outrage with islam

[Penumbra]

scientology

Arose from science fiction culture.

 

[crimsonlung]

Arose from science fiction culture.

How do you know? Its man made. It happens to have an alien in it and you say it related to sci fi? What about Islam? It is supposed to be the written word of God, how can that be a derivative of culture?

 

[Penumbra]

How do you know? Its man made. It happens to have an alien in it and you say it related to sci fi?

The founder was a sci-fi fiction author. The religion incorporates elements of culture that existed before the religion came about.

Besides, let's keep this in context. Islam originated in a certain culture and heavily influences that culture (more specifically, it influences the variety of cultures that it now exists in, since Islam is so widespread). It's a cycle of culture and religion being intertwined and interrelated. The longer a religion is around and the bigger it is, the more it influences culture. All religions come from culture and those religions then continue to influence culture.

What about Islam? It is supposed to be the written word of God, how can that be a derivative of culture?

Because it's not really the written word of god. That's just what some people say about it. (At least from a perspective from anyone who's not Muslim or maybe Bahai or syncretist or something).

Besides, the Qur'an only remains the written word of god if it's in Arabic. If it's translated to another language, it's no longer considered the actual Qur'an since it's no longer the word-for-word scripture of god and is now just an approximation. So it's inherently tied to a specific language and therefore culture.

 

[YmirGF]

cutting hand off for stealing is written in Qur'an, my friend. i suggest you read surah 5 verse 38

.

Thank you, .lava. It is bad enough when Muslims bend the meaning of the Qur'an, but it is worse when non-Muslims tell us things are not written that actually are. *sigh*

So much ignorance... so little time...

My guess is that crimsonlung doesn't know much about what he is talking about.

 

[crimsonlung]

The founder was a sci-fi fiction author. The religion incorporates elements of culture that existed before the religion came about.

Besides, let's keep this in context. Islam originated in a certain culture and heavily influences that culture (more specifically, it influences the variety of cultures that it now exists in, since Islam is so widespread). It's a cycle of culture and religion being intertwined and interrelated. The longer a religion is around and the bigger it is, the more it influences culture. All religions come from culture and those religions then continue to influence culture.

Because it's not really the written word of god. That's just what some people say about it. (At least from a perspective from anyone who's not Muslim or maybe Bahai or syncretist or something).

Besides, the Qur'an only remains the written word of god if it's in Arabic. If it's translated to another language, it's no longer considered the actual Qur'an since it's no longer the word-for-word scripture of god and is now just an approximation. So it's inherently tied to a specific language and therefore culture.

That is the most back asswards thing I've ever seen, first of all, I didn't ask you to believe in Islam, your naturally assuming that Islam is true for this exercise. How does translating it to another language suddenly make the Koran cultural? And if so, how?

After you answer that:

Its common knowledge that in the Koran, if even the most scholarly Arab on the planet changed one word, anybody who can read Arabic will know exactly what was changed. Making your statement completely irrelevant about the tying of language to culture since god is not a culture. Your scraping the barrel for any attachment to culture.

 

[crimsonlung]

Thank you, .lava. It is bad enough when Muslims bend the meaning of the Qur'an, but it is worse when non-Muslims tell us things are not written that actually are. *sigh*

So much ignorance... so little time...

My guess is that crimsonlung doesn't know much about what he is talking about.

No, this is the verse:
[5:38] The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands* as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

No where does it say to chop off the hand. In fact, it was understood and generally practiced in the times of Mohammed that you would receive burns or lashing on your fingers. Do your research before saying I don't know what I'm talking about ignoramus.

 

[YmirGF]

Do your research before saying I don't know what I'm talking about ignoramus.

You're new here, so I won't beat you senseless right off the bat.

Muhammad Asad - NOW AS FOR the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off the hand of either of them in requital for what they have wrought, as a deterrent ordained by God: for God is almighty, wise.

M. M. Pickthall - As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Shakir - And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Yusuf Ali - As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

Al-Muntakhab - As to the thief, man or woman, who criminally and inexcusably commits a theft - whether by violence or by stealth, - you must make them suffer the amputation of their hands in requital of their iniquity; a punishment justified by Allah to set an example to others who are tempted to rob people of their property or plunder a person feloniously of something belonging, and Allah is Azizun (Almighty) and Hakimun (Wise).

Progressive Muslims - The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.

Abdel Haleem - Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are man or woman, as punishment for what they have done- a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi - As for the man-thief and the woman-thief, cut off their hands as a meed for that which they have earned; an exemplary punishment from Allah. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Ahmed Ali - And the male thief/robber and the female thief/robber, so cut off their (B)'s hands, a reward because (of) what they (B) gathered/acquired , severe exemplary punishment from God, and God (is) glorious/mighty ,wise/judicious .





SO.... sensing a pattern yet, my friend? I could continue with 2 dozen other English translations, but I'll let you off easy -- this time.
You might want to find a better translation than that of Rashad Khalifa. I'm just saying...

 

[Penumbra]

That is the most back asswards thing I've ever seen, first of all, I didn't ask you to believe in Islam, your naturally assuming that Islam is true for this exercise.

If a deity were to come to earth and provide a religion for a certain group of people to follow, then it would be true that this religion would not be from culture (at least not from human culture). It would influence culture form that point on, but it would not be from culture.

In this thread, I'm not saying what religions could be, I'm saying what they are. Islam came from that culture and subsequently influenced that culture and other cultures.

How does translating it to another language suddenly make the Koran cultural? And if so, how?

After you answer that:

Its common knowledge that in the Koran, if even the most scholarly Arab on the planet changed one word, anybody who can read Arabic will know exactly what was changed. Making your statement completely irrelevant about the tying of language to culture since god is not a culture. Your scraping the barrel for any attachment to culture.

No, this is the verse:
[5:38] The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands* as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

No where does it say to chop off the hand. In fact, it was understood and generally practiced in the times of Mohammed that you would receive burns or lashing on your fingers. Do your research before saying I don't know what I'm talking about ignoramus.

Here's another translation of the same verse.

005.038 As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from God, for their crime: and God is Exalted in power.

Now consider the irony for a moment. A Muslim (lava) in this thread tells you that the Qur'an says to cut off hands, and this posted verse is in line with what she said. Your verse is translated differently.

Apparently people translated both of those verses, but one or both of them was significantly off. Nuances of language can change, very much, the message itself. That's why the Qur'an is not the Qur'an when it's not in Arabic, and why that example you provided proved what I said.

And Islam is not simply cultural because of the language of the Qur'an. It's cultural due to everything that it consists of. It's based off of previous religions like Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, etc. Religions that are founded in very different parts of the world typically end up being very different from each other. Buddhism, for instance, is more similar to the religions that were in place when it was founded than it is to these Abrahamic religions. Due to the geographic location of its founding, Islam is based on other Abrahamic faiths and was influenced by the culture of its time.

Do you really believe that Islam is totally independent of the culture that it came from? Rather, it's completely dependent on it.

And relax, you're being overly combative here.

 

[crimsonlung]

You're new here, so I won't beat you senseless right off the bat.

Muhammad Asad - NOW AS FOR the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off the hand of either of them in requital for what they have wrought, as a deterrent ordained by God: for God is almighty, wise.

M. M. Pickthall - As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Shakir - And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Yusuf Ali - As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

Al-Muntakhab - As to the thief, man or woman, who criminally and inexcusably commits a theft - whether by violence or by stealth, - you must make them suffer the amputation of their hands in requital of their iniquity; a punishment justified by Allah to set an example to others who are tempted to rob people of their property or plunder a person feloniously of something belonging, and Allah is Azizun (Almighty) and Hakimun (Wise).

Progressive Muslims - The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.

Abdel Haleem - Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are man or woman, as punishment for what they have done- a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi - As for the man-thief and the woman-thief, cut off their hands as a meed for that which they have earned; an exemplary punishment from Allah. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Ahmed Ali - And the male thief/robber and the female thief/robber, so cut off their (B)'s hands, a reward because (of) what they (B) gathered/acquired , severe exemplary punishment from God, and God (is) glorious/mighty ,wise/judicious .





SO.... sensing a pattern yet, my friend? I could continue with 2 dozen other English translations, but I'll let you off easy -- this time.

Your taking the same verse and showing English translations from various Muslims, means nothing. There has been much debate about this issue which you clearly have done no research on:

*5:38 The practice of cutting off the thief's hand, as decreed by the false Muslims, is a satanic practice without Quranic basis. Due to the special importance of this example, God has provided mathematical proof in support of marking the hand of the thief, rather than severing it. Verse 12:31 refers to the women who so admired Joseph that they ``cut'' their hands. Obviously, they did not ``cut off'' their hands; nobody can. The sum of sura and verse numbers are the same for 5:38 and 12:31, i.e., 43. It is also the will and mercy of God that this mathematical relationship conforms with the Quran's 19-based code. Nineteen verses after 12:31, we see the same word (12:50).

Look up the other verses and you will see the repetition.

Also, Muslims require there hands for prayer, they wash themselves 5 times in different areas of the body, why would they say to cut off a hand in the Koran?

And this is to debunk your first uneducated interpretation of the sura:

First, Asad says that cutting off hands and feet should not be taken literally, for these two bodily members may metaphorically represent a person’s "power" (note 44). However, he interprets Sura 5:38 literally, which says that a thief’s hand should be cut off. He should interpret Sura 5:33 literally, as well. He provides no explanation for this interpretive change, other than finding meanings in an Arabic dictionary that suit his agenda. The plain and simple meaning of mutilating and crucifying and killing is just that—literally doing these three brutal acts. Ockham’s razor, which says that the plainest and clearest explanation is to be preferred, eliminates Asad’s convoluted one.

This also debunks the rest of your copy/paste from the first google result you could find

 

[crimsonlung]

regardless of all that, you are not even looking at the next sura:

5:39 But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Faman taba min baAAdi thulmihiwaaslaha fa-inna Allaha yatoobu AAalayhiinna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

So the thief has a chance to repent before "Having his hands cut off"

 

[ellenjanuary]

As for the man or woman who is guilty of theft, cut off their hands to punish them for their crimes. That is the punishment enjoined by God. God is mighty and wise. But whoever repents after committing evil, and mends his ways, shall be pardoned by God. God is forgiving and merciful.
~Koran; translated by N.J. Dawood.

No, Ymir is not an ignoramus; he's an over-educated, opinionated lout. Get it right.

But the Koran, in my opinion; was composed under the impetuous of agenda. That the Prophet slanted the word of god to suit his worldly ambitions; and that this is exactly as Allah intended. I agree that religion has two distinct interpretations, the spiritual and the cultural; and it is the cultural aspect that prevents me from being Muslim.

 

[crimsonlung]

As for the man or woman who is guilty of theft, cut off their hands to punish them for their crimes. That is the punishment enjoined by God. God is mighty and wise. But whoever repents after committing evil, and mends his ways, shall be pardoned by God. God is forgiving and merciful.
~Koran; translated by N.J. Dawood.

No, Ymir is not an ignoramus; he's an over-educated, opinionated lout. Get it right.

But the Koran, in my opinion; was composed under the impetuous of agenda. That the Prophet slanted the word of god to suit his worldly ambitions; and that this is exactly as Allah intended. I agree that religion has two distinct interpretations, the spiritual and the cultural; and it is the cultural aspect that prevents me from being Muslim.

More quotes from unreliable English translation. Look up the argument, I can give you some good websites that contain accurate information about islam:

muslimaccess.com
askislam.org

but this debate has been going on for quite some time and most Sheiks will agree on the non-hand removal translation. If you directly translate it from Arabic, you will get "mark" not "cut"

 

[ellenjanuary]

More quotes from unreliable English translation. Look up the argument, I can give you some good websites that contain accurate information about islam:

muslimaccess.com
askislam.org

but this debate has been going on for quite some time and most Sheiks will agree on the non-hand removal translation. If you directly translate it from Arabic, you will get "mark" not "cut"

Translation may be unreliable, Allah is not.

That's why I posted the whole part (the whole part ); that if one reads it literally, it's chopping time, but if one reads with understanding, God is both forgiving and wise. Thanks for the links.

As for the OP, well, I used to dislike Islam; then I got myself a Koran. A sect's interpretation does not a religion make.

 

[A-ManESL]

IMHO unless the basic idea of seeing things in their relative context is clear, all analysis of this kind is immature.

Regards

 

[Autodidact]

This is the big mistake people make with Islam. There is culture, and there is religion. In Saudia Arabia, they still cut your hands off if you steal, thats not in the Koran. And ofcoarse the modern day terrorists blowing themselves up killing innocents, that is not in the Koran either The Koran is actually very peacefull.

Its the natural law carried down from generation to generation that allow this brutality. If you went to Jordan, you would see that its alot like America, women walk around the street without scarves or hijabs (full dress) and they look much like how the women here look.

What I don't like about Islam is how it treats women with half the worth of a man, for example, every 2 women witnesses in Islamic court = 1 man witness.

I don't think you've read it. It's actually quite warlike.

 

[ellenjanuary]

I don't think you've read it. It's actually quite warlike.

Jeez, Auto... guy's a former Muslim, how could he have not read it?

 

[Autodidact]

Lets see you control 1.2 billion people, and I wasn't pawning off the "crime", I don't agree with either side, but this isn't a religious "crime", it's a cultural "crime". I am using quotation marks on crime because this is not a crime in that country. It's a crime to you in your country.




No where in the Koran does it say to kill for insulting Profit Mohammed. There are lynch mobs still hanging blacks in the South and East, the KKK is still around, this is just as bad. In North Korea, if you insult the president, you are sentenced to life in a concentration camp. And thats the President, imagine all the horrible things people say about Bush and Obama in this country.

Yeah, and Johnny did it too mommy, so why are you spanking me?

Islam is a culture as well as a religion, also government and a complete way of life, and at least in one mainstream interpretation, includes killing blasphemers and apostates.

They're sure not killing this woman because they're stamp-collectors.

 

[Autodidact]

I have to disagree, what about the tribes in Africa whose culture it is to cut the clitoris off their female children at age 16. That has nothing to do with religion, that is culture. Cutting off hands for stealing in Saudia Arabia, that has nothing to do with religion but they do it today. Culture. I admit that the current OP is a combination of culture and religion but its not all like that.

What specifically is the crime this woman is accused of? Blasphemy. It's a religious offense. And would you quit with the red herrings already and focus on the issue?

 

[gnomon]

the pakistani woman mother of 5, who they say will be hanged for speaking against the prophet

World Blog - Christian woman faces death for blasphemy


I find it hard to believe people are so barbaric in modern times.

Religion practiced like this should be outlawed IMHO

Im at a loss for words over this ignornce and should stop now beofre i get in trouble.

I agree it should be outlawed. Fortunately, some countries do not include religious practices into law. crimsonlung was right in one sense. That's the cultural element.

For example, Christians in North America, Europe, South America and pretty much most of the world are not burning their own children after declaring them to be witches.

However, Pentecostal Christians in certain parts of Africa are. Mainly because their version of Christianity is a particularly....well I'll just say it....nasty one mixed with cultural beliefs of that area that existed before Christianity. The practice has been outlawed but the actual enforcement of the laws against child abuse in those cases...I don't know how well it's enforced today. A follow up on the documentary about such children in Nigeria showed that some were still being forced out of their communities and abused.

But I agree with you. Such practices should be outlawed.

 

[Autodidact]

Your taking the same verse and showing English translations from various Muslims, means nothing. There has been much debate about this issue which you clearly have done no research on:

*5:38 The practice of cutting off the thief's hand, as decreed by the false Muslims, is a satanic practice without Quranic basis. Due to the special importance of this example, God has provided mathematical proof in support of marking the hand of the thief, rather than severing it. Verse 12:31 refers to the women who so admired Joseph that they ``cut'' their hands. Obviously, they did not ``cut off'' their hands; nobody can. The sum of sura and verse numbers are the same for 5:38 and 12:31, i.e., 43. It is also the will and mercy of God that this mathematical relationship conforms with the Quran's 19-based code. Nineteen verses after 12:31, we see the same word (12:50).

Look up the other verses and you will see the repetition.

Also, Muslims require there hands for prayer, they wash themselves 5 times in different areas of the body, why would they say to cut off a hand in the Koran?

And this is to debunk your first uneducated interpretation of the sura:

First, Asad says that cutting off hands and feet should not be taken literally, for these two bodily members may metaphorically represent a person’s "power" (note 44). However, he interprets Sura 5:38 literally, which says that a thief’s hand should be cut off. He should interpret Sura 5:33 literally, as well. He provides no explanation for this interpretive change, other than finding meanings in an Arabic dictionary that suit his agenda. The plain and simple meaning of mutilating and crucifying and killing is just that—literally doing these three brutal acts. Ockham’s razor, which says that the plainest and clearest explanation is to be preferred, eliminates Asad’s convoluted one.

This also debunks the rest of your copy/paste from the first google result you could find

1. Ymir gave you 9 of the most respected translations.
2. What interpretation do the overwhelming majority of the world's Muslims use?