Paid Maternity Leave

[Wildswanderer]

It's been awhile since I was in the job market but can't you review the insurance policy for a job before you agree to take that job?
If it doesn't include paid maternity leave, don't take it if you are planning a family. Seems pretty simple.

 

[metis]

It's been awhile since I was in the job market but can't you review the insurance policy for a job before you agree to take that job?
If it doesn't include paid maternity leave, don't take it if you are planning a family. Seems pretty simple.

What's simpler yet is that maternity/paternity leave could be mandatory, or at least optional, for all.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It's been awhile since I was in the job market but can't you review the insurance policy for a job before you agree to take that job?
If it doesn't include paid maternity leave, don't take it if you are planning a family. Seems pretty simple.

If you desperately need a job and none offer paid maternity leave? Then what?
Doesn't sound so simple to me.

Why is health insurance tied to one's job anyway? So if you lose your job you lose your health insurance too? That seems backwards to people from country's with universal healthcare (which is basically every country outside the USA).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I’m not a pro-lifer, but I think the argument is something like this:

Abortion is bad because it’s murder—killing life.

So you keep the baby, but that doesn’t mean I have to help you. There’s consequences for your actions and YOU, not the state, need to figure out how to get on. If you legitimately need a hand up, we’ll help you, but don’t expect to be on the dole forever.

That's my take on it, too... and I think it's a hollow position. It only care about condemning abortion without any regard to how many abortions their actions actually prevent.

About the whole "it's on you not the state" thing, though... here (Canada), we have anti-choice groups that have no problem with handouts generally. We've also had a few issues come up recently (especially subsidized daycare and an extension of paid, job-protected parental leave) that would have a direct bearing on how many people choose parenthood over abortion. But still... crickets from the anti-choicers.

I mean, Ontario really dragged its feet signing onto the federal subsidized daycare plan, but I never heard a single anti-choicer calling for Doug Ford to hurry up and sign the deal for the sake of the "babies" that would be saved.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What's simpler yet is that maternity/paternity leave could be mandatory, or at least optional, for all.

A government mandate? Why does the government have to control everything? I'm for less government not more.

 

[SkepticThinker]

A government mandate? Why does the government have to control everything? I'm for less government not more.

So in one instance (abortion, bodily autonomy) you are pro-government control. But in another instance (providing paid maternal leave so new mothers can take care of and bond with the baby you forced them to have) you are anti-government control.
Is that right?

Do you see why that might be problematic?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The USA is one of the last countries on Earth that does not guarantee paid maternity leave for new moms. Given the financial strain that families can be put under to take time away from work to give birth and care for a newborn, and the fact that around the country states are making it illegal to terminate a pregnancy, this strikes me as a no-brainer. Why shouldn't we ensure that new moms are financially supported while caring for a new child?

I'm confident that every prolifer who cares so deeply about the right to life will join me in supporting this. Right?

What are you proposing? What are the details?

 

[Left Coast]

What are you proposing? What are the details?

Literally any guarantee for paid maternity leave when folks give birth, as seen in almost every other country on the planet. Details come after agreement on basics.

Here's some information for you:

Maternity Leave by Country 2022

Among 41 countries, only U.S. lacks paid parental leave

 

[Sand Dancer]

Why is health insurance tied to one's job anyway? So if you lose your job you lose your health insurance too? That seems backwards to people from country's with universal healthcare (which is basically every country outside the USA).

That definitely needs to change. It was given as a perk after WWII.

 

[Left Coast]

I’m not a pro-lifer, but I think the argument is something like this:

Abortion is bad because it’s murder—killing life.

So you keep the baby, but that doesn’t mean I have to help you. There’s consequences for your actions and YOU, not the state, need to figure out how to get on. If you legitimately need a hand up, we’ll help you, but don’t expect to be on the dole forever.

No one is suggesting eternal paid leave. All countries have a time limit on the benefit. Details are debatable. Currently in the US we guarantee nothing.

Secondly, if the state forces me to have a child against my will, you bet your *** it's morally obligated to help me. Anyone who suggests otherwise is honestly beyond any reasonable conversation IMO.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Literally any guarantee for paid maternity leave when folks give birth, as seen in almost every other country on the planet. Details come after agreement on basics.

Here's some information for you:

Maternity Leave by Country 2022

Among 41 countries, only U.S. lacks paid parental leave

I may agree on some form of paid maternity leave but I have some questions for you:

Who is paying for the leave? Government or the companies?
How do employers fill the responsibilities when the woman is gone? Temps, give others more responsibility?
Would you be ok with employers increasing insurance rates a little to pay for the leave?
What benefit do companies get from paid maternity leave?
Will all employees be covered or just full time employees? Contract or part time employees etc. be covered?

 

[Left Coast]

I may agree on some form of paid maternity leave

You may agree? So you definitely agree that you want people to be forced to have babies but you're not sure whether they should be guaranteed paid time away from their jobs to have the babies?

Do you understand why that's problematic, from either a moral or public policy standpoint?

Who is paying for the leave? Government or the companies?

I believe both arrangements exist, depending on the country. I'm agnostic as to which I prefer. Though if the state is forcing people to give birth, I tend to think they ought to also foot the bill for their policy choices.

How do employers fill the responsibilities when the woman is gone? Temps, give others more responsibility?

The same way they do now.

Would you be ok with employers increasing insurance rates a little to pay for the leave?

Employers don't increase insurance rates, insurance companies do. I prefer a single payer system personally.

They've figured out the financial details of this in every other developed nation on the planet without breaking the bank. Do you believe the logistics are insurmountable?

What benefit do companies get from paid maternity leave?

One could make an argument that more robust benefits packages are more attractive to employees, decrease turnover, improve morale, etc.

But there is a more fundamental question as to whether companies have an obligation to provide some benefits for the employees, or for society broadly, that don't add to their profit margins. I'm of the view they ought to be obligated to behave in ways that do not merely maximize profit.

Will all employees be covered or just full time employees? Contract or part time employees etc. be covered?

Again, this is a detail on which I think there can be some negotiation. Currently in the US we offer nothing. Zilch. Zero.

Should we provide more than zero?

 

[metis]

A government mandate? Why does the government have to control everything? I'm for less government not more.

I put the children first and foremost, not my "hard-earned money".

The Nordic countries have shown how well this works out, not only for the children but also the parents. And one of the driving forces for their decision to go in this direction was the teachings within the Lutheran Church whereas people are viewed as being more important than money. So, are they supposedly wrong?

 

[Wildswanderer]

No one is suggesting eternal paid leave. All countries have a time limit on the benefit. Details are debatable. Currently in the US we guarantee nothing.

Secondly, if the state forces me to have a child against my will, you bet your *** it's morally obligated to help me. Anyone who suggests otherwise is honestly beyond any reasonable conversation IMO.

No one is forcing you to have a child. What a strange statement. Did the government rape you?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Again, this is a detail on which I think there can be some negotiation. Currently in the US we offer nothing. Zilch. Zero.

I'm quite sure that's not the case with lots of insurance policies.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

You may agree? So you definitely agree that you want people to be forced to have babies but you're not sure whether they should be guaranteed paid time away from their jobs to have the babies?

Do you understand why that's problematic, from either a moral or public policy standpoint?

I may agree on your proposal, maybe not. I don't know what you are advocating. Details matter.

I believe both arrangements exist, depending on the country. I'm agnostic as to which I prefer. Though if the state is forcing people to give birth, I tend to think they ought to also foot the bill for their policy choices.

The same way they do now.

But not all employers offer it.

Employers don't increase insurance rates, insurance companies do. I prefer a single payer system personally.

They've figured out the financial details of this in every other developed nation on the planet without breaking the bank. Do you believe the logistics are insurmountable?

No, I just want top know what they are? If other countries have a system then what is it? If you don't know t hen you are advocating for something you don't really know about.

One could make an argument that more robust benefits packages are more attractive to employees, decrease turnover, improve morale, etc.

But there is a more fundamental question as to whether companies have an obligation to provide some benefits for the employees, or for society broadly, that don't add to their profit margins. I'm of the view they ought to be obligated to behave in ways that do not merely maximize profit.

And you are the one decided what those things are? Each company should decide heat moral obligations they have and employees can decide if they want to work for that company.

Again, this is a detail on which I think there can be some negotiation. Currently in the US we offer nothing. Zilch. Zero.

This is not true. We require 12 week unpaid leave. 40% of employers offer some form of paid maternity leave.

Should we provide more than zero?

Who is we? I think the US government (taxpayers) should provide some form of paid maternity leave and companies required to keep the employee as a full time employee during the leave time. Surely we can pay for it by eliminating pork spending.

 

[Left Coast]

No one is forcing you to have a child. What a strange statement. Did the government rape you?

The government is literally forcing people to carry their unwanted pregnancies to term, including people who were raped. Did you not know that?

 

[Left Coast]

I'm quite sure that's not the case with lots of insurance policies.

It should not be up to the whim of individual insurance companies to decide if they feel like offering that or not. Again, if you care so much about life, surely this is an obvious policy you should support for women giving birth?

 

[Left Coast]

But not all employers offer it.

I'm aware not all employers offer it. Ergo the proposal for it to be either required of them or provided by the government.

No, I just want top know what they are? If other countries have a system then what is it? If you don't know t hen you are advocating for something you don't really know about.

I already provided you to links that explain what mechanisms other countries use. If you concede that the logistics are not financially unworkable, then your resistance is based on what? The fundamental principle remains that if you force people to give birth because you just care so much about babies and life, then you ought to care about providing the means for mothers to be financially supported when they undergo that.

And you are the one decided what those things are?

Generally societies decide that, at various levels.

Each company should decide heat moral obligations they have and employees can decide if they want to work for that company.

That's the system we have now vis a vis paid maternity leave. So again, you're not in favor of guaranteed paid maternity leave? Despite the fact that you're in favor of forcing pregant folks to give birth?

This is not true. We require 12 week unpaid leave.

Yes unpaid. So what I said is true. We guarantee zero paid maternity leave, contra nearly every other country on the planet.

40% of employers offer some form of paid maternity leave.

Cool. Let's make it 100%, or have the government cover it. Right?

Who is we?

The United States. Very obviously.

I think the US government (taxpayers) should provide some form of paid maternity leave and companies required to keep the employee as a full time employee during the leave time. Surely we can pay for it by eliminating pork spending.

Okay so you do support guaranteed paid maternity leave. Awesome, thank you for conceding that prolifers ought to support this.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I already provided you to links that explain what mechanisms other countries use. If you concede that the logistics are not financially unworkable, then your resistance is based on what? The fundamental principle remains that if you force people to give birth because you just care so much about babies and life, then you ought to care about providing the means for mothers to be financially supported when they undergo that.

All I asked was how do we pay for it? How much will it cost? etc. Those are reasonable questions. Do you have any answers?

That's the system we have now vis a vis paid maternity leave. So again, you're not in favor of guaranteed paid maternity leave? Despite the fact that you're in favor of forcing pregant folks to give birth?

I never said this.

Yes unpaid. So what I said is true. We guarantee zero paid maternity leave, contra nearly every other country on the planet.

Why do you leave off that 40% of employers offer some sort of paid maternity leave?

Cool. Let's make it 100%, or have the government cover it. Right?

Yes, we are discussing how we should do that.

The United States. Very obviously.

No, not obviously. I wanted to know if you think the employer or taxpayers should pay for it.

Okay so you do support guaranteed paid maternity leave. Awesome, thank you for conceding that prolifers ought to support this.

All I conceded was that I am for some sort of paid maternity leave. Anyone else can decide for themselves. I don't speak for all pro lifers.