Original Sin

[waitasec]

I proved it wrong.. Even gave cross references to refute your claim. All you could give was a hypothetical, that even if it supported you (which it didn't), had no merit, because "same day" is not specified in the text. Neither is "next day," or "ground shipping."

so did is adam going to hell?

 

[Willamena]

I was quite clear in a previous post that this entire discussion occurs in the abstract for me. No, there were no Adam and Eve. This is entirely a critique/discussion of the Hebrew/Christian myth, and the errors it contains.

I'm curious to see if anyone actually agrees with you.

Well, I could argue with HH, but I would just argue a better interpretation of the myth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The denomination of being christian? What do you mean?

I mean that the term "denomination" just refers to the categories of beliefs that make up the broad spectrum of Christianity. A Christian saying "I don't have a denomination" makes as much sense as saying "oh, yes, I'm on the rainbow, but I don't have a colour."

 

[Sleeppy]

Well, I could argue with HH, but I would just argue a better interpretation of the myth.

'Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'

HH thinks that the above quote has a time constraint attached to it (that day). I don't see it. Do you agree with him that there is a time constraint?

 

[waitasec]

HH thinks that the above quote has a time constraint attached to it (that day). I don't see it. Do you agree with him that there is a time constraint?

i believe Heathen Hammer supported his argument.

Where does it say 'not the same day', I'm not seeing it.

The implicit concept is that something you eat will slay you, as an immediate result.

[Later edit]
Better yet, God's own words, from Hebrew:
Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the
knowledge of good and
evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou
eatest thereof thou shalt
surely die.


IN THE DAY

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8166

 

[jasonwill2]

so god lied to adam and eve since they didnt die that day? wait, what?

 

[waitasec]

so god lied to adam and eve since they didnt die that day? wait, what?

alarming, isn't it?
:sarcastic

 

[Cesar]

It was not a lie that they'd die. They did die, spiritually. Like us, they became depraved, because they were now sinful and fallen from their original state. That is why Christ said one must be born again (spiritually, as He also points out to Nicodemus) to enter Heaven.

 

[Sleeppy]

Where does it say 'not the same day', I'm not seeing it.

The implicit concept is that something you eat will slay you, as an immediate result.

[Later edit]
Better yet, God's own words, from Hebrew:
Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the
knowledge of good and
evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou
eatest thereof thou shalt
surely die.


IN THE DAY

Just now seeing this edit. I'll admit, good point. But I found a better answer.

Genesis 2:4 These [are] births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens.

Obviously, this says "in the day," but we know that this is not literal, because 2:3 mentions the seventh day of creation. There are probably several references like this.

Also a good read: Genesis 2:17

Results of a simple Google search.

 

[waitasec]

It was not a lie that they'd die. They did die, spiritually. Like us, they became depraved, because they were now sinful and fallen from their original state. That is why Christ said one must be born again (spiritually, as He also points out to Nicodemus) to enter Heaven.

so then if god knew he would be offering himself in order to acquire eternal life then yes he did lie...

do you think a & e are/were not able to attain this offer we have?

 

[Sleeppy]

i believe Heathen Hammer supported his argument.

Genesis - Chapter 2 (Parshah Berei****) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

It's also quite silly to assume that any Jewish scholar - or anyone practicing Judaism - would agree that God lied and they should've physically died that day.

Same for any Christians or Christian scholars. Just want to point that out.

 

[Cesar]

so then if god knew he would be offering himself in order to acquire eternal life then yes he did lie...

do you think a & e are/were not able to attain this offer we have?

Whether or not Adam and Eve were eventually saved remains ambiguous to me for now, as I haven't read about it.

I don't understand your first statement.

 

[waitasec]

Just now seeing this edit. I'll admit, good point. But I found a better answer.



Obviously, this says "in the day," but we know that this is not literal, because 2:3 mentions the seventh day of creation. There are probably several references like this.

Also a good read: Genesis 2:17

Results of a simple Google search.

why isn't it literal?

 

[Sleeppy]

why isn't it literal?

Because 2:3 (the verse directly before) mentions the seventh day of creation.

 

[waitasec]

Whether or not Adam and Eve were eventually saved remains ambiguous to me for now, as I haven't read about it.

fair enough

I don't understand your first statement.

what i mean is this..
if the disobedience of a & e resulted in us dying spiritually, then god must have known that he would be providing a way to reconcile eternal life through his sacrifice, right? therefore "you shall surely die" doesn't hold water with regards to the atonetment that jesus supposedly provided and makes god a liar.

 

[waitasec]

Because 2:3 (the verse directly before) mentions the seventh day of creation.

so?

 

[Cesar]

fair enough



what i mean is this..
if the disobedience of a & e resulted in us dying spiritually, then god must have known that he would be providing a way to reconcile eternal life through his sacrifice, right? therefore "you shall surely die" doesn't hold water with regards to the atonetment that jesus supposedly provided and makes god a liar.

yes, God did know He would sacrificed Himself for humanity. As a matter of fact, that was the very purpose of man's fall. How does it make Him a liar when He said they would die and they did indeed die?

 

[waitasec]

It's also quite silly to assume that any Jewish scholar - or anyone practicing Judaism - would agree that God lied and they should've physically died that day.

Same for any Christians or Christian scholars. Just want to point that out.

but you are looking at this account through a christian perspective...
the jewish tradition does not believe in original sin, from what i understand.

 

[waitasec]

yes, God did know He would sacrificed Himself for humanity. As a matter of fact, that was the very purpose of man's fall. How does it make Him a liar when He said they would die and they did indeed die?

because "you shall surely die" doesn't necessarily happen?

 

[Sleeppy]

so?

Obviously, it can't be referring to one day, if there were seven. Or vice versa.