documented and the process in which we get immirants into the country legally. It doesn't matter if America lied, cheated, stole and hit below the belt to defeat Mexico in a war that was fought over 100 years ago. Its not simply "bygones be bygones" but "its history". I don't agree with the way the US handled the situation but it has no bearings on us now. Its like me asking you for money because your great great great great grandfather stole something from me.

The United States for better or worse is a country. A country that has to have laws and policies. What we decide on those policies is a current issue. Not the fact that it was at fault at some point in time in our history. What they did to Mexico has no weight on illegal immigrants from Panama, Guatemala or in realty Mexico. What the US did to Mexico isn't even close to the worst it has done in its history and its not something I personally like. But it really doesn't make a difference.

Keep repeating that. Eventually you will convince yourself that it is actually the case. Unfortunately, you completely ignore the victims of the American injustice, and so, here we are, faced with the issues you think are the fault of the victim.

I am telling you right now that you are not going to simply pooh pooh the background to the issue in the manner you think you can. It simply won't just 'go away', and to think you can 'fix' it with more controls is naive.

Here. Maybe a little self education is in order, so that you can see the question from the POV of those you wish to neatly regulate and control:

The Hispanic Experience - Stolen Birthright

 

[Midnight Rain]

Keep repeating that. Eventually you will convince yourself that it is actually the case. Unfortunately, you completely ignore the victims of the American injustice, and so, here we are, faced with the issues you think are the fault of the victim.

I am telling you right now that you are not going to simply pooh pooh the background to the issue in the manner you think you can. It simply won't just 'go away', and to think you can 'fix' it with more controls is naive.

Here. Maybe a little self education is in order, so that you can see the question from the POV of those you wish to neatly regulate and control:

The Hispanic Experience - Stolen Birthright

Except it is true. People are slighted and that is terrible. But we aren't lining up white slaves for African American families for retribution. And in the same way that immigration laws have to be kept in check. What those immigration laws are and how they are handled is what is at the debate. We are not taking into consideration that Mexico lost the war.

What exactly do you propose and why exactly do you propose it?

 

[godnotgod]

I don't agree with the way the US handled the situation but it has no bearings on us now. Its like me asking you for money because your great great great great grandfather stole something from me.

Poor analogy. In this case, 'grandfather' is the same person alive and in control who did the original stealing. Besides, money or goods are one thing; land quite another. Land is the very thing that you live on, that supports you both physically and biologically. And so, being land, and that land being what is is now what it was when it was stolen, is, in the mind of the victim, still theirs. So where does the 'illegal' part come in, if not on the side of the thief? Just sayin'....

 

[metis]

Why don't you and Obama go home open up your back door and anyone who sneaks in you can grant them amnesty and make them entitled to benefits your family receives at the expense of your family. How is a squatter eligible for anything?

You are virtually ignoring the bigger picture, namely that of blatant hypocrisy.

 

[godnotgod]

Except it is true. People are slighted and that is terrible. But we aren't lining up white slaves for African American families for retribution. And in the same way that immigration laws have to be kept in check. What those immigration laws are and how they are handled is what is at the debate. We are not taking into consideration that Mexico lost the war.

What exactly do you propose and why exactly do you propose it?

I have not even proposed anything yet, if at all. The issue may, in fact, not be able to be addressed in a just and fair manner, considering it has arrived via the conditions that propelled it into place.

America did, for example, acknowledge and apologize for the government experiments with syphillis it executed on Afro-Americans. Maybe it can start by officially acknowledging its land grab of Mexican territory. That would be a start.

The issue is not that Mexico lost the war. It is that the US instigated it, stole lands not belonging to them, forced a new border, and then expects Mexico to respect that same border. You are talking legality. I am talking reality.

Slighted? Ha ha ha.. were it only so trivial as that. 1/3 of Mexico's northern territories, along with her blood and treasure, can hardly be called a 'slight'. More of a 'sleight of hand'.

 

[Midnight Rain]

I have not even proposed anything yet, if at all. The issue may, in fact, not be able to be addressed in a just and fair manner, considering it has arrived via the conditions that propelled it into place.

America did, for example, acknowledge and apologize for the government experiments with syphillis it executed on Afro-Americans. Maybe it can start by officially acknowledging its land grab of Mexican territory. That would be a start.

But this is on the issue of immigration. It would be nice for America to admit all its wrongs in an official apology. However that doesn't really get us anywhere in this thread or on the topic.

I personally have had difficulty with the Illegal immigration because my mother is an Irish Immigrant and my grandfather on my father's side is an Immigrant that received a great deal of persecution and discrimination. Yet he came here legally. As did my mother. They were impoverished for generations prior and they managed to cross the Atlantic ocean, jump through all of the hoops and find a job despite racism and discrimination to eventually carve out a life for their children.

So it irritates me when individuals who have jumped over the boarder want free amnesty. I welcome anyone to America but to do it legally and I also agree we need to find a way to make the process easier.

 

[godnotgod]

But this is on the issue of immigration. It would be nice for America to admit all its wrongs in an official apology. However that doesn't really get us anywhere in this thread or on the topic.

I personally have had difficulty with the Illegal immigration because my mother is an Irish Immigrant and my grandfather on my father's side is an Immigrant that received a great deal of persecution and discrimination. Yet he came here legally. As did my mother. They were impoverished for generations prior and they managed to cross the Atlantic ocean, jump through all of the hoops and find a job despite racism and discrimination to eventually carve out a life for their children.

So it irritates me when individuals who have jumped over the boarder want free amnesty. I welcome anyone to America but to do it legally and I also agree we need to find a way to make the process easier.

And yet it is OK that the same border you refer to was established illegally by the country that wants to prop itself up as being just and fair?

The Mexican national is only crossing illegal boundaries onto what he sees as his own land. In the mind of the Mexican, he is not doing anything wrong or illegal. He's just violating what is illegal to begin with. Don't you get that?

Mexico did not freely agree to the establishment of the current border, so where do you see it as being legitimate or legal?

America did not invade and steal land from Ireland as they did with Mexico. Analogy unacceptable.

Being Irish, you may be interested to know that the Irish soldiers fighting on the American side against Mexico were discriminated against and mistreated by the American soldiers, so they defected en masse to the Mexican side, and gave their lives for Mexico against the US. They became known to the Mexicans as 'Los San Patricianos', and highly revered and honored for their sacrifices by Mexico to this day.

 

[ShivaFan]

Several Democratic senators have been critical of Obama for taking executive action rather than letting Congress take the lead on the issue. If six or seven joined Republicans, they could block Obama's action, forcing a veto.

Four Democratic Senators went public in statements late last week that they oppose Obama using the executive order, they include Missouri Sen. Claire McCaskill, Indiana Sen. Joe Donnelly, West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin, North Dakota Sen. Heidi Heitkamp.

 

[metis]

So it irritates me when individuals who have jumped over the boarder want free amnesty. I welcome anyone to America but to do it legally and I also agree we need to find a way to make the process easier.

If U.S. policy in this area was consistent with the facts, I would totally agree with you. But the reality is that our policy dealing with the issue of illegal immigration is schizophrenic. We enjoy their labor, which fills jobs most home-grown Americans don't want; they help keep our food prices lower; they provide labor in many other areas as well; they pay taxes; they have a lower crime rate than the average; etc. But then some say "Go home!", but if that were to happen en masse,the U.S. would take a major economic hit.

And if anyone doubts that the R's are unwilling to deal with this issue in an adult manner, let me mention just one name to clearly show that they won't: Marco Rubio. If you remember the R reaction with his immigration proposal, hardly anyone in the party is now willing to even touch this issue with a 10 foot pole.

 

[metis]

Several Democratic senators have been critical of Obama for taking executive action rather than letting Congress take the lead on the issue. If six or seven joined Republicans, they could block Obama's action, forcing a veto.

Four Democratic Senators went public in statements late last week that they oppose Obama using the executive order, they include Missouri Sen. Claire McCaskill, Indiana Sen. Joe Donnelly, West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin, North Dakota Sen. Heidi Heitkamp.

Did you by chance notice which kind of states they're from?