Outed and then driven to suicide.

[F1fan]

You need to start thinking more deeply than what sound bites can convey.

As offered in this sound bite?

Notice you offered no "depth" that I am missing. You are just deflecting away from criticsm against you, and you must not be able to defend your beliefs and claims.

The current trans activist idea is a zero-sum solution. I have no interest in punishing anyone. I just think we can find win-win solutions.

Yet you resist any suggestions offered to the discussion, and offer none but a strict prohibition of bathroom access for trans people. Your justification is a few incidents of perverts, not trans people, taking advantage of lawful access for trans. You offer nothing to deal with the perverts in society, and they remain a problem for women.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What do you have against us yokels?
You urban types are pretty dangerous too.

You aren't doing violence, it's clear that didn't apply to you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And you - quite transparently - made all that **** up.

No, I didn't. You made an effort to derail the thread from the start, you make thread after thread attacking trans people, and we've discussed the consequences of your garbage in other threads WITH sources and news stories provided.
And you did infact, many times, blame the victims and in a thread about a victim your hatred flaired up so much, you just could not stand a the idea of a transperson being a victim and acknowledged as a victim so you threw out stories of men attacking women.
Amd you have the nerve to say you've shown more compassion than others, but as we all should know actions speak louder than words and you say you have compassion but the act of ignoring the OP to attack transpeople screams its not compassion but hatred.

 

[icehorse]

Some personalities inspire this.
But I see the fallacies being from your end....
- Trans women are men.
- The risk posed by trans women to women in "safe spaces" is significant.

If you had good arguments, you would not need to mischaracterize what I've said.

 

[Little Dragon]

And you think screaming at people for imagined slights is a good approach to achieve this goal?

I don't recall saying that.

 

[icehorse]

So your criticism is HOW the activists are doigng their work, or FOR what they are fighting for?

IF you are truly compassionate as you claim then you will at least not criticize trans activists for fighting for their rights, yes?

So then, WHAT is your direct criticism of trans activists?

Yes! As I've said before, mostly good intentions, but bad, divisive, destructive solutions.

I am copying some example of bad solutions from post #31, earlier in this thread:

==

Here are just a few of the items on the trans activist "win hearts and minds" agenda:

- scream at people when they don't use pronouns you just made up.
- try to make it a crime to "misgender" people.
- try to force people to chant Orwellian lies, e.g. "a trans woman is a woman"
- try to forcibly warp crucial parts of our language to support lies like the above
- scream at people if they disagree with the "gender affirming care" house of cards


And so on...
Do you really think these tactics are making life better for trans people? Most of whom just want to get on with it?

 

[icehorse]

I don't recall saying that.

I don't think you have Again, my criticisms are aimed at TAs who DO say that.

 

[Little Dragon]

My concern continues to be NORMALIZING the occurrence of people who look like men going into women's safe spaces. The number of people identifying as trans has exploded in the last few years.

A rather absurd concern. One that I've never heard anyone raise, before I met your good self here on RF. I find it puzzling that this seems to be such a massive deal for you. Considering the real problems we have, as a civilization.

 

[Little Dragon]

I don't think you have Again, my criticisms are aimed at TAs who DO say that.

Maybe some do get very emotive. Is that a sign of a dishonest plot to undermine the safety of women in public restrooms? Though?

 

[icehorse]

When you say trans women or trans man, does trans mean where the person started or where the person wishes to end?

My understanding is that these days "trans" means a person who feels their body is incongruent with how they feel. For example a male who feels he should be a female. And as far as I know these days, it doesn't really matter what steps they have or have not taken to "transition", they are still "trans".

==

I largely agree with the rest of your post. Not every jot and tittle, but largely (lest someone from the other team tries to catch me out on a detail.)

 

[Father Heathen]

There you go, indeed. I've never heard a liberal use that word the way the right uses it.

"Woke" has become a lazy slur used to represent anything that conservatives either don't like or don't understand. For example, plant based meat alternatives have been referred to as "woke".

 

[icehorse]

Maybe some do get very emotive. Is that a sign of a dishonest plot to undermine the safety of women in public restrooms? Though?

Not necessarily. It could be as simple as a bad solution, not clearly thought through.

That's why clear headed discussion is a good thing

 

[icehorse]

Well there you go, so much for exposing your political affiliation and beliefs.

You are critical of TRANS activism, but I can't distill what your problem is wit it except that it is for trans people. You aren't critical of other activists.

I'm happy to abandon the term "woke". But there ARE a collection of ideas commonly held by "the woke" or "the progressive left" or "lefties", whatever, that I think are divisive and destructive.

fwiw, i'm quite critical of most woke activism - for example I think DEI has largely gone off the rails. Again, good intentions, poorly executed.

You say this, and then go on to say negative things against trans people and their activists.

I have not. I have criticized ONLY trans activist ideas. See the JKR quote above.

Do you take any issue with that quote? If so, what. If not, then we're on the same page.

 

[icehorse]

Even if your opposition to treating trans women as women,
& trans men as men is based on reason rather than loathing,
your posts do come across as quite hostile to many here.
It's not just calling trans women "men", but also the angry
tone of the posts.
Even if one has a good argument for a claim, that can get
lost in how it's presented, ie, if continually offensive.

Einstein said something like: "Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler".

Some topics cannot be reduced to sound bites. What I notice happens a lot is that people on your team put words in my mouth. That seems to me to be a symptom of someone who cannot think past sound bites they've heard.

 

[Little Dragon]

"Woke" has become a lazy slur used to represent anything that conservatives either don't like or don't understand. For example, plant based meat alternatives have been referred to as "woke".

Woke as in awake.

Awareness of the unfairness intolerance and prejudice in society.

That's what I understood the term to mean, in the context of politics.

 

[icehorse]

"Woke" has become a lazy slur used to represent anything that conservatives either don't like or don't understand. For example, plant based meat alternatives have been referred to as "woke".

Again, I'm not attached to that term. However there is a collection of ideas, commonly invoked, that I think are really, really bad, divisive, destructive ideas. Here are a few, I would be very happy indeed if there was an acceptable term for this collection of ideas:

- intersectional theory
- identity politics
- the oppressor vs oppressed worldview
- speech as violence

And so on. I'm a liberal and I think those ideas are hugely destructive.

 

[Little Dragon]

Not necessarily. It could be as simple as a bad solution, not clearly thought through.

That's why clear headed discussion is a good thing

Well it sure is. However of course, we are talking about the rights of men and women, such discussion cannot but be somewhat emotionally invested.
I am emotionally invested in this debate, to a degree. Since I am very much a social libertarian. Therefore this is a debate which goes to the heart of my social political philosophy. I want people to be free to express what and who they are without condemnation and intolerance. In basic fundamental principle.

 

[anna.]

"Woke" has become a lazy slur used to represent anything that conservatives either don't like or don't understand. For example, plant based meat alternatives have been referred to as "woke".

Yeah, it's quite a tell.

 

[icehorse]

A rather absurd concern. One that I've never heard anyone raise, before I met your good self here on RF. I find it puzzling that this seems to be such a massive deal for you. Considering the real problems we have, as a civilization.

This concern is not original with me. You can do a little internet searching and discover that this is actually a well known issue.

As for bigger problems, I largely agree with you. Personally, I think that fighting the global oligarchy and honestly addressing ecological overshoot (of which climate change is a symptom) are far bigger, existential problems.

The reason I spend time on this issue is because in order to fight these bigger problems, we have to abandon magical thinking and focus on critical thinking. And the woke are making serious inroads into society using a largely magical thinking agenda.

I am emotionally invested in this debate, to a degree. Since I am very much a social libertarian. Therefore this is a debate which goes to the heart of my social political philosophy. I want people to be free to express what and who they are without condemnation and intolerance. In basic fundamental principle.

I think we are largely agreed here. Again, do you have any issues with the JKR quote I just posted? If not, then we're largely agreed on this topic.

 

[Little Dragon]

I think we are largely agreed here. Again, do you have any issues with the JKR quote I just posted? If not, then we're largely agreed on this topic.

No particular issue. I guess it all depends on application and interpretation.

Personally, I think that fighting the global oligarchy and honestly addressing ecological overshoot (of which climate change is a symptom) are far bigger, existential problems.

On that we are agreed, certainly. I look forward to agreeing with you on those matters in the future. At the moment though, that's difficult.