Original Sin

[waitasec]

I find it uproariously funny that people talk of the Adam and Eve myth as something that really happened. In this day and age!

As for original sin, that is an obvious scam cooked up by clerics and that villain Paul to get control over their followers by instilling an attitude of morbid guilt in them.

i know...
but in order to make a case against it, as being a literal account, i feel i have to assume it is

 

[idav]

The consequences of Adam's sin were physical, not spiritual.

The consequences were both physical and spiritual.

 

[Sleeppy]

The consequences were both physical and spiritual.

I was referring to the descendants - our inheritance was physical.

 

[waitasec]

As far as I know.

i'm not understanding your position.
you said, unless i misunderstood, is that the position you did not support was that the consequences of adam's sin was physical.
and here you are saying that as far as you know, yes it was

 

[idav]

I was referring to the descendants - our inheritance was physical.

Well at least your not saying that some sort of black mark is passed down onto our soul. However physical defects seem to be part of the issue bringing us down spiritually. It is passed down regardless. If a baby is born with no mark it is only a matter of time.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." Ezekiel 18:20

The context of the passage you cited and the one above shows there is a difference between the ramifications of sin on those in the physical world or for eternity. The consequences of sin may very well impact successive generations in this life, but each person only faces the consequences of their own sin for eternity.

God sounds a bit conflicted. I guess they don't call the Bible the Big Book of Multiple Choice for nothing.

You are expressing the Catholic view of Original sin. I was raised Catholic, but rejected many of those teachings years ago believing them to be contrary to the biblical scriptures. I don't see that the scriptures indicate anything other than Christ to "fix" anyone and any child must be at least old enough to understand that.

Every denomination I've ever heard of that uses the term "Original Sin" also teaches the necessity of infant baptism. If your denomination uses the term and practices "believer's baptism", it's new to me.

 

[Sleeppy]

i'm not understanding your position.
you said, unless i misunderstood, is that the position you did not support was that the consequences of adam's sin was physical.
and here you are saying that as far as you know, yes it was

No. What post did you infer that from?

 

[waitasec]

No. What post did you infer that from?

this is how it was played out...

Quote what you are referring to from the Bible.

I know that you call him "enlightened." That's my point. There would be no enlightenment at all, if we spiritually inherited death/corruption. Just as the body cannot inherit the Kingdom, because of it's corruption, neither would the spirit.

Exactly why original sin is obviously false. We haven't spiritually inherited sin, and original sin is not true because of your very argument. Thank you for supporting my position

The 'spiritual inheritance' part of it.

curious, what position did you not support?

The consequences of Adam's sin were physical, not spiritual.

was the physical death for a & e a consequence of sin?

As far as I know.

so what do you mean?
the consequences of adams sin do they affect us physically or not?

 

[Sleeppy]

Well at least your not saying that some sort of black mark is passed down onto our soul. However physical defects seem to be part of the issue bringing us down spiritually. It is passed down regardless. If a baby is born with no mark it is only a matter of time.

This physical curse is a very difficult thing to carry.. And I don't know the complete mechanics, but I have a very strong confidence that God will correct everything and judge perfectly. So, i'm not worried about anything or anyone. I am able to recognize many of the faults I have and I've been working against them everyday.

I believe that Jesus is our redemption from Adam's curse. In Adam, we are promised death, but in Jesus we are promised life. So, I wait for the body that Adam gave me to be replaced by the body that Christ will give. I believe that Jesus has given His Spirit to me for certain things. But I am still looking to increase that presence within me. I work in much of my own power, and can only do so much. I believe that one day, if God allows, I will perform many things by God's power.

 

[Sleeppy]

this is how it was played out...

so what do you mean?
the consequences of adams sin do they affect us physically or not?

I see. You misunderstood me answering your question with - "The consequences of Adam's sin were physical, not spiritual" - to mean I was disagreeing with it.

No. That quote is my own words. I disagree that it was a spiritual inheritance.

 

[waitasec]

I see. You misunderstood me answering your question with - "The consequences of Adam's sin were physical, not spiritual" - to mean I was disagreeing with it.

No. That quote is my own words. I disagree that it was a spiritual inheritance.

ok i get it now...thanks for clarifying

so our disposition of needing a savior comes from what then?

 

[Sleeppy]

ok i get it now...thanks for clarifying

so our disposition of needing a savior comes from what then?

The curse under Adam. Being a slave to sin and it's consequences.

 

[waitasec]

The curse under Adam.

so when you said:

I disagree that it was a spiritual inheritance

what is the curse?

see, the way i see it is like this...
believers still die physically, which was what we inherited from adams curse
so it doesn't make sense to me that if believers are now freed from the curse of sin, why do they still have a physical death?

 

[Sleeppy]

so when you said:


what is the curse?

see, the way i see it is like this...
believers still die physically, which was what we inherited from adams curse
so it doesn't make sense to me that if believers are now freed from the curse of sin, why do they still have a physical death?

It's not complete yet. That's why you have people relapsing into old sinful habits. The body from Adam has to die. At the second coming of Christ there's a resurrection to life in a new incorruptible body.

 

[InChrist]

God sounds a bit conflicted. I guess they don't call the Bible the Big Book of Multiple Choice for nothing.

Can you not understand the difference between temporal and eternal? Some Bible passages refer to temporal, earthy situations and some refer to the eternal state.

Every denomination I've ever heard of that uses the term "Original Sin" also teaches the necessity of infant baptism. If your denomination uses the term and practices "believer's baptism", it's new to me.

[/quote]


I do not belong to a denomination, but I don't believe Baptists practice infant baptism, yet they believe the scriptures.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

 

[waitasec]

It's not complete yet. That's why you have people relapsing into old sinful habits.

so what jesus came to do wasn't completed on the cross?
then what was the purpose for jesus to physically die?

The body from Adam has to die. At the second coming of Christ there's a resurrection to life in a new incorruptible body.

well according to the account in genesis,
adam and eve where not forbidden from eating from the tree of eternal life until after the fall, which was the physical consequence of their sin of disobedience, right? so then what is the connection between our physical bodies and our spiritual inheritance of eternal life as believers?

 

[nnmartin]

it's fairly clear that everyone was born sinful.

Look how a young 3 year old child throws a temper tantrum when they can't get what they want.

already demonstrating the selfish human ego!

just jump forward 20 years and we can see that nearly everyone is still doing this but with far bigger consequences.

sin is there regardless of culture and upbringing - that is why we need to turn to God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can you not understand the difference between temporal and eternal? Some Bible passages refer to temporal, earthy situations and some refer to the eternal state.

What does this have to do with anything?

I do not belong to a denomination,

Every Christian belongs to a denomination.

but I don't believe Baptists practice infant baptism, yet they believe the scriptures.

Good for them. Do they use the term "Original Sin" to describe their beliefs? My grandmother was a Baptist; I never heard her use the term once.

 

[Sleeppy]

so what jesus came to do wasn't completed on the cross?
then what was the purpose for jesus to physically die?


well according to the account in genesis,
adam and eve where not forbidden from eating from the tree of eternal life until after the fall, which was the physical consequence of their sin of disobedience, right? so then what is the connection between our physical bodies and our spiritual inheritance of eternal life as believers?

The sacrifice for all sin.

The physical body is predisposed for sin. Like being hurled into a downward spiral, until something stops us. Christ is what can and will stop us. Then we turn back into the upward direction.

It seems to me - my own thought - that anyone in their right mind would follow God. It's where all benefit is maintained. I'm not sure where Satan came from or why, but the faith of Adam and Eve couldn't withstand him. Perhaps, through our inheritance, we are forced to see that our own effort is not enough. Here we have problems with water deprivation, global warming, sickness and disease, starvation, social retardation and wars.. economic collapse. They keep reoccurring. And no one cares that much, as long as they're the ones surviving.

I'm not sure how many of us will go onto the next age, where Christ rules. Maybe its actually all of us. Maybe those who aren't allowed to the next age, will be allowed into the one after. I'm still contemplating it all.

 

[Me Myself]

Just let me get this straight:

I don´t have to believe in the sin that Adam did and I did not for me to be BORN naturally INCAPABLE of not sinning.

BUT I do need to believe in the IMPOSIBLE TO PROVE redemption of his punishment done by Jesuschrist of this sin that I never asked for nor could have chose not to inherit for me to not suffer this injustice.

If a perfect God made this system, let me tell you I am not impressed.