Overweight man sues Air France over seat row

[Ryan2065]

I believe in common sense, too! It's common sense to treat everyone with equality no matter what legally defined disability they have.

Agreed! The op makes no mention, however, of being over weight due to a disability. Or are we assuming now if you are overweight its not your fault and its due to a disability?

There are not many places where all people pay the same but some get more than the others... Why should the airlines suddenly change?

Where I come from, saying someone has a perscution complex and is "just oversensitive" to obvious ill-treatment is considered rude and belittling.

Obvious ill-treatment is forcing someone to pay for what they use? Wow, where are you from? Think of all the free stuff I can get!

To me it would be ill treatment to force all big people to pay for the extra seat no matter what. This is not what the airlines tend to do (and obviously isn't what Air France did)... What they do is if the person takes up an extra seat and there is a chance the airline can sell that seat and get completely full then the person buys the extra ticket so the airline is not out that extra money.

 

[jamaesi]

Agreed! The op makes no mention, however, of being over weight due to a disability. Or are we assuming now if you are overweight its not your fault and its due to a disability?

There are not many places where all people pay the same but some get more than the others... Why should the airlines suddenly change?

Obesity is considered a legal disability no matter what caused it. ALL places should change to be nondiscriminatory.

Just like the fact I have congenital back disorders makes me legally disabled- if my back problems came from falling down Mount Everest because I was a clumsy moron I would sill be considered legally disabled.

Obvious ill-treatment is forcing someone to pay for what they use? Wow, where are you from? Think of all the free stuff I can get!

No, embarassing them is obvious ill-treatment. He paid for them to get him from point A to point B, not to be discriminated against because of a disability. Where did I ever say peopleshouldget things for free? If you've been reading my posts I have just merely said that everyone should be treated equal even if they are disabled.

 

[FatMan]

No, embarassing them is obvious ill-treatment. He paid for them to get him from point A to point B, not to be discriminated against because of a disability.

Is measuring a man an embarrassment or a discrimination? If it is discrimination, as a man who likes wearing belts, I don't want to be discriminated against when I'm forced to take mine off when going through a metal detector, especially when there are lots of persons with belts getting through without this kind of harrassment.

Should I be discriminated against because I buy a nice belt with sturdy metal parts?

If you argue that your bags will fit in the overhead, is it discrimination when they measure them to tell you it won't?? Is it embarrassing?

 

[Mister_T]

Why? And there are already seats that are bigger... they are in first class. Again, if you want comfort then pay for the comfort... If you physically take up two seats (which a VERY small percentage of people do) then you should pay more for another seat

I don't see airlines forcing wheelchaired individuals to buy first class. They already have designated spaces.

It is... Do you think when the plane designers made the planes they though "Hrm... Lets not take any persons size and weight into consideration and cram as many seats as we can onto the plane and just hope people fit into them"

Obviously they are not considering it too much if a person of my stature has trouble finding comfort in a "normal" seat.

It is stupidity to do that... Not discrimination. If he agreed to pay the airlines for an extra seat then I highly doubt they would have measured his waist... If they still did then that would be discrimination. If someone says "Im not paying that amount" and you have a waist size posted where if someone is over that they have to pay extra then golly gee how exactly do you prove they have to pay it?

I've been on airlines, and they do not have a waist size limit. Not to mention the fact that the man in the article has flown NUMEROUS times without any problems. And on top of that, measuring a person's waist in public is not a standard practice of airlines faced with the problem of a passengers size. Matter of fact this is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. Golly gee, that's discrimination.

So they don't get the luxeries of those things. Its the way the world works.

That doesn't mean that it's right.

 

[jamaesi]

Is measuring a man an embarrassment or a discrimination? If it is discrimination, as a man who likes wearing belts, I don't want to be discriminated against when I'm forced to take mine off when going through a metal detector, especially when there are lots of persons with belts getting through without this kind of harrassment.

Should I be discriminated against because I buy a nice belt with sturdy metal parts?

If you argue that your bags will fit in the overhead, is it discrimination when they measure them to tell you it won't?? Is it embarrassing?

Is wearing belts a disability?

I don't throw a fit when my cane gets put through a metal detector and tested for chemicals and bomb residue. I do throw a fit if I'm denied a seat or have to pay extra for a seat that I can sit in it.

 

[jamaesi]

I don't see how extending equality to all people is a loss of reason.

Oh, but what do I know, I'm just a cripple. Let's just bring back eugenetics and you won't have to deal with "undesirables" sullying and dumbing down your species.

 

[klubbhead024]

Obesity is considered a legal disability no matter what caused it. ALL places should change to be nondiscriminatory.

If you gorge yourself and become morbidly obese... you shouldn't be considered as a legal disability. A disability is something that is beyond your control. Putting the fork down would not constitute as something beyond your control

 

[Bishka]

Putting the fork down would not constitute as something beyond your control

Apparently you are letting ignorance close you eyes to the fact that there are real people out there that are obese, and it's not their fault. In fact, I knew a woman in my old congregation, no matter what she did, exercise, diet, anything, she would gain weight, the doctors diagnosed her with something (pardon my forgetfullness at the moment) and said that it was by nothing that she did that she was obese.

There are people out there that actually eat themselves to death, and they can't help it. It's a diagnosable disorder, and my mum's uncle died from it. They physically and mentally can't stop eating, so they just die by overeating themselves.

Yes, there are some people that can put the fork down and chose not to, but I think Jameasai is talking about the people who have other diabilities which prevent them from losing the weight. There are things such as insulin resistence, which can prevent weight loss, there are many thing you have to take into consideration here.

 

[Mister_T]

If you gorge yourself and become morbidly obese... you shouldn't be considered as a legal disability. A disability is something that is beyond your control. Putting the fork down would not constitute as something beyond your control

And people who end up quadriplegic from motorcycle accidents shouldn't be considered disabled either. After all, it was in their control whether or not to ride a motorcycle

 

[FatMan]

I don't see how extending equality to all people is a loss of reason.

I fail to see where asking a person who takes up more than one seat to buy another seat violates the principle of "extending equality".

If I read your responses correctly, you want the disabled to have clearly written rules bent to save them embarrassment, or worse yet, discrimination. Whereas I and others are simply asking that the written rules be followed - you take up more than one seat, you pay for it. If you don't like it - choose another form of transportation.

This topic only becomes a matter of discrimination when you present it as such. There is nothing discriminatory about following the rules. Just as it is not discriminatory to measure or weigh somebody's baggage to make sure they fit within the written guidelines.

 

[Booko]

Apparently you are letting ignorance close you eyes to the fact that there are real people out there that are obese, and it's not their fault. In fact, I knew a woman in my old congregation, no matter what she did, exercise, diet, anything, she would gain weight, the doctors diagnosed her with something (pardon my forgetfullness at the moment) and said that it was by nothing that she did that she was obese.

There are many disorders that will prevent people from losing the weight, or even realizing when to put down the fork. You mentioned insulin-resistance (a precursor to Type II diabetes, btw). There are also disfunctions of the thyroid (a friend of mine has Hashimoto's disease...that's one of them). Some people are on medications that will put the weight on, and it won't come off. And then there are people who don't have functional MC3 receptors, so the enzyme that tells the body "quit eating -- you're not hungry now" cannot tell the body to put down the fork. And then, there's the effect of stress and lack of sleep on the body. Not to mention poor diet, which most Americans eat on a daily basis, and quite frankly are not given any sensible information to improve their diet, because agribusiness likes it that way.

It's very easy for someone who does not have any such disorder (and who is ignorant of the medical basis for overweight) to sit in judgement over others.

I'd love to see some of those folks when they hit their 40s and 50s and discover that they too have disorders of this type.

Those of you out there judging the obese as having lack of willpower, all I can say is, pray your karma never catches up with you in this lifetime.

There are people out there that actually eat themselves to death, and they can't help it. It's a diagnosable disorder, and my mum's uncle died from it. They physically and mentally can't stop eating, so they just die by overeating themselves.

Sounds like the MC3 receptor problem.

Yes, there are some people that can put the fork down and chose not to...

And those are usually the folks with a bit of vanity fat -- 25 pounds overweight. You don't usually get to be seriously overweight unless your endocrine system gets out of wonk or something else is going on.

And here's how you can get your endocrine system to go wonky: eat according to that damned food pyramid the gov't teaches all those school children and promotes, and was funded by grain producers and dairy farmers.

There are things such as insulin resistence, which can prevent weight loss, there are many thing you have to take into consideration here.

Yup. I'm insulin-resistant. Nothing I did took weight off. It's a good thing I never went on diets -- that only drives you further down into insulin-resistance, wrecks your thyroid balance, and makes you fatter over time. When I started eating MORE, but eating right for me, I lost some weight.

I still didn't lose all of it, though. I discovered the dairy allergy and went off dairy. I lost 10 pounds. Now I discovered the corn allergy and lost another 5.

Putting down the fork is not the issue. It's putting the right thing ON the fork, and frequently enough, that's worked for me.

If I'd followed the advice of the "you're lazy, get thin by exercise and cutting calories" crowd, I would now be a diabetic.

Yeah...that would be really smart. :sarcastic

Too often we think "get thin to be healthy" but the truth is we have to "get healthy, and then you'll be thin."

 

[Bishka]

Yup. I'm insulin-resistant. Nothing I did took weight off. It's a good thing I never went on diets -- that only drives you further down into insulin-resistance, wrecks your thyroid balance, and makes you fatter over time. When I started eating MORE, but eating right for me, I lost some weight.

You too? I'm also insulin-resitant and for over a year, nothing I did, diets, excercisng, etc. did anything for me. I finally went to my doctors and they gave me some metaformin, and told me to eat right and it the lbs. would come off. I did what they said and lost over 20 lbs.

I need to do some more of that.

 

[Booko]

You too? I'm also insulin-resitant and for over a year, nothing I did, diets, excercisng, etc. did anything for me. I finally went to my doctors and they gave me some metaformin, and told me to eat right and it the lbs. would come off. I did what they said and lost over 20 lbs.

Insulin-resistance is what happens when you follow the food pyramid's advice (among other things) and women are far more likely to put on the fat than men, just because of how our endocrine systems work (what fun!).

My cortisol levels were through the roof. My doc ordered me to STOP exercising, because it was making me sicker and making me fatter.

My cortisol levels have been normal for about a year now, so I think my doc will release me to work on some weights at least, which will be really nice.

I've only just gotten off the corn (well, mostly -- it's really VERY hard to eliminate completely*), and it'll take (for me) probably 4-5 years for me to fully detox. The weight is not likely to come off much in the next year, though the more I work on detoxing, the better.

Another method is to STOP some of the toxic crap from coming in in the first place. Eating organic food is a help, avoiding other sources of toxins like cleaning products and bug sprays, etc.


*I only recently found out that Charmin and Kleenex are dusted with cornstarch. Gee, thanks! Now I have to tote my own TP along with me when I leave the bloody house! :149:

 

[Ryan2065]

Obesity is considered a legal disability no matter what caused it. ALL places should change to be nondiscriminatory.

I am talking about the cause of the obesity. How about this jamaesi... Lets say there is an overweight person who takes up two seats booked for a flight that is completely full. Who should be bumped from the flight? A skinny person or the overweight person? Is it not discrimination to always pick the overweight person?

No, embarassing them is obvious ill-treatment. He paid for them to get him from point A to point B, not to be discriminated against because of a disability. Where did I ever say peopleshouldget things for free? If you've been reading my posts I have just merely said that everyone should be treated equal even if they are disabled.

Everyone is treated equally... If anyone else needed two seats and the plane was almost full they would have to pay for them as well.

I don't see airlines forcing wheelchaired individuals to buy first class. They already have designated spaces.

Yea, most of those airlines give those people traveling with wheelchairs aisle seats. At least that is what it seems to be like at
Northwest: http://www.nwa.com/services/onboard/special/plan.shtml
Southwest: http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/disability.html
Delta: http://www.delta.com/planning_reservations/special_travel_needs/services_travelers_disabilities/special_concerns/index.jsp#seating

They haven't made any bigger seats for these people... Just looked at what seats they have available and figured out what people would find more comfortable given their disability.

I've been on airlines, and they do not have a waist size limit. Not to mention the fact that the man in the article has flown NUMEROUS times without any problems.

As their policy states they may be forced to make them pay for another ticket... Again.... More than likely they only force a person to buy another ticket for taking up two seats if the airplane is nearing full capacity. The policy does not say they will always make them pay for the extra seat... Just that they may be asked to pay for another seat.

And on top of that, measuring a person's waist in public is not a standard practice of airlines faced with the problem of a passengers size. Matter of fact this is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. Golly gee, that's discrimination.

So are you saying that they measured his waist in public because he was fat? So if he agreed to pay the amount right off the bat they still would measure his waiste just because he is fat? Do you have any evidence of this? If not, then I'm sorry, it is not discrimination.

I'm not saying it was right... But at least lets label it right... It was stupid, not discrimination.

I don't see how extending equality to all people is a loss of reason.

Oh, but what do I know, I'm just a cripple. Let's just bring back eugenetics and you won't have to deal with "undesirables" sullying and dumbing down your species.

So people who do not agree with you are promoting eugenetics? How exactly does eugenetics come into the debate? Did someone mention that we should get rid of the fat people somewhere that I did not see?

"I'm not comfortable!"
"Well you have to pay more for comfort..."
"Quit promoting eugenetics!"

And people who end up quadriplegic from motorcycle accidents shouldn't be considered disabled either. After all, it was in their control whether or not to ride a motorcycle

Becoming fat is a reasonable consequence from eating too much and not exercising. Ride your motorcycle down an animal trail through the woods for the fun of it and see how much money your insurance company will pay you for the damages.

And just a note... I am not talking about people who become obese DUE to a medical condition... To me they should be allowed to follow the same rules as everyone else with a disability that requires special attention by the airlines... Namely that little rule that says you might be required to show medical papers proving your disability.

 

[FatMan]

So people who do not agree with you are promoting eugenetics? How exactly does eugenetics come into the debate? Did someone mention that we should get rid of the fat people somewhere that I did not see?

"I'm not comfortable!"
"Well you have to pay more for comfort..."
"Quit promoting eugenetics!"

That is an excellent response. Somewhere along the way, this topic went from being about following the written rules of an airline to ridding the planet of obese people. Theoroetically, if this debate had stayed on topic, it would have only lasted about 4 posts.

 

[Mister_T]

They haven't made any bigger seats for these people... Just looked at what seats they have available and figured out what people would find more comfortable given their disability

They give them seats in a designated area usually towards the back of the plane that are more spacious and more comfortable to suit their needs. They do not have to pay extra for it. Overweight people do.

As their policy states they may be forced to make them pay for another ticket... Again.... More than likely they only force a person to buy another ticket for taking up two seats if the airplane is nearing full capacity. The policy does not say they will always make them pay for the extra seat... Just that they may be asked to pay for another seat.

Their policy doesn't state that you have to be a certain waist size in order to sit in a single seat. This man apparently flies quite often which means he has been on a plane at full capcity and has had no problem with a single seat before.

So are you saying that they measured his waist in public because he was fat?

I believe that has a lot to do with it.

So if he agreed to pay the amount right off the bat they still would measure his waiste just because he is fat? Do you have any evidence of this? If not, then I'm sorry, it is not discrimination.

I'm not saying it was right... But at least lets label it right... It was stupid, not discrimination.

I don't see them measuring tall people or bodybuilders when they get on planes. Sorry, that's discrimination.

Becoming fat is a reasonable consequence from eating too much and not exercising

So is becoming paralyzed because you wanted to joyride on a motorcycle. But we're not allowed to discriminate against them.

 

[FatMan]

I don't see them measuring tall people or bodybuilders when they get on planes. Sorry, that's discrimination.

Actually, I fly quite often and have never seen anyone get measured. That leads me to believe this person was measured because he refused to pay for an extra seat, forcing the airline to prove that his dimensions were too large.

To me, that isn't discrimination. It's proving a written rule.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

When people fly, they are paying for a seat on the plane. If they take up more than one seat, they should have to pay for more than one seat. I think it's pretty simple.

Not in the modern entitlement-culture it isn't.

 

[FatMan]

Not in the modern entitlement-culture it isn't.

That absolutely correct. In this thread alone, we've been told that not flying is "just not an option" for some people, whereas it is certainly an option - albeit maybe not an attractive one.

Somewhere down the line, people have confused what is a need and what is a luxury to the point that they use incorrect examples of each. Life is a series of choices. And some of the ones we refuse to take may not be chosen for very good reasons, but they are still choices available to us.

 

[Mister_T]

Actually, I fly quite often and have never seen anyone get measured. That leads me to believe this person was measured because he refused to pay for an extra seat, forcing the airline to prove that his dimensions were too large.

To me, that isn't discrimination. It's proving a written rule.

Of course he refused to pay for an extra seat. He's never had to pay for one before on a flight.

And a person who's tall or a bodybuilder have dimensions that are "too large" and yet they do not receive this kind of treatment. That is discrimination.