Original Sin

[Heathen Hammer]

Um, yeah no



what?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Original sin, is a strange concept that only Christians are able to read into the Adam and Eve fable.
We all born sinless.
We are also born with free will.
It is this ability to chose that enables us to sin. It has nothing to do with any part of Genesis.
We have equal ability to sin or not to sin. there is no inherent trend either way.

The concept of the Devil is simply an excuse for our own lack of strength in the face of temptation.

Men and women are all suficiently intelligent to know right from wrong. Only the mentaly sick have no such ability. The Evil doers and other criminals know what they are doing, and that it is wrong. The devil plays no part in it.

The sin that we, and they do, is down to us. We have the ability to repent our sin and God the power to forgive.

 

[Pegg]

Here is something that bugs me and I would like to discuss. It seems that Christianity (perhaps other religions also, I am unsure) teaches that we are born with "original sin", which is inherited because of Adam and Eve's sin in the Garden of Eden. WE are held responsible for the sins of SOMEONE ELSE. I cannot see how this belief makes sense.

First, if god is loving and forgiving, why would he hold an everlasting grudge against humans? If it is so that we must accept Christ, it seems kind of like a set up...

Second, why should we even be held responsible for the sins of another in general? Nobody is responsible for the sins of another in any other case outside of this one. Why is this one held against all of humanity? Again, it seems like a set up.

Discuss

the scriptures actually say that even though mankind did not sin ''in the likeness of Adam' they are still plagued by the consequences of Adams sin.

So you are right, it is not the original sin that we have inherited, but it is the original ''consequences' of that sin that we inherit and that is due to genetics... not a curse, but the fact that Adam was condemned to die, it was put into his genetics and those genetics are what we have inherited.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Bible does not say we are responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve or anyone else.

It does say that God will hold us accountable for the sins of our parents and ancestors:

Exodus 20:5:

for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

It says that because we are human we inherit the sin nature or propensity to sin. Everyone expresses in one way or another their sinful nature and commits their own sins.There is a big difference.

Original Sin is more than that, though; it's something that by itself warrants eternal punishment in Hell... hence the necessity of baptism.

Actually, while it's not an issue since my separation, this was a major point of contention between my wife and me, and a major disagreement I have with the Catholic Church. It actually got to the point where I declared that I wouldn't attend any baptism for any child of ours; I wanted to have no part of a ceremony that implied (IMO) that my (hypothetical) newborn baby was a little ball of evil in need of "fixing".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

the scriptures actually say that even though mankind did not sin ''in the likeness of Adam' they are still plagued by the consequences of Adams sin.

So you are right, it is not the original sin that we have inherited, but it is the original ''consequences' of that sin that we inherit and that is due to genetics... not a curse, but the fact that Adam was condemned to die, it was put into his genetics and those genetics are what we have inherited.

So... bad behaviour creates inheritable traits?

Lamarckism dies hard, apparently.

 

[Pegg]

So... bad behaviour creates inheritable traits?

Lamarckism dies hard, apparently.

actually it does and culture is the proof that it does.

violence during childhood can make a person more prone to resort to violence later in life. The parenting we learn from our own parents is usually the way we parent our own children (even the parts we hated our parents for)

So yes i believe that bad behavior is passed on most certainly.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

So... bad behaviour creates inheritable traits?

Lamarckism dies hard, apparently.

An interesting conundrum about Lamarckism is that we humans could, theoretically, create gene therapy to expunge Original Sin from our bodies ourselves and thus recreate ourselves outside of God's plan.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

actually it does and culture is the proof that it does.

violence during childhood can make a person more prone to resort to violence later in life. The parenting we learn from our own parents is usually the way we parent our own children (even the parts we hated our parents for)

So yes i believe that bad behavior is passed on most certainly.

I believe he meant inheritable in the sense of passing it on physiologically to an offspring who could not have observed or learned it; what you describe is learned behavior.

 

[Pegg]

I believe he meant inheritable in the sense of passing it on physiologically to an offspring who could not have observed or learned it; what you describe is learned behavior.

isnt that how culture is passed on? Some nations have strong ideas on certain matters and those ideas are purely psychological... children are most certainly conditioned by their parents

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

actually it does and culture is the proof that it does.

violence during childhood can make a person more prone to resort to violence later in life. The parenting we learn from our own parents is usually the way we parent our own children (even the parts we hated our parents for)

So yes i believe that bad behavior is passed on most certainly.

You specifically said "genetic" before, though. Is any of what you just described genetic?

In the case you describe, if we change the environment that the children grow up in, then they'll lose those negative traits that their ancestors had. IOW, there's nothing that starts out innate about learned behaviour, even if it's taught by parents to their children.

In the case of Original Sin, it seemed like you were saying that no matter what we do as humans it'll always be with us, so I think you're talking about two different effects here.

An interesting conundrum about Lamarckism is that we humans could, theoretically, create gene therapy to expunge Original Sin from our bodies ourselves and thus recreate ourselves outside of God's plan.

Interesting point.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

isnt that how culture is passed on? Some nations have strong ideas on certain matters and those ideas are purely psychological... children are most certainly conditioned by their parents

"Inheritable" does not necessarily imply "genetic". Again, you specifically said that sin was genetic. Did you misspeak?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I think I used the wrong term. I believe that he meant passed down via the genes, so that it is a physically ingrained 'habit' rather than what you describe, which is a learned trait that would/might not have been used if the inheritor didn't literally 'observe' it occurring.

Yes you are right, culture is passed on via observation, but I believe Penguin meant the opposite.

[edit] well heck Penguin is 'online', they can answer!

 

[Pegg]

"Inheritable" does not necessarily imply "genetic". Again, you specifically said that sin was genetic. Did you misspeak?

i said the ''consequençes' of sin is genetic

What are the consequences?

old age and death. Death was Adams punishment. It is genetic that we die, the scriptures say that God put at 'limit' on mans lifespan.

 

[rusra02]

Here is something that bugs me and I would like to discuss. It seems that Christianity (perhaps other religions also, I am unsure) teaches that we are born with "original sin", which is inherited because of Adam and Eve's sin in the Garden of Eden. WE are held responsible for the sins of SOMEONE ELSE. I cannot see how this belief makes sense.

First, if god is loving and forgiving, why would he hold an everlasting grudge against humans? If it is so that we must accept Christ, it seems kind of like a set up...

Second, why should we even be held responsible for the sins of another in general? Nobody is responsible for the sins of another in any other case outside of this one. Why is this one held against all of humanity? Again, it seems like a set up.

Discuss

It is important to realize first that God does not owe us life. He could have immediately executed Adam and Eve, and we would never have had the opportunity to live or come to know God. God purposed instead to show mercy to Adam's offspring, while still maintaining his righteous standards. The Bible explains: "The wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus, our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
It is not the case that we are held accountable for the sins of another. Rather, Adam could not give to his offspring what he no longer possessed. Thus, Romans 5:12 explains: "Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Adam sold himself and his unborn offspring into slavery to sin and death. However, God does not charge Adam's sin against us. Otherwise, we would have no hope, as Adam has no hope.

As the life Giver, God has the right to decide to whom he gives life and his requirements for those who will receive the gift of everlasting life. Romans 8:20-22 explains: "For the creation [redeemable mankind] was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now."
God's righteousness and his Sovereignty are more important than man's salvation.
Nevertheless, God loves us and wants us to live. (John 3:16)

 

[InChrist]

There's no difference. The presence of that sinful nature is a direct punishment for Adam and Eve's transgression. You are simply rewording it to avoid this obvious problem. Because you recognize it, and realize it's actually unjust.

We would not have the propensity to sin, were it not for this punishment.

I disagree, the sinful nature is not the punishment, death is the punishment for sin. Humans willfully sin of their own accord against God and others.

 

[waitasec]

The Bible does not say we are responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve or anyone else. It says that because we are human we inherit the sin nature or propensity to sin. Everyone expresses in one way or another their sinful nature and commits their own sins.There is a big difference.

the sin is being aware of ones own actions... attaining the knowledge of good and evil.
something of which god did not want for us to acquire.

 

[InChrist]

It does say that God will hold us accountable for the sins of our parents and ancestors:

Exodus 20:5:

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." Ezekiel 18:20

The context of the passage you cited and the one above shows there is a difference between the ramifications of sin on those in the physical world or for eternity. The consequences of sin may very well impact successive generations in this life, but each person only faces the consequences of their own sin for eternity.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Original Sin is more than that, though; it's something that by itself warrants eternal punishment in Hell... hence the necessity of baptism.

Actually, while it's not an issue since my separation, this was a major point of contention between my wife and me, and a major disagreement I have with the Catholic Church. It actually got to the point where I declared that I wouldn't attend any baptism for any child of ours; I wanted to have no part of a ceremony that implied (IMO) that my (hypothetical) newborn baby was a little ball of evil in need of "fixing".

[/QUOTE]


You are expressing the Catholic view of Original sin. I was raised Catholic, but rejected many of those teachings years ago believing them to be contrary to the biblical scriptures. I don't see that the scriptures indicate anything other than Christ to "fix" anyone and any child must be at least old enough to understand that.

 

[InChrist]

the sin is being aware of ones own actions... attaining the knowledge of good and evil.
something of which god did not want for us to acquire.

I don't believe it is that God did not want us to be aware or have understanding of good and evil, which He would have taught humans to understand in His own good time and way. I believe He did not want humans to learn about sin by participating in it, which they did and we do.

 

[1137]

I think it's fair to say that nearly everyone is born selfish, greedy and corrupt to some degree - it's just human nature.

however, if we follow the teachings of the Bible then we can change into better people.

Satan has entered into human DNA and needs to be fought off by believing in Christ.

You only believe this because it has been so ingrained into your mind. If you had not been raised told how all humans are evil and disgusting beings you would not see that. It is blatantly false. Every person is born perfectly neutral, perfectly balanced. We are not born evil nor are we born good. We become evil or good based on influences and free choices we make. If the bible had never been written in the first place, you would not see people as evil and they would not need your salvation.

As for Satan being in the DNA: Our DNA makeup is theoretically made by god. If god put Satan in our DNA, that is not our fault. DNA is serpentine looking, spiraling around. Perhaps we were actually created by Satan????

As for this:

Exodus 20:5:
for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

Ezekiel 18:20
"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

I am well aware the bible contradicts itself repeatedly. In Christ- it is not going to help your argument that your religion is right when you point our that it is full of contradictions.

 

[InChrist]

I am well aware the bible contradicts itself repeatedly. In Christ- it is not going to help your argument that your religion is right when you point our that it is full of contradictions.

There are no contradictions in the Bible, only contradictions and misunderstanding in the minds of finite humans reading it. I am not making any argument on behalf of a right religion. I believe religion to be a distraction.