If we are making Jews the supreme arbiters of their tradition, do you know what most Jews think about your version of their religion and how it violates their scriptures too?
It's not about making the Jews arbitrators. Is Christianity not based on the Torah? Yes it is, and does the Torah allow for men to be made partners unto God in worship?
No never.
Not at all because it didn't happen.
Yes it did and it's well documented:
Justin uses the Devil as a scapegoat, claiming they were, "distorted from the prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah":
And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, and call the place where those who believe in him are initiated a cave, do I not perceive here that the utterance of Daniel, that a stone without hands was cut out of a great mountain, has been imitated by them, and that they have attempted likewise to imitate the whole of Isaiah's words? (Roberts (1870), 2.186)
Justin does not maintain that the Mithraic mysteries were copied
from Christianity; his appeal to "Prophecies" purportedly written centuries before is a tacit admission that Roman Mithraism, with rites already developed and known by his time, preceded Christianity. Martyr's suggestion also implies that the Mithraists knew the Jewish scriptures, which is improbable, unless those who created Mithraic rituals were Jews.
CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 69-88 (Justin Martyr)
As regards the
Eucharist in specific, Justin says in his
First Apology Chapter 66
And this food is called among us Eucharistia, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body"; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood"; and gave it to them alone.
Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.
CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)
Clearly if the Devil did it, then these practices existed before Christianity. The same argument is used today by some to explain the Fossil Record.
Tertullian is another Church Father, who also tries to address Mithras worship and he writes in the second half of the 2nd Century.
We can come to him if you still insist Pagan Sun Worship has nothing to do with Christianity.
Constantine did not have the power to simply create a religion at will and impose it top down throughout a vast empire. This is what you miss about the ancient world. Christianity grew from the ground up.
Constantine had the power to decide who lived and who died. Was he not able to reward those loyal to him? Wasn't it the case many Bishops did not attend his Council of Nicea?
As a die hard Pagan, Constantine worshipped Mithras and Sol Invictus. Bishop Eusebius was his right hand man and commissioned 50 copies of the NT to be sent out across the Empire. Eusebius likened Constantine to God's representative on Earth :/
Of the Nicean Council, Church History records:
"Though the emperor was filled with great optimism,
many bishops were not as thrilled. A novice in the faith had pushed for a creed that had contained a key non-scriptural term and had not been well thought-out. It was also clear that the Church now was under a certain amount of governmental control. Where bishops had been excommunicated, the emperor had maneurvered to reverse those decisions, as with Eusebius. And now an excommunicated bishop could be exiled by the government. Mostly, however, bishops were thankful that their time of deadly persecution had come to an end. The theological issues addressed at Nicea were not over. In fact, even the situation with Arius would continue for another 60 years."
Those towing the Government's line, were rewarded with money, land, given positions of influence and power within the church.
Just like modern conspiracy theories people overestimate the degree to which things are controlled by shadowy powers working behind the scenes to pervert truth and justice.
Nothing shadowy at work here, it's all out in the open.
As the church Father himself says, the point is "And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of
God, was produced without sexual union, and that He,
Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven,
we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter."
Jesus pbuh is just Pagan worship of old repackaged by the Church.
In case you haven't noticed, there are plenty of non-Christians (like me) on this site who have studied these issues for themselves and decided that 'nasty Constantine' conspiracy theories are generally internet phenomena based on misrepresentations and historical illiteracy.
Yes of course, whatever you say.
Yes, there are generally notable splits in emerging religions.
What did the early Jewish followers of Jesus pbuh believe: The Ebionites along with other groups lived in close knit communities broadly headed by James, the brother of Jesus pbuh, they believed:
Jesus was a created human and not divine
Jesus was a teacher
Jesus was the expected Messiah
The Law of the Torah must be observed
Theirs was the earliest congregation of followers to Jesus, starting from around 30 AD
Not in any detail, only to dismiss Hadiths. The word for Friday in Arabic is Jumah, the very name of the chapter you quoted from:
O you who have believed, when [the adhan] is called for the prayer on the day of Jumu'ah [Friday], then proceed to the remembrance of Allah and leave trade. That is better for you, if you only knew.
No, I reject the idea that one can say 'it's in the hadiths' therefore it must have happened. This is not the same as rejecting all hadiths without question. The point was about accepting religious traditions as history.
Qur'an makes clear we have to follow the Prophet pbuh. Qur'an tells us to pray, the Prophet pbuh shows us how etc
Re Friday, I said it is unknown whether or not this was from the very beginnings of what later became Islam or if it was a (slightly) later introduction as other things now deemed 'orthodox' seem to have been.
I would imagine it is a pretty early development though.
Yes it's from the Qur'an as shown.
That's your view, others strongly disagree.
It's not what people think, it's what the Scriptures say.
I care little about the theological debates but find the history interesting
You come across as a Christian, hence your defending of its Pagan roots in the face of overwhelming evidence. Don't worry I'm sure even unbiased Scholars, have some kind of confirmation bias linked to the Religion they were born into
Dozens of books have been written by Western Historians on the links between Christianity and Paganism.
Religions of Rome (Vol. 1: A History; Vol. 2: A Sourcebook) by Mary Beard, John North, and Simon Price (Cambridge University Press, 1998)
Ancient Mystery Cults by Walter Burkert (Harvard University Press, 1987)
The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire: Mysteries of the Unconquered Sun by Roger Beck, (Oxford University Press, 2006)
The Roman Cult of Mithras by Manfred Clauss, translated by Richard Gordon (Edinburgh University Press, 2000)
The Cults of the Roman Empire by Robert Turcan, translated by Antonia Nevill (Blackwell Publishers)
Edward Gibbon,
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
The Rise of Christianity by Rodney Stark (Harper Collins, 1997)
Religious Rivalries in the Early Roman Empire and the Rise of Christianity by Leif E. Vaage (Wilfrid Laurier University Press, 2006)
Christianity: The Origins of a Pagan Religion Paperback – 27 Jul 2006 by Philippe Walter
Pagan Christianity Written by: Frank Viola
Christians and Pagans; The Conversion of Britain from Alban to Bede: Malcolm Lambert
Spiritual and Religious: The Gospel in an Age of Paganism Tom Wright
etc etc
