Pagan influence on Christianity

[RedDragon94]

higher Christology is really only found in John

Matthew 3:16-17 says the Spirit of God came upon Jesus immediately after his baptism and a voice from heaven identified him as the Son of God.

 

[Augustus]

in post no 96 you said, "Constantine did not have the power to simply create a religion at will and impose it top down throughout a vast empire. This is what you miss about the ancient world. Christianity grew from the ground up.

Just like modern conspiracy theories people overestimate the degree to which things are controlled by shadowy powers working behind the scenes to pervert truth and justice."

He produced a compromise that reflected the views of the majority and even this didn't solve the problem.

Arianism was still a hot issue for another 100 years, and Constantine allowed many of the dissenters to return from exile (including Arius himself).

You were arguing he lobbed a Sun God into Christianity and told everyone else to suck it up despite their protests.

The point I've been making is showing Constantine had great power and influence over the Bishops. His power decided the disputes between the various groups. He decided exactly what it meant for Jesus pbuh to be divine. God from God, the minority view.

It really wasn't the minority view. It didn't even remotely solve the problem.

When someone rubber stamps the majority view, you give him far too much credit for what happened after.

The fact that he couldn't solve the problem despite the overwhelming majority accepting it shows you the problems you would have trying to force a flagrant Sun God heresy on the people from the top down.

Yes, he had some ability to influence the future direction of Christianity as all the caliphs did re Islam. Had he sided with Arius though, it is far from guaranteed that Arianism would have become the dominant form of Christianity throughout the Empire.

It took 400 years for the 'Roman' ME to become majority Muslim despite the incentives to do so (conversion outside of marriage must have been remarkably rare for the demographics to change this slowly). People don't just snap into line with their rulers when their whims change.

His flaw was pushing through homoousias. Remember the Bishops were moaning it was non scriptural.

Where does the sun god come from though?

Your argument appears to be:

1. Despite it being compatible with the majority of their views and broadly agreeing with it, some bishops were moaning about the precise wording of a text designed to be accommodating to as many of them as possible (which usually happens with compromises).
2. Therefore it was about Constantine forcing a Sun God into faith against the wills of Christendom.

These same bishops were attacking Arius for '2 natures' polytheism as his was not seen as the 'monotheist position', quite the opposite.

Homoousias has nothing to do with paganism or sun gods, just how to solve a centuries old debate within the Christian community. It was a philosophical discussion, you'd be better served focussing on Greek philosophical reasoning around substance rather than tilting at sun gods.

Constantine was a Pagan, so endorsing 2 gods in 1 made no difference to him. The Holy Spirit would join the union later in the same Century.

He possibly started out with a more traditional Roman outlook on a diversity of Gods, but he was clearly a more orthodox Christian later in his life.

The Bishops were Christians are you saying the just rolled over and said 'have your sun god if you like, we'll rubber stamp it despite the fact we hate it and don't agree with it?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

My use of pagan is the influence and corruption of religion by the influence of pagan beliefs, ie polytheism, blood sacrifice (not practiced by all pagan nor Native religions), and inherited guilt as in Original Sin and the Fall.

Where do you get the notion that these ideas are Pagan?

 

[shunyadragon]

Where do you get the notion that these ideas are Pagan?

A primary source is Greek beliefs in inherited guilt and accursed families. Paul was Hellenist Jew and favored Greek philosophy. Augustine another decidedly Hellenist Christian greatly reinforced the concept of inherited guilt.

From: Guilt by Descent Moral Inheritance and Decision Making in Greek Tragedy - Oxford Scholarship

Guilt by Descent: Moral Inheritance and Decision Making in Greek Tragedy
N. J. Sewell-Rutter

ABSTRACT

Blighted and accursed families are an inescapable feature of Greek tragedy, and many scholars have treated the questions of inherited guilt, curses, and divine causation. This book gives these familiar issues a fresh appraisal, arguing that tragedy is a medium that fuses the conceptual with the provoking and exciting of emotion, neither of which can be ignored if the texts are to be fully understood. It pays particular attention to Aeschylus' Seven against Thebes and the Phoenician Women of Euripides, both of which dramatize the sorrows of the later generations of the House of Oedipus, but in very different, and perhaps complementary, ways. All Greek quotations are translated.

 

[Muffled]

This thread is for the Christian Trinitarians.

Elsewhere I wrote,

I think if the Messiah the Jews were expecting was going to be God Himself, then He would have told his chosen people. This whole notion of worshippin g men as Gods comes from Greco-Roman World. They simply hijacked the message of Jesus pbuh, taking the title 'son of God' and replaced their own 'Sun of God' with it. We know this because amongst other things, Emperor Constantine in 321 A.D. decreed “the day of the sun” as a day of rest. He took the Jewish Sabbath and replaced it with Sun 'worship' Day.

We are to believe Palestine was under a hostile invading force that crushed any dissent, and Jesus pbuh was fine with that, telling his followers,

Mark 12:17 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Did Jesus pbuh say that or is it a later insertion?

Either way, sorry but it makes no sense worshipping a man who prayed to God, asked God why he had been forsaken, and told the people he was going to his God and their God. As page after page in this thread has shown, higher Christology is really only found in John and even there you find passages showing Jesus pbuh was far from divine. If you sincerely love the God of Abraham pbuh, then you should follow the Torah as Jesus pbuh commanded. Or keep studying and seek out who the Prophet to come after him was. Recall Jesus pbuh said,

12 “I have yet many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.13 But when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own authority. But He will speak whatever He hears, and He will tell you things that are to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will receive from Me and will declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is Mine. Therefore I said that He will take what is Mine and will declare it to you. John 16:12-15

I believe He did.

I believe that is not what we do and there is no indication in the NT that anyone thought that was the case.

I believe that is pure fantasy.

What is your point? The majority of Christians have Sunday as their day of rest so all Constantine is trying to do is conventionalize the majority view.

I believe it makes a lot more sense than taking up arms to fight. I can fault Ali for trading in Allah for Ares the god of war.
"As well as being the standard-bearer in those battles, Ali led parties of warriors on raids into enemy lands." Wikipedia.

I believe it makes perfect sense when that person is God.

I do not believe that is so. I believe John is where one finds most of the evidence that Jesus is God.

I believe this would be a step backward for a Christian.

 

[Muffled]

What people call "Christianity" is mostly based on pagan ideas. True Christians believe the teachings of Christ. They are very few and hard to find. Definitely not in the big churches that falsely use the name "Christian".

I don't recall anything pagan about Christianity . I think you are just huffing to make your own view seem more important.

 

[Muffled]

All religions have paganism in it unless they are completely made up this year 2017. Paganism just means native religions of the land. All religions have some paganisms because all religions are or have been influenced by the religions/culture of the original land that religion came from.

If there were no Paganism in Bahai, Christianity, Judaism, um, whatever, then what would your religions be founded on? If it's not from traditions (beliefs/practices handed down-which are native to the land/pagan), what is your religion based on?

You guys act as if paganism is a bad word.

I believe our religions (Abrahamic) are based on what God says which has nothing to do with place usually, although God did give Palestine to Abraham and his descendants.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Nothing pagan about Christianity? Pagans had a trinity. Pagans had a holiday in the Spring called Ishtar where they decorated eggs. Pagans decorated trees in the middle of winter. Pagans worshipped a mother and child. The Bible speciffically says not to do things that pagans do.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

A primary source is Greek beliefs in inherited guilt and accursed families.

No, not really. I'm no Hellenist, but this has never been brought up by any of them in either casual discussion or their rituals and worship. Your cited evidence of this is the guesswork and interpretation of scholars for their plays.

Pagans had a holiday in the Spring called Ishtar where they decorated eggs.

Absolutely not. Ishtar is a Sumerian goddess of many things, none of which are the spring. Ostara is a Germanic festival welcoming the coming of the spring - typically observed on March 21st, but traditionally on the dawn of the Spring Equinox. From it's High German word (Ēostre) is where we get the name for Easter, not the goddess Ishtar--who's name is not pronounced "easter" but "EESH-taar".

Pagans decorated trees in the middle of winter.

Probably not. The Norse would burn a large log in the town square and the great hall (compare to the mayor's house) on Yule, and perhaps decorate the Hall, but the tree decorations that we do today is a modern thing most likely started in the 1800's.

Pagans worshipped a mother and child.

Uh, which ones did you have in mind specifically? Given that we have multiple gods with parentages, there's bound to be several mothers and children in there.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I have no problemwith pagan traditions. But people who claim to be Christian should not be following them. It just shows how much of "christianity" is really pagan in origin. Which the "christians" will strongly deny.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I don't doubt that christianity co-opted many Pagan elements. I know several of them. I was only clarifying a few that you gave out, as they're unfortunate misinformation that has been made popular through Facebook "infomemes".

 

[Nakosis]

Pagan influence in Islam

" Muhammad then sanctioned the pagan rituals concerning the Kaba, i.e. kissing the black stone, touching the Kaba, circling the structure, running between the two hills, etc. Later, Umar said to the black stone "I know that you are a stone, that neither helps nor hurts, and if the messenger of god had not kissed you, I would not kiss you". (Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 2, #667). But then he kissed the stone. Like Umar, many other Muslims follow the prophet in their practice of veneration of a pagan idol."

The Pagan Religious Sources of Islam

As other posters mentioned there's pagan influence in all religions. In fact it would seem paganism is the origin of the Abrahamic beliefs. The Hebrew raised their own tribal pagan deity above all others. The Abrahamic religions are a corruption of Paganism.

The Muslims, Christians following in the footsteps of the Hebrew forcing their own version of paganism onto those they conquered. Maybe you should discover your own pagan roots and get back to your true religion.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Pagan influence in Islam

" Muhammad then sanctioned the pagan rituals concerning the Kaba, i.e. kissing the black stone, touching the Kaba, circling the structure, running between the two hills, etc. Later, Umar said to the black stone "I know that you are a stone, that neither helps nor hurts, and if the messenger of god had not kissed you, I would not kiss you". (Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 2, #667). But then he kissed the stone. Like Umar, many other Muslims follow the prophet in their practice of veneration of a pagan idol."

The Stone is mentioned in the Torah:

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God: “Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; he that believeth shall not make haste.

As other posters mentioned there's Pagan influence in all religions. In fact it would seem Paganism is the origin of the Abrahamic beliefs. The Hebrew raised their own tribal pagan deity above all others. The Abrahamic religions are a corruption of Paganism.

The Muslims, Christians following in the footsteps of the Hebrew forcing their own version of paganism onto those they conquered. Maybe you should discover your own pagan roots and get back to your true religion.

The rites of the Hajj are to retrace the steps of those who came before us, specifically Abraham pbuh, Hagar, Ishmael pbut and Muhammad pbuh, just as they struggled and made special prayers, so we too do the same. If you think this paganism, then yes I have no problem with this. All the Prophets visited Mecca and made similar pilgrimages:

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

In fact it would seem Paganism is the origin of the Abrahamic beliefs.

Polytheism, certainly, but not Paganism.

 

[Nakosis]

Polytheism, certainly, but not Paganism.

The adoption of paganus by the Latin Christians as an all-embracing, pejorative term for polytheists represents an unforeseen and singularly long-lasting victory, within a religious group, of a word of Latin slang originally devoid of religious meaning. The evolution occurred only in the Latin west, and in connection with the Latin church. Elsewhere, "Hellene" or "gentile" (ethnikos) remained the word for pagan; and paganos continued as a purely secular term, with overtones of the inferior and the commonplace.

— Peter Brown, Late Antiquity, 1999

Probably shouldn't have capitalized. In fact I can fix that...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe our religions (Abrahamic) are based on what God says which has nothing to do with place usually, although God did give Palestine to Abraham and his descendants.

Christianity picked up from a lot of practices in, well, Jeruselum etc. They have roman teachings such as christ being god in, well, roman catholicism. You have a lot of things they probably picked up in acts as they went to different lands spreading gods word.

History takes off history takes off history.

Instead of pagan, we can call it native traditions. The thought is the same. Pre-abrahamic religions native to X land (unhabitants from that land) they are from.

Like Lukumi in Africa would be considered pagan "in comparison to" Santeria which catholicism, because of the mix, took dominance over. However, if there was a religion that pre existed lukumi, that would be pagan.

Christianity isnt old. All protestant teachings are taking from what the church already put together. Its kind of like making a apple and peach pie. Someone else takes the apples out and then says the "new" pie is the original. I mean, in one perspective, I guess its new. But if its like JW, LDS, Bahai, whatever that adds to or combines ingredients, its just a pie extracted from the original. The original would be pagan. The new pie modern.

If you get the analogy.

Its a historical thing nothing spiritual.

 

[Nakosis]

The Stone is mentioned in the Torah:

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God: “Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; he that believeth shall not make haste.

The rites of the Hajj are to retrace the steps of those who came before us, specifically Abraham pbuh, Hagar, Ishmael pbut and Muhammad pbuh, just as they struggled and made special prayers, so we too do the same. If you think this paganism, then yes I have no problem with this. All the Prophets visited Mecca and made similar pilgrimages:

Yes, that's kind of the point. pagan(polytheistic) influence on the original Hebrew belief.

How the Jews invented God, and made him great

 

[Muslim-UK]

Yes, that's kind of the point. pagan(polytheistic) influence on the original Hebrew belief.

I don't see how building a house for worship, or placing a special cornerstone to mark a particular corner is considered paganism?

The stone was sent down from Heaven to show where to build the house.

If God spoke to you directly today and told you to build a house of worship, would it be acceptable in your mind for people to accuse you of following Pagan practices?

How the Jews invented God, and made him great

Nomadic Arabs gave the Jews Yahweh.

"In fact, it seems that the ancient Israelites weren't even the first to worship Yhwh – they seem to have adopted Him from a mysterious, unknown tribe that lived somewhere in the deserts of the southern Levant and Arabia."

 

[Nakosis]

I don't see how building a house for worship, or placing a special cornerstone to mark a particular corner is considered paganism?

The stone was sent down from Heaven to show where to build the house.

If God spoke to you directly today and told you to build a house of worship, would it be acceptable in your mind for people to accuse you of following Pagan practices?

Depends on which God. I've no doubt that folks believe God was talking to them. That doesn't mean that God was actually talking to them.

Nomadic Arabs gave the Jews Yahweh.

"In fact, it seems that the ancient Israelites weren't even the first to worship Yhwh – they seem to have adopted Him from a mysterious, unknown tribe that lived somewhere in the deserts of the southern Levant and Arabia."

I suppose we have to give credit to the Arab world for monotheism. Enforcement of a single deistic belief. I don't know if that is a good thing or bad considering the millions who have died for the sake of monotheism.

Why does your God have to be everybody's God? Why not let folks who want to worship God, worship God according to their own beliefs as long as that worship isn't causing you personal harm?

I admire the folks in India. They manage to worship a multitude of Gods and generally manage to do so without stepping on each others toes.

Jews mostly keep to themselves now. Some Christians are going that way. Why allow ancient tribal monotheism control your belief.

If there is a God, maybe God accepts all worship, all prayers, all folks of good intent. These ancient prophets had an agenda of unifying the tribes under one authority. Consider the hatred, war and destruction caused by this. Do you really think this is what a benevolent God would want?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Why does your God have to be everybody's God? Why not let folks who want to worship God, worship God according to their own beliefs as long as that worship isn't causing you personal harm?

Jews and Christians lived amongst Muslims and continue to do so, free to worship the One true God as they see fit.

If there is a God, maybe God accepts all worship, all prayers, all folks of good intent. These ancient prophets had an agenda of unifying the tribes under one authority. Consider the hatred, war and destruction caused by this. Do you really think this is what a benevolent God would want?

Does God command war and destruction or is it people choosing not to obey God, that are causing the problems you mentioned?