Original Sin

[waitasec]

No. We were succeeding, until we went against God.

and when does one go against god?

God didn't create sin.

i didn't say god created sin. you said the physical body was predisposed for sin.

Adam and Eve weren't like babies, they knew how to follow the command given, babies obviously don't.

it doesn't matter if the body is predisposed to sin...
there is no choice in the matter

 

[Sleeppy]

and when does one go against god?

i didn't say god created sin. you said the physical body was predisposed for sin.



it doesn't matter if the body is predisposed to sin...
there is no choice in the matter

Losing faith in God's word and disobeying.

It's not accurate to liken it to creating a virus.

I'm not sure what you're saying in that last point.

 

[Sleeppy]

Is clear. It´s his fault that sin is inheritable. After all, if he wished to actually judge me fairly then he wouldn´t have left me with a flaw that was actually the fault of my great great great etc grandparents.

So I have no decision in being born flawed and with the imposibility of not sinning, but I do have to actually choose to belief an attonement I wouldn´t even need in the first place if I wasn´t bron with the punishment of someone other than me.

If the attonement must be "accepted" to work, then that should also be the nature of the sin. If I don´t need to accept the sin for it to affect my nature, it is immoral for me to need to accept the redemption for me to be inocent.

It wasn't inheritable until they sinned. God is the first and perfect supreme Judge. If you can think of a better judgement, you're not seeing every detail.

Even assuming you believe in atonement from the sinful nature, if you don't believe in the inheritance from Adam, you can't accept either of them.

 

[waitasec]

Losing faith in God's word and disobeying.

and how does one know what gods word is in order for them to know they are disobeying?

It's not accurate to liken it to creating a virus.

did god create us with the disposition to sin or not?

I'm not sure what you're saying in that last point.

how can adam and eve know how to follow gods commands if they were created with a disposition to sin?

 

[Sleeppy]

and how does one know what gods word is in order for them to know they are disobeying?


did god create us with the disposition to sin or not?


how can adam and eve know how to follow gods commands if they were created with a disposition to sin?

God was there in the garden, telling them.

No. We took the disposition.

 

[waitasec]

God was there in the garden, telling them.

if it was the tree of knowledge...and they hadn't partaken of the forbidden fruit as of yet how can they tell the difference between right and wrong...it's circular reasoning.
in order for them to understand that disobedience was wrong they didn't need to partake of the tree because they already knew that disobeying was wrong, do you see what mean?

No. We took the disposition.

how does that work exactly?
if you are not able to recognize the 7th dimension is it because you choose not to or because you can't?

 

[Sleeppy]

if it was the tree of knowledge...and they hadn't partaken of the forbidden fruit as of yet how can they tell the difference between right and wrong...it's circular reasoning.
in order for them to understand that disobedience was wrong they didn't need to partake of the tree because they already knew that disobeying was wrong, do you see what mean?



how does that work exactly?
if you are not able to recognize the 7th dimension is it because you choose not to or because you can't?

It's not circular reasoning, when you realize that they had knowledge before eating the fruit. And that Eve was reasoning with herself and the snake, about the decision.

Once they went against God's knowledge, they were left to much of their own. They didn't actually gain knowledge from the tree. Therefore, their increases in knowledge largely became their descendant's as well. Likewise with their decreases.

What about the 7th dimension?

 

[waitasec]

It's not circular reasoning, when you realize that they had knowledge before eating the fruit. And that Eve was reasoning with herself and the snake, about the decision.

so what didn't they know about good and evil before eating the forbidden fruit?

Once they went against God's knowledge, they were left to much of their own. They didn't actually gain knowledge from the tree. Therefore, their increases in knowledge largely became their descendant's as well. Likewise with their decreases.

there is where the loop hole doesn't seem to work
it was the tree of knowledge not the tree of obedience

What about the 7th dimension?

had god created us with out the ability to recognize sin then we wouldn't be in the position you say we are in...the ability to become aware...

that is why i say the god you are describing set mankind up to fail

 

[Me Myself]

It wasn't inheritable until they sinned. God is the first and perfect supreme Judge. If you can think of a better judgement, you're not seeing every detail.

Or maybe the doctrine has a very inaccurate protrayal of a good judgement. God is all powerful. He can poof the details away if he cares.

Who cares it wasn´t? the fact is I do. God didn´t according to you. So either God is an **** or the doctrine is wrong.

 

[Sleeppy]

so what didn't they know about good and evil before eating the forbidden fruit?


there is where the loop hole doesn't seem to work
it was the tree of knowledge not the tree of obedience


had god created us with out the ability to recognize sin then we wouldn't be in the position you say we are in...the ability to become aware...

that is why i say the god you are describing set mankind up to fail

They seemed to know less about good and evil, after eating the fruit.

On one hand, God is telling them knowledge.. and on the other, they're learning by trial and error.

I see. If you are in the 7th dimension, it doesn't matter if you recognize it or not, you'll still be there incurring it's reality.

 

[Sleeppy]

Or maybe the doctrine has a very inaccurate protrayal of a good judgement. God is all powerful. He can poof the details away if he cares.

Who cares it wasn´t? the fact is I do. God didn´t according to you. So either God is an **** or the doctrine is wrong.

Undermine Himself? No.

I'm not sure what you're saying in those last statements.

 

[waitasec]

They seemed to know less about good and evil, after eating the fruit.

i'm not sure what you mean here...the story says their eyes were opened and became aware.

On on hand, God is telling them knowledge.. and on the other, they're learning by trial and error.

isn't trial and error the best way to learn?

I see. If you are in the 7th dimension, it doesn't matter if you recognize it or not, you'll still be there incurring it's reality.

if the 7th dimension is something that is surrounding you and you are not aware of it, how can you possibly know anything about it? just as with disobedience, in the case of the fall...if adam and eve were created with bodies that are predisposed for sin..then god knew that and set them up to fail knowing they were capable of understanding the 7th dimension, if you will.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I disagree, the sinful nature is not the punishment, death is the punishment for sin. Humans willfully sin of their own accord against God and others.

I know you disagree; nevertheless, and several pages late you wish to blame humans for the consequences/punishment for sinful nature'; but refuse to grasp that that sinful nature is placed upon us by God's punishment for Adam and Eve.

There is no way that our human nature changed from not-inclined-to-sin to inclined-to-sin without direct interference from God.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Is clear. It´s his fault that sin is inheritable. After all, if he wished to actually judge me fairly then he wouldn´t have left me with a flaw that was actually the fault of my great great great etc grandparents.

So I have no decision in being born flawed and with the imposibility of not sinning, but I do have to actually choose to belief an attonement I wouldn´t even need in the first place if I wasn´t bron with the punishment of someone other than me.

If the attonement must be "accepted" to work, then that should also be the nature of the sin. If I don´t need to accept the sin for it to affect my nature, it is immoral for me to need to accept the redemption for me to be inocent.

I once offered a thread related to this same moral dilemma, and it did not get any satisfactory responses either
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...3325-adam-all-mens-nature-becomes-sinful.html

 

[Sleeppy]

i'm not sure what you mean here...the story says their eyes were opened and became aware.


isn't trial and error the best way to learn?



if the 7th dimension is something that is surrounding you and you are not aware of it, how can you possibly know anything about it? just as with disobedience, in the case of the fall...if adam and eve were created with bodies that are predisposed for sin..then god knew that and set them up to fail knowing they were capable of understanding the 7th dimension, if you will.

Their eyes were opened to them being naked. Obviously, it didn't matter that they were naked, because they were fine up until they decided they were.

Trial and error isn't the best way to learn. Not if you don't want to experience a consequence you could've avoided.

If you are in that dimension, you are experiencing it, therefore you know about it. Adam and Eve weren't created with bodies predisposed for sin.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I would also observe that over teh past several pages, we have two contradictory takes on what exactly original sin and even the nature of the sin itself, are. If even the 'expert' participants in this system don't know what th heck it even is, there's no moral standpoint whatsoever for God to hold anyone accountable for Original Sin, since there is no concrete understanding of God's own system by the people being subjected to it. Unjust laws are unjust no matter how you want to semantically parse them.

It's all just absurd.

 

[waitasec]

Their eyes were opened to them being naked. Obviously, it didn't matter that they were naked, because they were fine up until they decided they were.

the narrative put that little tid bit in there for a reason... once they knew they were naked they had to cover up, as if being naked was something to be ashamed of or something wrong...but if they already knew what good and evil meant then they would have known they were naked.

Trial and error isn't the best way to learn. Not if you don't want to experience a consequence you could've avoided.

somewhere along the way someone experienced errors, and since we are capable of reasoning then we learn from the experience, right?

If you are in that dimension, you are experiencing it, therefore you know about it. Adam and Eve weren't created with bodies predisposed for sin.

thats my point...they didn't know disobedience was wrong, they were unaware of the 7th dimension, and were held accountable as if they knew.

 

[Sleeppy]

the narrative put that little tid bit in there for a reason... once they knew they were naked they had to cover up, as if being naked was something to be ashamed of or something wrong...but if they already knew what good and evil meant then they would have known they were naked.


somewhere along the way someone experienced errors, and since we are capable of reasoning then we learn from the experience, right?


thats my point...they didn't know disobedience was wrong, they were unaware of the 7th dimension, and were held accountable as if they knew.

It wasn't until they decided they were naked that they covered up. If God needed them covered, He would've created them covered.

Adam and Eve were the first to experience their error. I wouldn't say that human reasoning is very efficient or accurate, most of the time.

I'm saying they did know it was wrong. They were warned.

 

[waitasec]

It wasn't until they decided they were naked that they covered up. If God needed them covered, He would've created them covered.

where does it say they decided they were naked?

Adam and Eve were the first to experience their error. I wouldn't say that human reasoning is very efficient or accurate, most of the time.

i disagree. we've come a long way in regards to human rights

I'm saying they did know it was wrong. They were warned.

how did they know it was wrong when they didn't know they were naked?

 

[waitasec]

I'm saying they did know it was wrong. They were warned.

you said

Adam and Eve weren't created with bodies predisposed for sin.

if adam and eve were not created to recognize the 7th dimension how can they be accounted for it?