Outed and then driven to suicide.

[Revoltingest]

You aren't doing violence, it's clear that didn't apply to you.

The "yokel" portion was unnecessary.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you had good arguments, you would not need to mischaracterize what I've said.

I've good arguments.
But you & I have little common ground.

 

[Revoltingest]

Einstein said something like: "Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler".

I don't think he proposed making them simplistic.

Some topics cannot be reduced to sound bites. What I notice happens a lot is that people on your team put words in my mouth. That seems to me to be a symptom of someone who cannot think past sound bites they've heard.

There you go...making me part of some "team",
with whom I have differences. It's hostile to
not treat one as an individual.
BTW, your views are soundbites commonly heard
by vile bigots in fringe right wing sites. So that's
an ironic brickbat to wield at "my team".

If your posts had less hostility, you'd receive less
in return. This is good advice. Consider it.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I agree that SJWs are usually well intended. But the devil is in the details. Can you explain what you mean when you say "equity"? Is it the same as equality or something different.

Equity is making sure that equal opportunities are fair. This makes sense in a country whose ethos is "liberty AND justice for all.".

That's interesting. Initially she was a target for the far right, and then she became a target for the lefties. (BTW, I'm not attached to any particular label for the SJW / VS set of ideas we're discussing. If you have a better term, lmk.)

Recently I asked everyone on this forum if they could explain exactly what she said that made her a target for the lefties. A few posters pointed to a few tweets of hers, but on one could explain why the tweets were actually transphobic. The best I can tell is that refused to repeat the exact trans activist chant she was told to repeat?

I tend to shy away from the Rowling stuff just because it's too ambiguous and I don't see any practical value in it. I see your perspective: she has tweeted support for transfolk but has also called into question medical interventions and equates "women" and "female" without differentiating between gender and sex, something that provides a practical solution to some of the problems transgender folks face.

While this might be a problem for the activists in terms of PR, focusing on it ignores the real problems activists are trying to address. Frankly, all political activism can be problematic in some ways because of divisiveness and the diversity of people involved. However, complaining about problematic activism seems paltry when the activists are trying to address problems like the original story behind this post.

Of course activists are going to respond in emotionally-intense ways when outing people over how they dress and identify leads to stigmatization, violence,and self-harm.

I wouldn't put it in such black and white terms. Of course there is a spectrum of people and behaviors we're talking about.

As for the struggles of trans people, I agree that they are real and ought to be fixed. I just think that many of the solutions we see on offer are destructive and divisive. I suspect that some of the TAs have wider "burn it all down" goals (common with lefties), and trans activism is seen as a good vehicle to achieve those ends.

I feel I addressed this above.

For example, much of the TA playbook is exactly Orwellian doublethink.

Examples?

This is where I really feel the need to hold my tongue lest I am accused of virtue signaling or being an SJW. Doublethink? Doublethinking what? That a person was outed against their will took their own life and maybe, just maybe they shouldn't have felt the need to is something to strive for? That an individual should feel free to explore their life in a way that harms no one else should be supported, or at least not stigmatized, socially in a country whose virtues signal that?

The news organization that outed them has some very nice thoughts on rights and compassion on their about section of their website. That they can simultaneously believe this and do what they did is a great example of doublethink.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The "yokel" portion was unnecessary.

Is it necessary to bring that up when the wording used was "jackwad yokels" and the context a clear indication it's not about you?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Examples?

I'd like to see an example of RWers, Conservatives, or other such types actually use terms like Orwellian and doublethink correctly.
Case in point, they scream and foam at the mouth as the accuse things of being "Orwellian" but go entirely unaware and totally ignorant that their crusades against changing, expanding and evolving language a.d struggles to limit amd restrict it is actually itself more in line with newspeak and Ingsoc approved.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Another good example if RWers acting Orwellian while accusing others of it; they have used things like Fox and Twitter to turn Two Minutes Hate and Hate Week into a 24/7, year round non-stop extravaganza.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is it necessary to bring that up when the wording used was "jackwad yokels" and the context a clear indication it's not about you?

Yokels are me people.
It's as irrelevant as using racial, sexual, state, or other epithets.

 

[icehorse]

If your posts had less hostility, you'd receive less
in return. This is good advice. Consider it.

As I've said, my policy is to not INITIATE personal attacks. But I will respond in kind. And this is not to say I have a perfect record, but I think I have a pretty good one.

Now if you're claiming that I attack closely held IDEAS, then I'm guilty as charged.

That's all the consideration I'll give your advice. I don't care about your hostility, I'm trying to discuss ideas that I fin to be divisive and destructive.

 

[Revoltingest]

As I've said, my policy is to not INITIATE personal attacks.

I've experienced the failure of your policy.

 

[icehorse]

Equity is making sure that equal opportunities are fair. This makes sense in a country whose ethos is "liberty AND justice for all.".

As I understand the two words these days there is an important difference:

equity tends to mean equality of outcome
equality tends to mean quality of opportunity,

Which of those do you favor?

Of course activists are going to respond in emotionally-intense ways when outing people over how they dress and identify leads to stigmatization, violence,and self-harm.

So the question I'd have is this: if your goal is to further trans rights, is it really productive to respond in emotionally intense ways?

I tend to shy away from the Rowling stuff just because it's too ambiguous and I don't see any practical value in it. I see your perspective: she has tweeted support for transfolk but has also called into question medical interventions and equates "women" and "female" without differentiating between gender and sex, something that provides a practical solution to some of the problems transgender folks face.

Rowling has been positively slammed with all manner of threats of violence, do you think that's going to help trans people live better lives?

I don't believe she is conflating sex and gender. I don't believe she cares much about gender. Do you differentiate between sex and gender?

I believe her stance is that there are only two sexes, and that sex is immutable. For reasons that are unclear to me, trans activists feel that those stances somehow threaten them? I guess it's because they seem very invested in claims like "trans women are women". I don't understand why that claim also seems to be so super important to trans people. What is wrong with saying a trans woman is a trans woman?

This is where I really feel the need to hold my tongue lest I am accused of virtue signaling or being an SJW. Doublethink? Doublethinking what?

Here are some doublethink claims that trans activists make:

- trans women are women
- trans men are men
- some men have vaginas
- some women have penises
- speech is violence
- misgendering a person should be a hate crime

These could well have been in Orwell's famous dystopian novel "1984".

That a person was outed against their will took their own life and maybe, just maybe they shouldn't have felt the need to is something to strive for? That an individual should feel free to explore their life in a way that harms no one else should be supported, or at least not stigmatized, socially in a country whose virtues signal that?

The news organization that outed them has some very nice thoughts on rights and compassion on their about section of their website. That they can simultaneously believe this and do what they did is a great example of doublethink.

The Bubba situation really has nothing to do with doublethink - at least not in my mind. But a couple of thoughts on Bubba:

- of course he should be free to explore his life without harassment, as long as he wasn't impinging on the rights of others.
- Bubba the trans woman had a presence on the internet. We should all know by now that there is no privacy on the internet, so some news organization, sooner or later, would have discovered Bubba on the internet.

 

[icehorse]

I've experienced the failure of your policy.

I strongly suspect you've initiated far more personal attacks against me than the other way around.

 

[icehorse]

I guess it all depends on application and interpretation.

That one tweet of hers that I posted created a firestorm of hate directed at her.

 

[Revoltingest]

I strongly suspect you've initiated far more personal attacks against me than the other way around.

Of course you do.

 

[icehorse]

Of course you do.

Well we can keep a journal going forward

 

[Revoltingest]

Well we can keep a journal going forward

You could review your prior posts to many others.

 

[icehorse]

You could review your prior posts to many others.

You could count how many vowels you've used in your RF posts

 

[Revoltingest]

You could count how many vowels you've used in your RF posts

I just figured your self reflection could
begin using past posts, rather than
waiting for new ones.

 

[icehorse]

I just figured your self reflection could
begin using past posts, rather than
waiting for new ones.

As could yours

 

[Revoltingest]

As could yours

No one's complaining about my hostility though.
No one who counts anyway.