Opinions on Spanking

[Nanda]

By the way I have begun to notice that Atheists tend to talk about science as though it is God! Has anyone else realized this? Science is all knowing. It solves all of our issues and is always right

You're completely off-topic, and being abusive. That's frowned upon here.

 

[Kathryn]

You know that anecdotes are not evidence, right? For this to be useful, we'd need to see how you would have turned out had they NOT spanked you. Possibly even more accomplished, mature and integrated. We don't know. So it's not useful data. You should know that.

Is there anyone in your family who doesn't spank their kids?

I understand this. However, in real life we draw not only from research but also from personal experience.

To live a balanced life, I think we have to take both aspects into consideration.

 

[Autodidact]

all kinds of differant methods work just fine. We dont need to abuse and get ****** at others methods...By the way I have begun to notice that Atheists tend to talk about science as though it is God! Has anyone else realized this? Science is all knowing. It solves all of our issues and is always right

Really? Atheists assert that we should believe science despite there being no evidence for it? They say that science is an authority that should be followed even when all the evidence indicates to the contrary? That something is right because it appeared in a book 2000 years ago? I haven't noticed that.

What is your view of science, does it generally work, or not? Is it a good way to learn about the natural world, or not?

Did someone assert that science is always right? I missed that too.

 

[Autodidact]

I understand this. However, in real life we draw not only from research but also from personal experience.

To live a balanced life, I think we have to take both aspects into consideration.

My personal experience is that spanking is completely unnecessary, and most often resorted to by parents who have not learned more effective parenting methods. My personal experience is that spanking is counter-productive, because it undermines the three most important tools in parenting: love, example and trust. I don't expect you to rely on my personal experience, though, unless it is corroborated by existing research, which it is.

 

[Aquitaine]

My personal experience is that spanking is completely unnecessary, and most often resorted to by parents who have not learned more effective parenting methods. My personal experience is that spanking is counter-productive, because it undermines the three most important tools in parenting: love, example and trust. I don't expect you to rely on my personal experience, though, unless it is corroborated by existing research, which it is.

But there's more to it though than just "spanking parents". It's not all so black & white, parents who spank can be totally different from each other, even if they both spank. Their technques and parenting ways can differ too, and the "spanking" itself can be different: i.e, some agree with using "tools" and repeatedly spanking as a first resort, others (like me) believe in a reserved use of a single, open-handed spank accross the back of the thigh/bum, to be used only in certain circumstances (i.e if the child hits you, or has been found hitting another child - and in such a situation, you yourself even said earlier that you'd hit them back twice as hard).

You need to be more clear with what you, and the science journalists define by "spanking" first.

Saying spanking is always, 100% bad in all circumstances is like saying the same for drinking Alcohol - but there are exceptions, and certain causes where it can have some "good" to it.

 

[Autodidact]

But there's more to it though than just "spanking parents". It's not all so black & white, parents who spank can be totally different from each other, even if they both spank. Their technques and parenting ways can differ too, and the "spanking" itself can be different: i.e, some agree with using "tools" and repeatedly spanking as a first resort, others (like me) believe in a reserved use of a single, open-handed spank accross the back of the thigh/bum, to be used only in certain circumstances (i.e if the child hits you, or has been found hitting another child - and in such a situation, you yourself even said earlier that you'd hit them back twice as hard).

You need to be more clear with what you, and the science journalists define by "spanking" first.

Saying spanking is always, 100% bad in all circumstances is like saying the same for drinking Alcohol - but there are exceptions, and certain causes where it can have some "good" to it.

Science doesn't much deal in absolutes. The question is, in general, does spanking help or harm? The existing research indicates that it tends to harm. So why do it? It tends to undermine discipline. In general, kids who are spanked tend to behave worse than kids who are spanked, and tend to have a worse outcome as adults.

Why is it so important to some people to try to rescue the practice of hitting their kids? What's your investment in it? Why not just go with the research?

I wonder if there aren't still a lot of people who see a dichotomy: either spank, or no discipline. What they fail to see is that good parents have much better tools at their disposal than spanking, and you can be a strict, even (like me) mean parents, without it.

 

[Aquitaine]

Science doesn't much deal in absolutes. The question is, in general, does spanking help or harm? The existing research indicates that it tends to harm. So why do it? It tends to undermine discipline. In general, kids who are spanked tend to behave worse than kids who are spanked, and tend to have a worse outcome as adults.

Why is it so important to some people to try to rescue the practice of hitting their kids? What's your investment in it? Why not just go with the research?

I wonder if there aren't still a lot of people who see a dichotomy: either spank, or no discipline. What they fail to see is that good parents have much better tools at their disposal than spanking, and you can be a strict, even (like me) mean parents, without it.

Just to clarify, no, I don't believe that a lack of spanking = no discipline. I think there is an old saying "Spare the Rod and spoil the Child" or something along those lines, which I don't agree with.

Why do I defend it? Well, the same reason anyone would defend any other parenting method(s): I still think that under certain circumstances it can be good, and it's those little things that build up into a large pile. It's so very micro-based, in that many things can be "good" in moderation. One should never take an absolutist approach or veiwpoint of something: just 'cause I "support spanking" doesn't mean I "want parents to hit kids constantly with a tool, and not bother teaching them valuable lessons in life". No more than just because one drinks Alcohol it makes them an Alcoholic.

But besides, probably the main reason is because of how complicated upbringing is. As if our own existence as a whole is not complicated enough, I think it's just too simplistic to say "spanking = bad, non-spanking = good" or "non-spanking = better people". There are so many circumstances involved in our upbringing that can affect us, and the way you come accross is that you think every person who is spanked will have a lower IQ and be a criminal. I myself was spanked (although I will admit sometimes I was spanked wrongly) but overall it helped me to behave when I'd normally just ignore the softer warnings/approaches from my Mother.

But if you seriously think that I'd havea higher IQ if I weren't spanked, then I'd have to sincerely disagree, and I'd probably feel......er... "offended" to a small degree.

 

[Autodidact]

My point is not just that it doesn't work, but it's actively counter-productive. It makes your children mind you less, not more. Why? Because it reduces your bond with them, reduces their trust for you, and reduces your ability to role-model. These are your three strongest parenting tools. Why would you want to reduce them?

Obviously, if you're trying to teach your kids not to hit, then hitting them not only is not an effective way to do it, it does just the opposite. Teach your kids to hit others--spank them.

Your options are not: spanking or "soft warnings/approaches." Your mother had many other options available to her. She could make your life plenty miserable without spanking you.

O.K., for example, this morning, my kid wanted ramen in her lunch, and wanted to cook it herself. I let her start. She argued with me when I told her how, so I said I would do it. She argued with me about that, so now she doesn't have ramen in her lunch. She got it together and apologized enough to get breakfast, which was next on the list. I could have spanked her, but I didn't need to. As usual, I, the parent, have all the marbles. It's my stove, my ramen, and my breakfast. My way, she sees that if she wants her way, she has to cooperate, which is a good lesson.

Had I spanked her, it would tend to make her rebel, not want to cooperate with me, and, worst of all, undermine her desire to bond with me and emulate me.

You keep saying that science assumes always, 100%, absolute, every person etc. It doesn't. We just get general tendencies, such as that in general, spanking will tend to reduce IQ and increase criminality. So, again, why do it?

You may or may not have had a higher IQ had you not been spanked, we don't know. (WHy would that offend you???) We know it doesn't help, and in 1000 kids, will tend to have that effect.

Since it makes parenting harder, and has negative effects, why do it?

 

[Aquitaine]

My point is not just that it doesn't work, but it's actively counter-productive. It makes your children mind you less, not more. Why? Because it reduces your bond with them, reduces their trust for you, and reduces your ability to role-model. These are your three strongest parenting tools. Why would you want to reduce them?

I don't think anyone can "measure" trust, and how well one can "role-model" for others. Of course, in extreme cases, like if the parents are total nutjobs then yeah, but from my own experience my Dad was the spanker, and my Mum was the softer. Generally speaking, I trust my Dad more than her - not that I don't trust her though, but my Dad (being a Police Officer too) was a very good role-model to me and I'm thankfull for it. So when I (relating to my own childhood experiences) see people say "Oh well, spanking reduces kid's trust and is bad role-modelling" etc, I'm inclined to disagree.

Obviously, if you're trying to teach your kids not to hit, then hitting them not only is not an effective way to do it, it does just the opposite. Teach your kids to hit others--spank them.

But didn't you say in a post earlier in this thread that if one of your children hit you, you'd hit them back twice as hard? Or am I thinking of someone else/misread you?

You keep saying that science assumes always, 100%, absolute, every person etc. It doesn't. We just get general tendencies, such as that in general, spanking will tend to reduce IQ and increase criminality. So, again, why do it?

Because, regardless if it does so to other kids, it doesn't mean the same for mine - my influence isn't gonna be identical to everyone elses, the same exists for you and all parents. If I start to notice a pattern of negative responces to spanking then I will adjust it accordingly (i.e. stop spanking), if I find positive effects then I won't abondon it. Besides, I don't support spanking as a first resort, and I'd do the same as you in all the circumstances you mentioned (like the cooking one just then). I'm not a supporter of spanking as a first resort, I've said this so many times now.

(WHy would that offend you???)

Well, "offend" was the wrong word. It just seems kinda patronising to me, like "Awww, hey here little Timmy, had your parents not spanked you and copied my parenting skills then you'd have turned out way smarter, and a better person too!".

 

[Breathe]

-- Mod Advisory --

Let's keep this thread on topic and avoid any personal remarks now, shall we?

Thank you!

-- End of Mod Advisory --
​

 

[Humanistheart]

How the heck did the topic of child abuse (spanking children) turn into science vs god?

The phycological and sociaological facts are clear, spanking has far more negatives than positives. If there are people on here trying to argue that hitting your child is a good thing you need mental help, or at least some level of education. Wow. I mean wow.

 

[Kathryn]

There's a huge difference between "spanking" a child (a couple of whacks on the buttocks administered in a calm but firm manner for a specific reason that the child understands) vs BEATING a child. Huge, huge difference.

I never spanked my children in any sort of angry or uncontrolled manner. Never. I never injured them in any way. I never bruised them or abused them.

I tell you what WAS upsetting to them however. I spanked my youngest son, who was 8 at the time, one morning right before school because he had disobeyed me all weekend by refusing to clean up his closet. He had been warned, he had been punished - for some reason he just dug in his heels and refused to finish this simple task. Then he lied and told me it was done and when I went to check it - voila - it was still a wreck. So finally, I spanked him.

He was pouty when he got to school about 20 minutes later (we lived right around the corner from his school). His teacher asked him what was wrong and he told her he had gotten a spanking that morning.

This teacher immediately called Child Protective Services. My kids were in three different schools. Within 1 hour, CPS officers had descended on the schools and taken my kids out of their classes and interviewed them. AFTER the interviews, a CPS officer called me at work and "interviewed" me over the phone. She then told me that based on the accounts by me and by my children, they were dropping the case and no further action was needed - they had found no evidence of abuse.

I cannot tell you how much this upset my children - and me. My kids were devastated - they thought they were going to be taken away from our home, my youngest was mortified that "he had brought this on us," and was in tears the rest of the day. I received this call AT WORK - I was embarrassed and shocked by this.

I called his teacher and asked for an explanation. She told me that she is personally opposed to spanking and that if she ever found out that I had spanked my kids again, she would report me again. Now - this was a woman I had never met before. My son was a polite and sweet student. She had no reason to believe that he was neglected or abused - but she was personally opposed to spanking.

She told me that she had never spanked her only child and that she didn't believe in it. (I later found out that her child was in jail.)

I told her that if my son ever lied like that to me again, I would spank him again, and if she reported me again, I would see her in court.

Unbelievable.

 

[Rogue Cardinal]

There's a huge difference between "spanking" a child (a couple of whacks on the buttocks administered in a calm but firm manner for a specific reason that the child understands) vs BEATING a child. Huge, huge difference.

I never spanked my children in any sort of angry or uncontrolled manner. Never. I never injured them in any way. I never bruised them or abused them.

I tell you what WAS upsetting to them however. I spanked my youngest son, who was 8 at the time, one morning right before school because he had disobeyed me all weekend by refusing to clean up his closet. He had been warned, he had been punished - for some reason he just dug in his heels and refused to finish this simple task. Then he lied and told me it was done and when I went to check it - voila - it was still a wreck. So finally, I spanked him.

He was pouty when he got to school about 20 minutes later (we lived right around the corner from his school). His teacher asked him what was wrong and he told her he had gotten a spanking that morning.

This teacher immediately called Child Protective Services. My kids were in three different schools. Within 1 hour, CPS officers had descended on the schools and taken my kids out of their classes and interviewed them. AFTER the interviews, a CPS officer called me at work and "interviewed" me over the phone. She then told me that based on the accounts by me and by my children, they were dropping the case and no further action was needed - they had found no evidence of abuse.

I cannot tell you how much this upset my children - and me. My kids were devastated - they thought they were going to be taken away from our home, my youngest was mortified that "he had brought this on us," and was in tears the rest of the day. I received this call AT WORK - I was embarrassed and shocked by this.

I called his teacher and asked for an explanation. She told me that she is personally opposed to spanking and that if she ever found out that I had spanked my kids again, she would report me again. Now - this was a woman I had never met before. My son was a polite and sweet student. She had no reason to believe that he was neglected or abused - but she was personally opposed to spanking.

She told me that she had never spanked her only child and that she didn't believe in it. (I later found out that her child was in jail.)

I told her that if my son ever lied like that to me again, I would spank him again, and if she reported me again, I would see her in court.

Unbelievable.

I can't stand people like that. I believe people like that should be spanked when the case gets dropped! hehehe