Pagan influence on Christianity

[Augustus]

It's not about making the Jews arbitrators. Is Christianity not based on the Torah? Yes it is, and does the Torah allow for men to be made partners unto God in worship?

No never.

TL;DR Jews think of your religion the way you think of Christianity. Ask them if you don't believe me.

Constantine had the power to decide who lived and who died. Was he not able to reward those loyal to him? Wasn't it the case many Bishops did not attend his Council of Nicea?

Nicaea was about Arianism.

Of the Nicean Council, Church History records:

Stuff about Arianism and Christology.

Nothing about Mithras.

Not in any detail, only to dismiss Hadiths. The word for Friday in Arabic is Jumah, the very name of the chapter you quoted from:

As noted, the Arabic calendar emerged later under Umar.

The Arabs renamed the days of the week, the Romans didn't.

You come across as a Christian, hence your defending of its Pagan roots in the face of overwhelming evidence. Don't worry I'm sure even unbiased Scholars, have some kind of confirmation bias linked to the Religion they were born into

I'm far happier discussing the history of Islam than I am Christianity. Neither of which is my religion and neither of which has ever been my religion.

The traditional narratives of both are pretty dubious. I'm going to guess that you are far more credulous as regards texts critical of Christianity than Islam though.

You are unlikely to cite random texts about Islam as authoritative if they disagree with your tradition, but are happy to do so as regards Christianity.

I have no cognitive dissonance as I care little about who is 'right'. I've been called a Muslim far more times than I've been called a Christian here, my profile clearly states 'none' though.

People are not very observant in general.

Dozens of books have been written by Western Historians on the links between Christianity and Paganism.

So are you claiming Western scholars are to believed when talking about religion in general, or only religion except your own?

 

[Muslim-UK]

TL;DR Jews think of your religion the way you think of Christianity. Ask them if you don't believe me.

What the average Jew thinks of Islam is of no concern to me. I can use their own Scholars to refute most of their claims, which doesn't happen often as the average Jew has little interest in discussing religion.

Nicaea was about Arianism.

Stuff about Arianism and Christology.

Nothing about Mithras.

I'm showing Constantine had a great influence and shaped Christianity.

As noted, the Arabic calendar emerged later under Umar.

The Arabs renamed the days of the week, the Romans didn't.

Qur'an says Friday, Hadiths say Friday, and now you say the days were changed by Caliph Umar, may Allah swt be pleased with him. Where's the proof showing days of the week were changed?

 

[Augustus]

What the average Jew thinks of Islam is of no concern to me. I can use their own Scholars to refute most of their claims, which doesn't happen often as the average Jew has little interest in discussing religion.

Don't know about the average Jew, but whenever a Christian/Muslim believes they have a better understanding of Jewish texts than the ones here, it usually turns out that they very clearly do not.

I'm showing Constantine had a great influence and shaped Christianity.

What did he do other than end persecution of and improve the status of it in the Roman Empire? (he didn't even make it the official religion)

What are these grand theological changes he introduced?

At best, he favoured one preexisting interpretation over another.

Qur'an says Friday, Hadiths say Friday, and now you say the days were changed by Caliph Umar, may Allah swt be pleased with him. Where's the proof showing days of the week were changed?

Once more, you keep missing the point.

The Quran says day of congregation, at the time this was written this meant day of congregation, not specifically Friday.

AFAIK, Jumu'a was not a day of the week at this point as the Arabs did not have a single fixed calendar. The congregation referenced in Jumu'a, the day of congregation, is an Islamic practice. The method of naming days in Arabic was introduced in the standardised Arabic calendar of Umar. Quran predates the Arabic calendar

Seeing as historical evidence seems to suggest that a specifically Muslim identity took time to develop and didn't magically emerge fully formed out of a bottle, the only evidence that Friday was always the day of congregation is an unreliable tradition.

The point was never 'Muslims changed their holy day', it was 'Muslims rely on traditions that cannot be proved the same as Christians do regarding their special day'. Also that if Arabs hadn't changed their calendar when they conquered new territory, then Friday would be named after Venus or something or other. This wouldn't be an argument the Muslims worship planets, but is the same argument you use regarding 'sun worship'.

 

[Muslim-UK]

What did he do other than end persecution of and improve the status of it in the Roman Empire? (he didn't even make it the official religion)

What are these grand theological changes he introduced?

At best, he favoured one preexisting interpretation over another.

Church History records:

"Though the emperor was filled with great optimism, many bishops were not as thrilled. A novice in the faith had pushed for a creed that had contained a key non-scriptural term and had not been well thought-out. It was also clear that the Church now was under a certain amount of governmental control. Where bishops had been excommunicated, the emperor had maneurvered to reverse those decisions, as with Eusebius. And now an excommunicated bishop could be exiled by the government. Mostly, however, bishops were thankful that their time of deadly persecution had come to an end. The theological issues addressed at Nicea were not over. In fact, even the situation with Arius would continue for another 60 years."

He had the power to shape Christianity to fit with his Sun worship.

At the above mentioned Council of Nicea, he defined how Jesus pbuh was divine by making him of the same substance as God the Father:

Legend has it, "A statement was read (perhaps written by emperor) welcoming the bishops and rejoicing that the empire had come to peace. Now it was the intention of the emperor that the Church of the Lord be filled with peace. Rufinus records that Constantine had an attendant bring in an armful of scrolls and letters sent to him from all over the empire. It was announced that these communications were letters of accusations and complaints sent by bishops against other bishops. Constantine then let the bishops know that he had not read any of them and instructed his attendant to burn them on the altar, saying that he wanted all grievances settled during their council."

This is pretty clear he was judge and jury here, and demanded peace.

Constantine did introduce, argued for and eventually insisted that the term homoousias be used in a creedal formula from the Council. From that day forth it would be the Universal position of the Catholic Church.

So again, "though the emperor was filled with great optimism, many bishops were not as thrilled. A novice in the faith had pushed for a creed that had contained a key non-scriptural term and had not been well thought out."

Once more, you keep missing the point.

The Quran says day of congregation, at the time this was written this meant day of congregation, not specifically Friday.

AFAIK, Jumu'a was not a day of the week at this point as the Arabs did not have a single fixed calendar. The congregation referenced in Jumu'a, the day of congregation, is an Islamic practice. The method of naming days in Arabic was introduced in the standardised Arabic calendar of Umar. Quran predates the Arabic calendar

Seeing as historical evidence seems to suggest that a specifically Muslim identity took time to develop and didn't magically emerge fully formed out of a bottle, the only evidence that Friday was always the day of congregation is an unreliable tradition.

The point was never 'Muslims changed their holy day', it was 'Muslims rely on traditions that cannot be proved the same as Christians do regarding their special day'. Also that if Arabs hadn't changed their calendar when they conquered new territory, then Friday would be named after Venus or something or other. This wouldn't be an argument the Muslims worship planets, but is the same argument you use regarding 'sun worship'.

This issue is simple to resolve. The Prophet gave sermons on the day of congregation, everyone knew that day fell on the 5th day of the week. Call it whatever you like. Jupiter, Saturn. 'Arubah, Sabt etc

Now can you show me of any instance where a Khalifa or anyone else for that matter, changed this historical tradition to a day other than the day of the congregational prayer?

Today the 5th day is still the day of the congregational prayer, recorded as Friday.

With Christianity it was changed from Saturday as laid down by God to Sun worship day, and I've shown the who and when: Emperor Constantine who in 321 A.D. decreed:

"On the venerable Day of the SUN let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed."

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

If Christians wish to ignore recorded History and believe Sunday had nothing to do with the worship of the Sun, then so be it, but clearly there's no getting away from the Pagan influence on early Christianity. We can look at Easter and see what was significant about the 14/15 of Nisan in relation to the Sun for more links to Paganism if you wish.

 

[Kenny]

Church History records:

"Though the emperor was filled with great optimism, many bishops were not as thrilled. A novice in the faith had pushed for a creed that had contained a key non-scriptural term and had not been well thought-out. It was also clear that the Church now was under a certain amount of governmental control. Where bishops had been excommunicated, the emperor had maneurvered to reverse those decisions, as with Eusebius. And now an excommunicated bishop could be exiled by the government. Mostly, however, bishops were thankful that their time of deadly persecution had come to an end. The theological issues addressed at Nicea were not over. In fact, even the situation with Arius would continue for another 60 years."

He had the power to shape Christianity to fit with his Sun worship.

At the above mentioned Council of Nicea, he defined how Jesus pbuh was divine by making him of the same substance as God the Father:

Legend has it, "A statement was read (perhaps written by emperor) welcoming the bishops and rejoicing that the empire had come to peace. Now it was the intention of the emperor that the Church of the Lord be filled with peace. Rufinus records that Constantine had an attendant bring in an armful of scrolls and letters sent to him from all over the empire. It was announced that these communications were letters of accusations and complaints sent by bishops against other bishops. Constantine then let the bishops know that he had not read any of them and instructed his attendant to burn them on the altar, saying that he wanted all grievances settled during their council."

This is pretty clear he was judge and jury here, and demanded peace.

Constantine did introduce, argued for and eventually insisted that the term homoousias be used in a creedal formula from the Council. From that day forth it would be the Universal position of the Catholic Church.

So again, "though the emperor was filled with great optimism, many bishops were not as thrilled. A novice in the faith had pushed for a creed that had contained a key non-scriptural term and had not been well thought out."

This issue is simple to resolve. The Prophet gave sermons on the day of congregation, everyone knew that day fell on the 5th day of the week. Call it whatever you like. Jupiter, Saturn. 'Arubah, Sabt etc

Now can you show me of any instance where a Khalifa or anyone else for that matter, changed this historical tradition to a day other than the day of the congregational prayer?

Today the 5th day is still the day of the congregational prayer, recorded as Friday.

With Christianity it was changed from Saturday as laid down by God to Sun worship day, and I've shown the who and when: Emperor Constantine who in 321 A.D. decreed:

"On the venerable Day of the SUN let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed."

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

If Christians wish to ignore recorded History and believe Sunday had nothing to do with the worship of the Sun, then so be it, but clearly there's no getting away from the Pagan influence on early Christianity. We can look at Easter and see what was significant about the 14/15 of Nisan in relation to the Sun for more links to Paganism if you wish.

This is so filled with holes as pertaining to today.

Have you ever looked into scriptures as to why they eventually went to Sunday before Constantine ever came on the scene?

 

[Muslim-UK]

This is so filled with holes as pertaining to today.

Have you ever looked into scriptures as to why they eventually went to Sunday before Constantine ever came on the scene?

I've looked at what God Commanded:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I recall Prophet Jesus pbuh saying:

Matthew 5:
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Augustus]

Church History records:

Can you cite sources you refer to please?

"Though the emperor was filled with great optimism, many bishops were not as thrilled. A novice in the faith had pushed for a creed that had contained a key non-scriptural term and had not been well thought-out. It was also clear that the Church now was under a certain amount of governmental control. Where bishops had been excommunicated, the emperor had maneurvered to reverse those decisions, as with Eusebius. And now an excommunicated bishop could be exiled by the government. Mostly, however, bishops were thankful that their time of deadly persecution had come to an end. The theological issues addressed at Nicea were not over. In fact, even the situation with Arius would continue for another 60 years."

Unfortunately you have completely misunderstood the text you quoted (especially the bolded parts) and what happened at Nicaea.

He was seeking a resolution to one of the key Christological disputes of the day to establish a unifying orthodoxy. These issues predate Nicaea by decades and the Deification of Christ predates it by close to 3 Centuries.

Arianism was controversial because it was not orthodox, i.e. the most common view was that Jesus was fully God.

Constantine did not create a new form of Christianity, he basically ratified the most common existing form.

He had the power to shape Christianity to fit with his Sun worship.

This sentence has literally zero connection to the quote you just provided or the ones that came after it.

At the above mentioned Council of Nicea, he defined how Jesus pbuh was divine by making him of the same substance as God the Father:

Legend has it, "A statement was read (perhaps written by emperor) welcoming the bishops and rejoicing that the empire had come to peace. Now it was the intention of the emperor that the Church of the Lord be filled with peace. Rufinus records that Constantine had an attendant bring in an armful of scrolls and letters sent to him from all over the empire. It was announced that these communications were letters of accusations and complaints sent by bishops against other bishops. Constantine then let the bishops know that he had not read any of them and instructed his attendant to burn them on the altar, saying that he wanted all grievances settled during their council."

This is pretty clear he was judge and jury here, and demanded peace.

Constantine did introduce, argued for and eventually insisted that the term homoousias be used in a creedal formula from the Council. From that day forth it would be the Universal position of the Catholic Church.

So again, "though the emperor was filled with great optimism, many bishops were not as thrilled. A novice in the faith had pushed for a creed that had contained a key non-scriptural term and had not been well thought out."

I've no idea where you got 'Sun God' from this. Genuinely puzzling.

With Christianity it was changed from Saturday as laid down by God to Sun worship day, and I've shown the who and when: Emperor Constantine who in 321 A.D. decreed:

"On the venerable Day of the SUN let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed."

The significance of Sundays to Christians predates Constantine by centuries. Most Christians were not Emperors with the power to actually make regulations.

Does this make sense?

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

If you look further you can find your man Justin Martyr discussing the Sunday tradition itself nearly 200 years before Constantine

 

[Muslim-UK]

Can you cite sources you refer to please?

The Council of Nicea 325 AD | Constantine calls 220 Bishops for the Christian Nicean Council, Nicene Creed, Charles Odahl - Christian Empire, the trinity, divinity of Jesus, New Testament Canon, Canons of Council of Nicea, Athanasius of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesaria church history, Lactantius, Nicean Council 325, RA Baker, Al Baker, Alan Baker

Unfortunately you have completely misunderstood the text you quoted (especially the bolded parts) and what happened at Nicaea.

He was seeking a resolution to one of the key Christological disputes of the day to establish a unifying orthodoxy. These issues predate Nicaea by decades and the Deification of Christ predates it by close to 3 Centuries.

Arianism was controversial because it was not orthodox, i.e. the most common view was that Jesus was fully God.

Constantine did not create a new form of Christianity, he basically ratified the most common existing form.

He defined how Jesus pbuh was divine in the eyes of Christians, god from God, of the same substance. I haven't misunderstood if you read my post carefully. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my choice of words.

This sentence has literally zero connection to the quote you just provided or the ones that came after it.

Constantine worshipped the Sun, he wanted the divine son of God to become the very essence of the Sun.

I've no idea where you got 'Sun God' from this. Genuinely puzzling.

Constantine's beliefs.

The significance of Sundays to Christians predates Constantine by centuries. Most Christians were not Emperors with the power to actually make regulations.

Does this make sense?

These were likely followers of Paul meeting on Sundays. The early followers of Jesus pbuh prayed in the Temple and kept Torah including keeping the Sabbath.

If you look further you can find your man Justin Martyr discussing the Sunday tradition itself nearly 200 years before Constantine

Meeting on Sundays has nothing to do with changing the Sabbath. Constantine changed the Sabbath to 'Sun'day.

You're not Christian, but if you were should you follow God and Jesus pbuh or Constantine?

 

[Augustus]

The Council of Nicea 325 AD | Constantine calls 220 Bishops for the Christian Nicean Council, Nicene Creed, Charles Odahl - Christian Empire, the trinity, divinity of Jesus, New Testament Canon, Canons of Council of Nicea, Athanasius of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesaria church history, Lactantius, Nicean Council 325, RA Baker, Al Baker, Alan Baker

If you had read more of it...

It is clear in retrospect that Constantine was more concerned with attaining peace and unity in the Church than he was with theology or doctrine. Three men who had been excommunicated in a previous smaller council, including Eusebius of Caesarea, were readmitted with little debate. These men had been disciplined for their views on the relationship of Jesus to the Father - the same issue which had driven Constantine to call the Council of Nicea to decide what to do with the views of Arius. Eusebius was allowed to read a simple baptismal formula for his defense which Constantine urged the bishops to accept without debate.

Constantine worshipped the Sun, he wanted the divine son of God to become the very essence of the Sun.

Even if that were true, it would still have nothing to do with Nicaea which was a dispute between Christian Bishops.

These were likely followers of Paul meeting on Sundays. The early followers of Jesus pbuh prayed in the Temple and kept Torah including keeping the Sabbath.

Wonderful, but nothing to do with Constantine and his Sun God.

Meeting on Sundays has nothing to do with changing the Sabbath. Constantine changed the Sabbath to 'Sun'day.

No he didn't. He simply promoted it as a holiday in the Roman Empire. You just acknowledged the tradition above and linked it to Paul.

You're not Christian, but if you were should you follow God and Jesus pbuh or Constantine?

Why would you be following Constantine by holding to a tradition that predates him by centuries?

The person who made Christmas day an official holiday, or New Years Day or whatever did not invent Christmas or New Year. They just created a regulation regarding an existing tradition.

Are you saying that most Christians were holding the Jewish sabbath until Constantine ordered them to change to Sunday because of his Sun God?

 

[Muslim-UK]

If you had read more of it...

It is clear in retrospect that Constantine was more concerned with attaining peace and unity in the Church than he was with theology or doctrine. Three men who had been excommunicated in a previous smaller council, including Eusebius of Caesarea, were readmitted with little debate. These men had been disciplined for their views on the relationship of Jesus to the Father - the same issue which had driven Constantine to call the Council of Nicea to decide what to do with the views of Arius. Eusebius was allowed to read a simple baptismal formula for his defense which Constantine urged the bishops to accept without debate.

And you would have read:

"Though the emperor was filled with great optimism, many bishops were not as thrilled. A novice in the faith had pushed for a creed that had contained a key non-scriptural term and had not been well thought-out. It was also clear that the Church now was under a certain amount of governmental control. Where bishops had been excommunicated, the emperor had maneurvered to reverse those decisions, as with Eusebius. And now an excommunicated bishop could be exiled by the government. Mostly, however, bishops were thankful that their time of deadly persecution had come to an end. The theological issues addressed at Nicea were not over. In fact, even the situation with Arius would continue for another 60 years."[/quote]The Bishops were dead right. theologically the Trinity has been Christianity's biggest blunder.

Even if that were true, it would still have nothing to do with Nicaea which was a dispute between Christian Bishops.

Constantine went with a simplistic theology that was previously put forward, it was deeply flawed, but what did it matter to a Sun worshipper? Jesus pbuh now 'officially' becomes the very essence of God.

Wonderful, but nothing to do with Constantine and his Sun God.

Only meeting on Sundays now became the day of the Sabbath.

No he didn't. He simply promoted it as a holiday in the Roman Empire. You just acknowledged the tradition above and linked it to Paul.

Constantine's weekly day of Sun veneration.

Why would you be following Constantine by holding to a tradition that predates him by centuries?

Neither Jesus pbuh or God changed the day of the Jewish Sabbath.

Are you saying that most Christians were holding the Jewish sabbath until Constantine ordered them to change to Sunday because of his Sun God?

The Jewish followers of Jesus pbuh, like the Ebionites kept the Sabbath. They were still around until the 7th Century when they reverted to Islam en masse. Pauline Christians on the other hand didn't keep Torah, so would have been unaffected by Constantine's Edict.

We can go back and forth on certain details, but I believe I've shown what I set out to do in my OP and enjoyed our exchange.

 

[Augustus]

"Though the emperor was filled with great optimism, many bishops were not as thrilled. A novice in the faith had pushed for a creed that had contained a key non-scriptural term and had not been well thought-out.

I'm not sure you understand what that is referring to. It makes no sense whatsoever in the context of your argument. Read the whole site you are citing if you won't take my word for it. You are seeing things which aren't there out of your strong bias and misunderstanding of the issue based on conspiracy theories.

The Nicene Creed was an attempt to create a 'catch all' statement that differentiated 'acceptable' Christianity from heretical Christianity, Manicheanism, Neoplatonism, etc.

It was broad so as to unify as many Churches as possible, which obviously led to some disappointment as many Bishops wanted the creed to be more exclusive in their favour.

Constantine wanted a unified religion as schisms were not good for ruling, he didn't want to impose some kind of new Sun God heresy as this would create instability. He did nothing innovative, everything under discussion predated his rule "It must be remembered that homoousias had been used some 70 years prior by Dionysius of Alexandria in his trinitarian debate against Dionysius of Rome. It was NOT a new term."

If you read your own source it confirms what I have been saying "Constantine thought a universal creed would help being unity. THAT was simplistic thinking. Constantine was certainly flawed and one of his flaws was an overly simplistic way of viewing doctrine and the possibility of bringing complete unity to the Church."

We can go back and forth on certain details, but I believe I've shown what I set out to do in my OP and enjoyed our exchange.

Thanks for the discussion

You really have misunderstood Nicaea though. Your view isn't even supported in the sources you are using yourself.

 

[qaz]

what you call "paganism" is actually the inner treasure of all religions.

this is why schopenhauer - like any other reasonable man - deemed the koran as a wretched and valueless little book.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I'm not sure you understand what that is referring to. It makes no sense whatsoever in the context of your argument. Read the whole site you are citing if you won't take my word for it. You are seeing things which aren't there out of your strong bias and misunderstanding of the issue based on conspiracy theories.

in post no 96 you said, "Constantine did not have the power to simply create a religion at will and impose it top down throughout a vast empire. This is what you miss about the ancient world. Christianity grew from the ground up.

Just like modern conspiracy theories people overestimate the degree to which things are controlled by shadowy powers working behind the scenes to pervert truth and justice."

The point I've been making is showing Constantine had great power and influence over the Bishops. His power decided the disputes between the various groups. He decided exactly what it meant for Jesus pbuh to be divine. God from God, the minority view. I'm not saying he came up with the idea, we know from Church History it was previously discussed amongst the various groups. Constantine made it the Catholic Church Doctrine.

Constantine was a Pagan, so endorsing 2 gods in 1 made no difference to him. The Holy Spirit would join the union later in the same Century.

The Nicene Creed was an attempt to create a 'catch all' statement that differentiated 'acceptable' Christianity from heretical Christianity, Manicheanism, Neoplatonism, etc.

This is clear from the link.

It was broad so as to unify as many Churches as possible, which obviously led to some disappointment as many Bishops wanted the creed to be more exclusive in their favour.

Yes

Constantine wanted a unified religion as schisms were not good for ruling, he didn't want to impose some kind of new Sun God heresy as this would create instability. He did nothing innovative, everything under discussion predated his rule "It must be remembered that homoousias had been used some 70 years prior by Dionysius of Alexandria in his trinitarian debate against Dionysius of Rome. It was NOT a new term."

This is the flawed doctrine Constantine pushed through, as I already pointed out.

If you read your own source it confirms what I have been saying "Constantine thought a universal creed would help being unity. THAT was simplistic thinking. Constantine was certainly flawed and one of his flaws was an overly simplistic way of viewing doctrine and the possibility of bringing complete unity to the Church."

His flaw was pushing through homoousias. Remember the Bishops were moaning it was non scriptural.

Today Christians say it is found in the NT because Jesus pbuh said, 'The Father and I are one.' >> One being, but this is incorrect when you look at the context, they are one in 'purpose'. Thank Constantine and the minority Bishops.

Oh btw did you catch what Constantine said from that link about Easter?

The canon from Nicea, pushed by Constantine, made it forbidden to "celebrate with the Jews," pointing to the undercurrent of anti-Jewish sentiment we have seen in earlier centuries.

His intention behind the earlier passing of the Sunday edict in 321 shows it was to break from Jewish traditions.

You really have misunderstood Nicaea though. Your view isn't even supported in the sources you are using yourself.

I hope I've cleared up any misunderstandings.

 

[Kenny]

I've looked at what God Commanded:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I recall Prophet Jesus pbuh saying:

Matthew 5:
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Yes. But did you forget everything else while you read those scriptures?

Things like;

Matt 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Rom 10: 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

But even more important... the Law was from Moses and I am a child of Abraham before Moses and the Law ever existed. Not only that, but Jesus instituted a New Covenant based on different promises and that was different from the covenant of Moses :

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (notice there is a difference)
Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

And the Sabbath became a lifestyle and not a day:

Heb 4: 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

But you NEVER answered the question as to why Christianity started worshiping on Sunday before Constantine was even present.

 

[Desert Snake]

The Council of Nicea 325 AD | Constantine calls 220 Bishops for the Christian Nicean Council, Nicene Creed, Charles Odahl - Christian Empire, the trinity, divinity of Jesus, New Testament Canon, Canons of Council of Nicea, Athanasius of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesaria church history, Lactantius, Nicean Council 325, RA Baker, Al Baker, Alan Baker

He defined how Jesus pbuh was divine in the eyes of Christians, god from God, of the same substance. I haven't misunderstood if you read my post carefully. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my choice of words.

Constantine worshipped the Sun, he wanted the divine son of God to become the very essence of the Sun.

Constantine's beliefs.

These were likely followers of Paul meeting on Sundays. The early followers of Jesus pbuh prayed in the Temple and kept Torah including keeping the Sabbath.

Meeting on Sundays has nothing to do with changing the Sabbath. Constantine changed the Sabbath to 'Sun'day.

You're not Christian, but if you were should you follow God and Jesus pbuh or Constantine?

The wondrous Constantine adopted the traditional beliefs of "christians", after conversion from paganism.

The sabbath/shabbat is arbitrary to the western calendar, and is 'a seventh day', not Saturns day, which is what saturday is.

Do you worship Saturn?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Yes. But did you forget everything else while you read those scriptures?

Things like;

Matt 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Rom 10: 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

I asked to see what Prophet Jesus pbuh or God had to say. Mat and Mark make no mention of changing the day. What I see in those verses is not dedicating the whole day of the Sabbath to worship. A bit like Friday prayers for Muslims, we close business, attend the sermon, pray and then return to work or family.

But even more important... the Law was from Moses and I am a child of Abraham before Moses and the Law ever existed. Not only that, but Jesus instituted a New Covenant based on different promises and that was different from the covenant of Moses :

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (notice there is a difference)

Jesus pbuh made clear the Torah was to be followed, that would include the Sabbath.

Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Paul can't over rule Matthew 5:17-19

But you NEVER answered the question as to why Christianity started worshiping on Sunday before Constantine was even present.

James and the Ebionites observed the Sabbath. They were true to Jesus pbuh and God. If people worshipped on Sundays, then it was of their own whim, nothing to do with God.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes. But did you forget everything else while you read those scriptures?

Things like;

Matt 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Rom 10: 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

But even more important... the Law was from Moses and I am a child of Abraham before Moses and the Law ever existed. Not only that, but Jesus instituted a New Covenant based on different promises and that was different from the covenant of Moses :

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (notice there is a difference)
Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

And the Sabbath became a lifestyle and not a day:

Heb 4: 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

But you NEVER answered the question as to why Christianity started worshiping on Sunday before Constantine was even present.

Noting that 'Lord', is Adonai, Jehovah,...the correct day, for this adherence,

 

[Desert Snake]

I asked to see what Prophet Jesus pbuh or God had to say. Mat and Mark make no mention of changing the day. What I see in those verses is not dedicating the whole day of the Sabbath to worship. A bit like Friday prayers for Muslims, we close business, attend the sermon, pray and then return to work or family.


Jesus pbuh made clear the Torah was to be followed, that would include the Sabbath.

Paul can't over rule Matthew 5:17-19


James and the Ebionites observed the Sabbath. They were true to Jesus pbuh and God. If people worshipped on Sundays, then it was of their own whim, nothing to do with God.

The torah is in Jesus Judaic observance; . The ot is not separate from the nt

 

[Kenny]

I asked to see what Prophet Jesus pbuh or God had to say. Mat and Mark make no mention of changing the day. What I see in those verses is not dedicating the whole day of the Sabbath to worship. A bit like Friday prayers for Muslims, we close business, attend the sermon, pray and then return to work or family.

What "you" see and what happened are two different things and since they were closest to Jesus and the Apostles, they would be better interpreters than you

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

1 Cor 6:2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

The Lord's day is the first day for Believers.

Psalms: Ps 118:22-26 actually prophecies the first day of the week!

I understand YOUR viewpoint but it is clear by these points that it was happening WAY before Constantine which was my point (whether you agree or not)

Jesus pbuh made clear the Torah was to be followed, that would include the Sabbath.

That would be true for the Jews for the Mosaic Law.

BUT, as I already pointing out to you, Christians come from Abraham before the Law ever existed. (you can ignore this truth if you so choose.

Paul can't over rule Matthew 5:17-19

Apparently the Apostles who were instructed by Jesus thought differently:

Acts 15:
24 “We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but we did not send them!
25 So we decided, having come to complete agreement, to send you official representatives, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3: 15 And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—

James and the Ebionites observed the Sabbath. They were true to Jesus pbuh and God. If people worshipped on Sundays, then it was of their own whim, nothing to do with God.

I never said you couldn't worship God on the Sabbath. But they worshipped God on Sunday too. As a matter of fact, you just go ahead and worship God on the Sabbath. I prefer worshipping Him on Sunday and Monday and Tuesday and through the rest of the week because...

Jesus has fulfilled the Sabbath (rest) for me and I have ceased trying to approach God through works including your Five Pillars because grace and truth are now the rule of love.

 

[RedDragon94]

Or keep studying and seek out who the Prophet to come after him was. Recall Jesus pbuh said,

12 “I have yet many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.13 But when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own authority. But He will speak whatever He hears, and He will tell you things that are to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will receive from Me and will declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is Mine. Therefore I said that He will take what is Mine and will declare it to you. John 16:12-15

John 16:8-9 says that when the Spirit of Truth comes he will convict the world of sin, the sin being that the world does not believe in him.

Who do you believe Jesus is?