Pagan influence on Christianity

[Unveiled Artist]

Don't feed the troll.

Okay. Okay. (Gets up slowly) Thank you for that warning.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Specifically the belief in all three that Genesis, and the Pentateuch are literal scripture as Revelation and the consequences of those beliefs.

The Qur'an only affirms the original Tawrat revealed to Moses pbuh. No Muslim that I know of believes in a literal reading of the Genesis account.

Judaism has backed way from this in recent centuries appealing to Midrash. Christians and Muslims often question or reject evolution based on Genesis.

Was the founder of your faith a Buddha type figure who

Actually in relation to Judaism, Christianity and Islam I am referring Canaanite, Ugarit, Babylonian, Roman pagan beliefs.

Considering the Seal of Prophets, Muhammad pbuh worshipped the God of Adam pbuh, please explain what pagan beliefs carried over from the descendants of Adam pbuh into Islam, and what's wrong with them in the sight of God?

Talking of God, could you tell me how Baha'u'llah proved he was a representative of Allah swt or was he a travelling wise man like Buddha?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sin cities like San Fran, New Orleans, Los Angeles and others are the modern day Sodom Gomorrah, modern day Pompeii and Herculaneum

Okay... so you don't like us. Now what?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Wait. You aren't the couple in your signature? I thought you were a gay couple

No. I am a female. I don't know them personally. We talked on Facebook with a lot of LGBTQ who went to the Equality March early this month.

I know you want to see them burn in hell if they don't repent; but, at least at the March we had a lot of civil people even if they didn't agree.

I mean, you could have asked and went into a respectful conversation.

Anyway, I got to go sin now. Putting on my roller skates and move to the grove.

 

[shunyadragon]

Do not bold your writing.

Read my definition of paganism.

Are you saying that your religion is so new it has no history and connection to which Bahai religion originated?

(No, you are not Eureopean Pagans. Stop asking)

There are Ugarit, Canaanite and Babylonian paganism that corrupted Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Roman pagan beliefs corrupted Christianity. I do not believe Celtic religion had a significant influence on Christianity.

Considering religions outside the mainstream religions is a meaningless definition.

Do you consider all religions pagan?

If you include the Baha'i Faith has pagan beliefs you will have document by references, and not unfounded assertions.

Still waiting . . .

 

[Kenny]

Why has Satan located himself on the San Andreas fault? He is wise, and he knows that these place will be destroyed. And he wants to see many humans burn in hell. So he makes them worship him at Bohemian Grove, and then commit sins in San Francisco, Los Angeles and the Porn Valley, while he prays to God to destroy these evil people. And God will destroy them.

Very simple...

It doesn't fit the narrative and the example that was listed in the story of Abraham that you quoted.

You might want to study a little more before you give ridiculous and unsupported statements.

Your above statements are corroded with twisted opinions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Since you are so Pro-LGBTQIABCDEFGH, i am assuming that you are a genderbent queersexual bi-gender lesbian transperson?

Bye

Whats a LGBTQIABCDEFGH person?

Did you know I didnt know what half these letters meant until I came online? You must be younger than me or pretty old and stuck in one train thought.

Are you a christian?

 

[Kenny]

I am sorry if you are not pro-active in saving the sinners from their destruction

You have absolutely no idea what I do but your statements hardly, if at all, leads anyone to repentance.

 

[Kenny]

Whats a LGBTQIABCDEFGH person?

Did you know I didnt know what half these letters meant until I came online? You must be younger than me or pretty old and stuck in one train thought.

Are you a christian?

@NayaVeda is no more a Christian that me being a car because I stand in a garage.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Qur'an only affirms the original Tawrat revealed to Moses pbuh. No Muslim that I know of believes in a literal reading of the Genesis account.

The claim that Moses wrote Genesis is problematic, because in Judaism, Christianity and Islam considering Moses wrote Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus. Numbers, and most of Deuteronomy gives it Divine authority including claims of prophecies for Muhammad.

This is not actually accurate for Islam as whole in history. It does not accept the science of evolution and the science of the history of our universe in preference to the mythology of scripture, if not Genesis then the Quran.

From: Islamic mythology - Wikipedia

"According to the Qur'an, the skies and the earth were joined together as one "unit of creation", after which they were "cloven asunder".[7] After the parting of both, they simultaneously came into their present shape after going through a phase when they were smoke-like.[8] Some parts of the Qur'an state that the process of creation took 6 days,[9] Other parts provide detail about creation. 2 days to create the Earth,[10] 2 days to create the mountains, to bless the Earth and to measure its sustenance, total 4 days,[11][12] and then 2 more days to create the heavens and the stars.[13] In the Quran, the word "day" is used loosely to mean era, for example Surah 70 verse 4: "The angels and spirit will ascend to Him during a day the extent of which is fifty thousand years".

The Qur'an states that God created the world and the cosmos, made all the creatures that walk, swim, crawl, and fly on the face of the earth from water.[7] He made the angels, and the sun, moon and the stars to dwell in the universe. He poured down the rain in torrents, and broke up the soil to bring forth the corn, the grapes and other vegetation; the olive and the palm, the fruit trees and the grass. Traditionally, the earth is held to be inhabited by several other creatures, like the Jinn, before Godcreated human.[14]

God molded clay, earth, sand, and water into a model of a man. He breathed life and power into it, and it immediately sprang to life. And this first man was called Adam. God took Adam to live in a Paradise. God taught Adam the names of all the creatures, and then commanded all the angels to bow down before Adam. All of them bowed but Iblis refused to obey.

God placed Adam and Eve in a beautiful garden in Paradise, telling them that they could eat whatever they wanted except the fruit of a forbidden tree. Satan tempted them to disobey God, and eat the fruit. When Adam and Eve had disobeyed God, God cast them out of Paradise. Muslim scholars are divided whether the Paradise, from which Adam and Eve were expelled, is the paradise in the heavens awarded to the righteous at the day of judgement or was it a paradise on earth.

Islam breaks somewhat with Judaism and Christianity in explaining why Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. In the Hebrew account in Genesis, a snake tempts them to eat the fruit. While the Genesis creation narrative does not explicitly identify the snake with Satan, that Satan and the snake are the same being is claimed in the New Testament, in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2. In Genesis, Eve was tempted but Adam was not.[15][16] In contrast, the Qur'an states explicitly that Shaitan (Satan) tempted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit.[17] Unlike Christian traditions, which sees Satan as a rebelling angel, Islamic tradition identifies Shaitans disobedience as an result of his superior nature out of fire, in contrast to the nature of humans,[18] since angels in Islam do not rebel against God.[19][20] God cast Iblis out of his paradise, and Iblis vowed to tempt Adam and Eve's generations to corruption and to disobey God."

Was the founder of your faith a Buddha type figure who . . .

Who . . .???

Considering the Seal of Prophets, Muhammad pbuh worshipped the God of Adam pbuh, please explain what pagan beliefs carried over from the descendants of Adam pbuh into Islam, and what's wrong with them in the sight of God?

Some of this explained above. More to follow . . .

Talking of God, could you tell me how Baha'u'llah proved he was a representative of Allah swt or was he a travelling wise man like Buddha?

There is no proof of any religious claim, including Islam and the station of Muhammad. If proof for Muhammad existed the world would Islamic. The greatest argument against Islam is bloody rift and total lack of peace in Islam in the world and the oppression of all minority religions in Islamic countries.

This would not even make Muhammad a peaceful enlightened figure like Buddha.

The argument for the Baha'i Faith and the station of Baha'u'llah is in the writings of the Baha'i Faith. You may investigate it for yourself, but I doubt you will.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There are Ugarit, Canaanite and Babylonian paganism that corrupted Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Roman pagan beliefs corrupted Christianity. I do not believe Celtic religion had a significant influence on Christianity.

Considering religions outside the mainstream religions is a meaningless definition.

Do you consider all religions pagan?

If you include the Baha'i Faith has pagan beliefs you will have document by references, and not unfounded assertions.

Still waiting . . .

Listen.

Paganism is just religions that are native to a given country.

If your religion does not have paganism in it (religious traditions Bahaullah practiced)

Where did your religion come from?

Bahai is not christian, muslim, or jew. So you are pagan by that definition.

Bahai has traditions and holidays, for example, of your native land...where Iraq? Iran? That is pagan.

You are not Eureopean Pagan.

Read this whole thing before replying and take out your definition of paganism because it does not apply to bahai. You are not roman.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am sorry if you are not pro-active in saving the sinners from their destruction

Do you have the power to do so????

 

[shunyadragon]

Listen.

Paganism is just religions that are native to a given country.

If your religion does not have paganism in it (religious traditions Baha'u'llah practiced)

Where did your religion come from?

Revelation from God.

Baha'i is not christian, muslim, or jew. So you are pagan by that definition.

By a warped religiocentric definition when each religion consider most others pagan, accept of course those in their domain of succession as Christianity only considers Judaism not pagan.

Baha'i has traditions and holidays, for example, of your native land...where Iraq? Iran? That is pagan.

No. the only celebration common to some religions and Iranian tradition is a non-religious celebration of the New Year, which is March 21.

You are not Eureopean Pagan.

Of course not, neither is Judaism, Christianity nor Islam. They are corrupted by Ugarit, Canaanite, and Babylonian paganism

Read this whole thing before replying and take out your definition of paganism because it does not apply to bahai. You are not Roman.

The definition is rteligiocentric and biased, and terribly not useful. I do not accept the definition. If I was a Christian and I want to consider all other religions and belief systems as pagan except Judaism, it would be useful to egocentrically justify that my belief in Christianity is the only true belief. Of course, that is sheer egocentric foolishness,

 

[shunyadragon]

Listen.

Paganism is just religions that are native to a given country.

I do not accept this definition of paganism for reasons cited.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You have a very negative and biased view of the word paganism. I dont understand why.

By a warped religiocentric definition when each religion consider most others pagan, accept of course those in their domain of succession as Christianity only considers Judaism not pagan.

the only celebration common to some religions and Iranian tradition

That is weird. I always see one of your peers post in he Bahai DIR a holiday or two. On your web site you uave other holidays. Maybe you just dont like traditions and holidays associated to your religion.

They are just words.

Of course not, neither is Judaism, Christianity nor Islam. They are corrupted by Ugarit, Canaanite, and Babylonian paganism

So what is the problem then? You are not Pagan, you just have indegenious religious traditions (pagan) from your native lands in each of your faiths that make up what it is today. Some people call it pagan traditions. I will say "cultural traditions" instead of pagan since that word seems to set all of you off.

 

[Muslim-UK]

The claim that Moses wrote Genesis is problematic, because in Judaism, Christianity and Islam considering Moses wrote Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus. Numbers, and most of Deuteronomy gives it Divine authority including claims of prophecies for Muhammad.

No where does Islam claim Moses pbuh wrote the torah.

This is not actually accurate for Islam as whole in history. It does not accept the science of evolution and the science of the history of our universe in preference to the mythology of scripture, if not Genesis then the Quran.

That's because the theory of life, starting from proteins formed from a primordial soup, 3.5 - 3.9 Billion years ago resulting in the first self replicating living cell is unproven, and can never be proved using the scientific method.

From: Islamic mythology - Wikipedia

"According to the Qur'an, the skies and the earth were joined together as one "unit of creation", after which they were "cloven asunder".[7] After the parting of both, they simultaneously came into their present shape after going through a phase when they were smoke-like.[8] Some parts of the Qur'an state that the process of creation took 6 days,[9] Other parts provide detail about creation. 2 days to create the Earth,[10] 2 days to create the mountains, to bless the Earth and to measure its sustenance, total 4 days,[11][12] and then 2 more days to create the heavens and the stars.[13] In the Quran, the word "day" is used loosely to mean era, for example Surah 70 verse 4: "The angels and spirit will ascend to Him during a day the extent of which is fifty thousand years".

Considering the Qur'an is a book of signs, not science, what do you disagree with here?

The Qur'an states that God created the world and the cosmos, made all the creatures that walk, swim, crawl, and fly on the face of the earth from water.[7] He made the angels, and the sun, moon and the stars to dwell in the universe. He poured down the rain in torrents, and broke up the soil to bring forth the corn, the grapes and other vegetation; the olive and the palm, the fruit trees and the grass. Traditionally, the earth is held to be inhabited by several other creatures, like the Jinn, before Godcreated human.[14]

ok

God molded clay, earth, sand, and water into a model of a man. He breathed life and power into it, and it immediately sprang to life. And this first man was called Adam. God took Adam to live in a Paradise. God taught Adam the names of all the creatures, and then commanded all the angels to bow down before Adam. All of them bowed but Iblis refused to obey.

Iblis (Satan) was of the Jinn.

God placed Adam and Eve in a beautiful garden in Paradise, telling them that they could eat whatever they wanted except the fruit of a forbidden tree. Satan tempted them to disobey God, and eat the fruit. When Adam and Eve had disobeyed God, God cast them out of Paradise. Muslim scholars are divided whether the Paradise, from which Adam and Eve were expelled, is the paradise in the heavens awarded to the righteous at the day of judgement or was it a paradise on earth.

Where the Paradise is doesn't matter.

Islam breaks somewhat with Judaism and Christianity in explaining why Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. In the Hebrew account in Genesis, a snake tempts them to eat the fruit. While the Genesis creation narrative does not explicitly identify the snake with Satan, that Satan and the snake are the same being is claimed in the New Testament, in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2. In Genesis, Eve was tempted but Adam was not.[15][16] In contrast, the Qur'an states explicitly that Shaitan (Satan) tempted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit.[17] Unlike Christian traditions, which sees Satan as a rebelling angel, Islamic tradition identifies Shaitans disobedience as an result of his superior nature out of fire, in contrast to the nature of humans,[18] since angels in Islam do not rebel against God.[19][20] God cast Iblis out of his paradise, and Iblis vowed to tempt Adam and Eve's generations to corruption and to disobey God."

Yes in Islam Eve pbuh is not singled out for blame. The lesson from that story is, will you admit your error and turn to God like Adam and Eve pbut did, or will you blame someone else and rebel against God like Satan did. 2 paths for mankind to choose using free will.

Who . . .???

Sorry, not sure what happened there:

Who travelled the lands picking up knowledge from different people or was he a Prophet approved of by God?

Some of this explained above. More to follow . . .

Ok but explain what parts you actually disagree with.

There is no proof of any religious claim, including Islam and the station of Muhammad. If proof for Muhammad existed the world would Islamic. The greatest argument against Islam is bloody rift and total lack of peace in Islam in the world and the oppression of all minority religions in Islamic countries.

So in answer to my question, you submit zero proof? Ok

You ignore the fact Muslims, Jews and Christians have lived together for Centuries. What do you mean if proof for Muhammad pbuh existed? do you mean to say people wrote 700,000 Hadiths about someone who didn't exist?

This would not even make Muhammad a peaceful enlightened figure like Buddha.

I wasn't comparing Muhammad pbuh to Buddha. I was asking, but it somehow left a section off the post, if Bab was like Buddha.

The argument for the Baha'i Faith and the station of Baha'u'llah is in the writings of the Baha'i Faith. You may investigate it for yourself, but I doubt you will.

Another person of the Bahai faith tells me both the Mahdi and Jesus pbut returned already and were the founders of Bahai. I've asked what they achieved militarily, as the prophecies are quite clear on the subject. If they match up, yes I'll be happy to investigate the writings further. There have been lots of claims to both Jesus and the Mahdi pbut over the years, and each case has to be looked at against the Prophecies.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do not accept this definition of paganism for reasons cited.

You dont have to accept it. We can call it indegenous traditions. Native traditions. Cultural traditions.

Paganism isnt a specific word for a specific set of practices. Its not all about polytheism. All about, I dont know, worshiping statues. (Just making a statement and point)

Just abrahamics dont like the wors for some reason. In christian history, people who had indigeneous practices thst originated from the land of origin were killed. They were called pagans because they were not christians. Roman paganism is just Roman traditions and religions practiced before christianity became the dominate religion.

Its just a word.

 

[Muslim-UK]

There are Hellenic influences on Christianity, why would anyone expect otherwise?

So you understand God becoming incarnate is a concept alien to Judaism?

Mithraism too

Going for the youtube full house?

#12zodiac12apostles

We might not have to if the worship of Jesus pbuh can be explained in the context of Pagan influence. I should mention some of the connections between Sun worship and Christianity:

The Romans worshipped the Sun Gods like Mithras and Sol Invictus, celebrated the Sun's rebirth Dec 25 after 3 days of death 22/23/24 Dec.

Celebrated with a 12 day feast which, included bread and wine, Mithras was born in a cave of a female rock, the petra genetix, (peter the rock) slayed a bull in whose blood the world was made new again. He was considered to be the intercessor between man and God, initiates had their foreheads marked with the Phoenician letter taw, (X) and were reborn after a ceremony. 3 wise men came to him with gifts and believing in him granted followers Salvation. We shouldn't draw any conclusions from the fact The radiated solar crown depicted on the Sun Gods are very reminiscent of Christ’s halo. There was a priesthood type hierarchy within this cult and some say he was born of a virgin, though the evidence for that last point seems weak.

Who were the followers of this mystery cult? The Roman Elite including Constantine and many Roman soldiers who had come into contact with the various forms of Sun worship found amongst the Persians, Egyptians, Indians and Greeks.

Hadith were recorded centuries after the fact based on tradition, contain stories about a rock with legs, flying donkeys, moons splitting in half and all other kinds of fantastical things.

The flying donkey and splitting moon are both mutawatir and thus the highest possible degree of authenticity. The rock that ran off with Moses' clothes is sahih.

If you want to believe that fair enough, no skin off my nose. People can believe whatever they like about things you can't 'prove' either way.

Centuries after the facts? Which one of those Hadiths related to Friday is recorded centuries later, and what is your proof?
As for these new unrelated Hadiths you've thrown in, if you don't believe in the supernatural why bother defending Christianity? Does your Religion not mention, unicorns, flying dragons, and a talking donkey?

Why should non-Muslims trust your theology any more than you trust the theology of non-Muslims though?

It's just another religious tradition. You expect yours to get special treatment though.

We're examining the evidence. I believe we can conclude, neither Jesus pbuh nor God commanded the day of the Sabbath to be changed. It was changed by non Jews accustomed to worshipping the Sun.

Well, the Arabs dropped the Sabbath and chose to honour the day of Venus - Roman Friday. Seems all is possible if you apply the same standards to both cases (i.e they din't honour the day of Venus, the 2 just coincided).

I explained why the day was changed, and provided the Hadiths. You can't simply brush it all aside and impose your understanding in an attempt to defend the Pagan influence on Christianity.

It's called supersessionism, as a Muslim you understand the concept.

Christianity and Islam are supersessionist, and thus change things about the 'inferior' religions they replaced.

Not quite, Christianity made Pagan worship of mortal man a Global affair. Islam on the other hand, swept idolatry away from the Arabian Peninsula, so we can see a vast improvement there.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Actually in relation to Judaism, Christianity and Islam I am referring Canaanite, Ugarit, Babylonian, Roman pagan beliefs.

Generally when people like to use "pagan", they do so from a "historical sense". With such, three of those religions are out, as the Romans (who made the word) had no contact with them. Paganus was applied to country-dwellers, rather than city folk, and when Christianity was made the state religion it was applied to non-christians who retained the beliefs of their forefathers. The term never really left Europe in cultural application.

Christians, however, continued to apply the term (along with hæðen/hæthen) to non-christians, as a derogatory term to debase them as less-than-human or no better than beasts. It was in this use that the terms were applied to indigenous Americans, Hindus, Asian beliefs, etc. Continuing to use it as "little-p paganism" doesn't make it better.

Today, though, as a proper noun (the capitalization) Paganism is embraced by (most) pre-Christian reconstruction religions of Europe. Hindus don't identify with it, Kemeticists rail against it, and even the indigenous tribes of America didn't know what it was until it was explained to them. It's not just the Abrahamic faiths that don't like the word. Paganism today is a specific word for a specific set of practices, all of which happen to be polytheistic.

Everything is just words, and when you apply it willy-nilly to where everyone under the sun can apply, it means nothing.

 

[Augustus]

So you understand God becoming incarnate is a concept alien to Judaism?

Plenty of things about both Christianity and Islam are alien to Judaism.

All religions evolve, and sometimes new ones are gradually born over time.

The Romans worshipped the Sun Gods like Mithras and Sol Invictus, celebrated the Sun's rebirth Dec 25 after 3 days of death 22/23/24 Dec.

Major problem number 1: Mithras and Sol Invictus became popular after the birth of Christianity and Jesus-as-God developed early in the history of Christianity.

Celebrated with a 12 day feast which, included bread and wine, Mithras was born in a cave of a female rock, the petra genetix, (peter the rock) slayed a bull in whose blood the world was made new again. He was considered to be the intercessor between man and God, initiates had their foreheads marked with the Phoenician letter taw, (X) and were reborn after a ceremony. 3 wise men came to him with gifts and believing in him granted followers Salvation. We shouldn't draw any conclusions from the fact The radiated solar crown depicted on the Sun Gods are very reminiscent of Christ’s halo. There was a priesthood type hierarchy within this cult and some say he was born of a virgin, though the evidence for that last point seems weak.

Who were the followers of this mystery cult? The Roman Elite including Constantine and many Roman soldiers who had come into contact with the various forms of Sun worship found amongst the Persians, Egyptians, Indians and Greeks.

Major problem number 2: Most of this is downright false, or simply unsupported speculation about the meaning of images that we understand very little about.

Centuries after the facts? Which one of those Hadiths related to Friday is recorded centuries later, and what is your proof?

The point was about hadiths in general. To trust them as being an accurate record one must believe in the moon splitting in half without anyone seeing it; a flying donkey; and rocks with legs.

Many seem to be suspiciously convenient ways of explaining parts of the Quran that early exegetes didn't understand.

Believe what you want about them, but when people treat them with the same scrutiny that they apply to every other aspect of human history they clearly are much better theological resources than historical ones.

We're examining the evidence. I believe we can conclude, neither Jesus pbuh nor God commanded the day of the Sabbath to be changed. It was changed by non Jews accustomed to worshipping the Sun.

We can probably assume that Jesus didn't command it, although the stuff about 'sun worshippers' is not supported by any rigorous historical evidence you have presented.

For theological reasons, Muslims tend to be obsessed with polytheism and paganism and want to see it everywhere to 'prove' their monotheist chops.

When you step outside the theological world though and move into actual history, your religious presuppositions need to be left behind.

I explained why the day was changed, and provided the Hadiths. You can't simply brush it all aside and impose your understanding in an attempt to defend the Pagan influence on Christianity.

What is the proof that it doesn't simply reflect the preference of Umar when he introduced the calendar? Only your tradition. Christian Sunday is also based on tradition.

You take on faith that your tradition is correct, but don't take on faith other people's traditions are correct. I don't take either of the traditions on faith.

Religions don't emerge in a vacuum. They reflect the social situations in which they arise. This doesn't mean we can just make up whatever we like as an exercise in religious one-upmanship.

Not quite, Christianity made Pagan worship of mortal man a Global affair. Islam on the other hand, swept idolatry away from the Arabian Peninsula, so we can see a vast improvement there.

It wasn't 'pagan' though, it was distinctly Christian. Jesus was an eschatological prophet (as Muhammad seems to have been), when he died before the eschaton his disciples had to create a new narrative which later became Christianity.

Fair enough if it isn't 'monotheist enough' for your likings, that's your choice. Many Jews think so too. The obsession with making it about nasty pagans though is a bit silly.

Also, idolatry tends to be in the eye of the beholder, it's what people you don't like do (even when it resembles your own practices). What happened in the early days of what later became Islam is pretty opaque and the region was already well versed in the 2 Abrahamic religions. If you forget the later traditions and look only at the text, you would assume that the Quran is addressing an audience already well versed in Biblical narratives. Many who took part in the Arab conquests were Jews and Christians as well as the proto-Muslims.