Parents Rights On Transgender Policy

[Soandso]

But that doesn't mean that the current solutions are good. I'd say "good goals, dubious solutions". Because the other aspect of this is that these solutions don't exist in their own isolated bubbles, they have impacts on the greater society.

Maybe you'd like to expand on what those impacts are, exactly? Maybe real world examples to compare and show how they happened, and why America would follow those footsteps? Or is this just a slippery slope fallacy

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The maths grade is on the school report, that is the usual way to let the parents know and it is not confidential.

In no school I've worked at would it have been recommended to wait until a school report to alert parents that their child is struggling.

To be fair, my training and majority of experience was in primary schooling.

All other things are not on the curriculum and don't need to be reported but can if there is an understanding between teachers and parents. Except when the pupil doesn't want it. Then their right to privacy overrules the deal between parents and teachers.

Simply not true, at least here.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I agree, and I would also add that I've observed a certain cultural trope in which it is generally believed that the very process of becoming a parent somehow magically imbues the parent with some kind of sage, great "wisdom," implying that only they know what is best for their children. This kind of mentality is what enables child abuse and forces children to live in a prison imposed by their parents until they're 18.

You could remove 'becoming a parent' and add in 'becoming a teacher', 'becoming a priest', etc.

 

[fantome profane]

The maths grade is on the school report, that is the usual way to let the parents know and it is not confidential.

All other things are not on the curriculum and don't need to be reported but can if there is an understanding between teachers and parents. Except when the pupil doesn't want it. Then their right to privacy overrules the deal between parents and teachers.

In no school I've worked at would it have been recommended to wait until a school report to alert parents that their child is struggling.

To be fair, my training and majority of experience was in primary schooling.


Simply not true, at least here.

My sister is a french teacher (grades 6-8) and she showed me the program she has to use to fill out report cards. The comments are pre-written and she just selects the ones she thinks fits. Things like "... is advancing well" or "... is struggling in this topic" or "... needs to speak up more in class" etc.

I don't remember them all, but I am absolutely certain "... is struggling with their gender identity" was not one of the choices.

 

[Alien826]

Despite all the slurs I receive, I think improving the individual's happiness is a fantastic goal.

But that doesn't mean that the current solutions are good. I'd say "good goals, dubious solutions". Because the other aspect of this is that these solutions don't exist in their own isolated bubbles, they have impacts on the greater society.

From what I've read here, I'm getting the feeling that what you want is what is actually happening. Those that claim to be "trans" are carefully checked to determine what is best for them. Doctors don't just accept what people claim. Surgery is very rarely done on minors, if at all.

 

[icehorse]

From what I've read here, I'm getting the feeling that what you want is what is actually happening. Those that claim to be "trans" are carefully checked to determine what is best for them. Doctors don't just accept what people claim. Surgery is very rarely done on minors, if at all.

It's hard to know how many constitute "rare". That said, it's far less rare / more common for drugs to be used, and the drugs come with nasty, expensive, lifelong side effects.

 

[Heyo]

Simply not true, at least here.

It should be.
Children are a class that still has to get it's rights recognised.
Non whites had their struggle for rights, women had their struggle for rights, gays had their struggle for rights, currently trans people are struggling. Children are still considered widely right-less.

But people are complaining about "parents rights".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But what if the issue for an individual isn't any sort of gender issue at all?

My point is that I believe the job of the therapist is to converse with a patient, and listen to them BEFORE categorizing the patient's problem (or lack thereof).

Good grief, Charlie Brown! That's a basic first step in all of healthcare. Physical health or mental health, the provider and patient have to talk abit about what's going on before the provider can proceed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just going to leave this here: Fox News' Tyrus promises to assault his children if they share their preferred pronouns

Not surprised to see that on Fox. For all the tough guy talk that wanker does I beylt he's the absolute first to cower during an emergency and over entitled in how he expects people to treat him.

 

[Stevicus]

You could remove 'becoming a parent' and add in 'becoming a teacher', 'becoming a priest', etc.

Yes, although becoming a teacher or priest involves actually studying about the profession they're entering, oftentimes taking years. Becoming a parent is more a matter of biology, at least at its core. My view is that if someone is already superstitious, violent, abusive, ignorant - then I don't see how the act of having kids would actually change that condition - at least not by itself.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Exactly? Nothing, of course. But we seem to tie ourselves in knots with transgender issues. The school is going to call me if my child is struggling with English, and ask me to read more to my child. But I am likely not a trained teacher (I mean...I am...but in general terms). They are likely to call me if there is a head injury, but I'm not a doctor. They are likely to call me if my child is being bullied, but I'm neither a psychologist, nor do they know what advice I am likely to give my child for dealing with bullying. If my child is purging after lunch, or tossing their lunch in the bin, they're likely to call me.

In all these cases, I am probably NOT a trained 'expert' in dealing with these situations. Neither, incidentally, are the teachers, apart from in the maths/English case, and even then it's highly variable.
Yet the school calls me.

Now the suggestion is that the school shouldn't call me if my child is suffering from gender dysmorphia, because...well...I'm not sure why. Because I might be a bad dude?

I think we tie ourselves in knots with transgender issues when we don't need to. A child going through transition needs support. Schools normally drag in parents to provide support to their kids. For everyone who has made comments about parents, and their capability, training, or safety in dealing with these type of issues....I was a teacher. I was an early 20s male, who cared deeply for the kids in his care, but was an early 20s male. I'm infinitely more capable of supporting a child in difficult situations now, and however deeply I cared for the kids I taught, I'm infintely more invested in my own daughters.

Yet many seem to think this is the one occasion where the parents should be excluded, because they're not experts, and they might mistreat the child.

I didn't see this post earlier. I can see your point based on your position as a responsible, loving father in Australia (which you clarified earlier was the country you were talking about), and I agree schools in a country as accepting of trans rights as Australia should inform parents when the child may be gender dysphoric or gender non-conforming.

However, do you think this should also apply to the US and other countries where many states/regions or people are very likely to not be so accepting and to not safely deal with such an issue? If you were a teacher and you knew a kid's parents were almost surely anti-trans and rejecting of the fact that gender dysphoria existed in the first place (and were therefore very likely to abuse the kid over having it), what would you do? I personally don't see any easy way to deal with that situation, whether the teacher told the parents or not.

I haven't seen any convincing answer to the above questions so far, and that's what keeps me from unconditionally supporting a policy where schools must inform parents about a child's identification with another gender in countries where acceptance of trans rights is either widely polarizing or downright unpopular.

 

[icehorse]

Good grief, Charlie Brown! That's a basic first step in all of healthcare. Physical health or mental health, the provider and patient have to talk abit about what's going on before the provider can proceed.

I would agree. So then why would a patient go to a "gender affirmation" session? Sounds like the diagnosis has been made before the patient has been seen?

 

[icehorse]

Maybe you'd like to expand on what those impacts are, exactly? Maybe real world examples to compare and show how they happened, and why America would follow those footsteps? Or is this just a slippery slope fallacy

LMGTFY?

 

[fantome profane]

I think we tie ourselves in knots with transgender issues when we don't need to.

This is what I am thinking too, yet reaching a different conclusion.

There are those who think the parents should also be informed if the child presents any signs of homosexuality? Do you think the teacher should be required to inform the parents in that case?

What if the student doesn't exhibit any signs of sexual attraction to either sex? Should the teachers be required to inform the parents? (assuming a child past puberty of course).

What if the student is going through a bad break up? That can be really hard on a child, especially the first time. Should the teachers required to inform the parents about the child suffering from a bad break up?


I just don't think the school needs to report on their students inner emotional life.

 

[fantome profane]

So then why would a patient go to a "gender affirmation" session?

I am really wondering what you think happens.

It is not mandatory for all students.

We don't have gender therapists running around the school kidnapping random children and forcing them to go to a "gender affirmation session".

Why does someone go to see a doctor? If you go to see a back specialist it is because you have back pain. If you go to see a heart specialist it is because you are concerned about your heart.

It starts with someone experience certain feelings and wanting to talk to someone about them.

Sounds like the diagnosis has been made before the patient has been seen?

Just because someone goes to a therapist does not mean a diagnosis has been made. If you have knee pain you go to a doctor to talk about your knee pain. That does not mean a diagnosis has already been made. This is no different.

 

[fantome profane]

LMGTFY?

Yes, please.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Sadly, I think advocates on both sides of this debate blur and obfuscate the details.

That doesn't directly answer the question. Many of the proposed bans on gender-affirming care in the US seem to make no distinction between surgical or irreversible interventions and non-surgical or reversible ones (e.g., therapy and social support). Do you support or oppose the bans as they are currently proposed and happening?

What do you think accounts for the huge spike in young people "identifying" as trans? For example, how big a factor (if any), do you think social contagion plays?

I think social and medical acceptance, greatly increased access to gender-affirming care (prior to the current wave of bans in the US, anyway), and awareness about the non-binary nature of gender are most likely the main reasons more people are openly identifying with another gender or not feeling too afraid to do so.

There's no rigorous evidence that "social contagion" is a factor, however, so I don't see a solid basis to confidently assume that it is a factor, let alone a big one. The issue is still being researched as we speak. For example:

Increased awareness may well be a factor. But most of the research in this field has been based on predominantly birth-registered males – not females.

The Cass report explained that relatively little was known about the causes of gender dysphoria in girls, or the outcomes for those who received treatment.

“At present, we have the least information for the largest group of patients – birth-registered females first presenting in early teen years,” it said.

“Since the rapid increase in this group began around 2015, they will not reach late 20s for another five-plus years, which would be the best time to assess longer-term wellbeing.”

The NHS review will help to shine some light on this issue – but it may be years before a clear picture emerges.

‘An explosion’: what is behind the rise in girls questioning their gender identity?

As the NHS reviews gender referrals, parents, clinicians and young people reveal the social, medical and emotional challenges they face

www.theguardian.com

No snark here: Can you define gender the way you're using it above? thanks!

I detailed that in post #11.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

My sister is a french teacher (grades 6-8) and she showed me the program she has to use to fill out report cards. The comments are pre-written and she just selects the ones she thinks fits. Things like "... is advancing well" or "... is struggling in this topic" or "... needs to speak up more in class" etc.

I don't remember them all, but I am absolutely certain "... is struggling with their gender identity" was not one of the choices.

I don't remember everything I said, but I'm absolutely certain I didn't suggest it was.

If my child had a preferred name of Sally at school, and one of Scott at home, I might be able to deduce something was up, but regardless...straw manning people whose opinion you disagree with is not ideal.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yes, although becoming a teacher or priest involves actually studying about the profession they're entering, oftentimes taking years. Becoming a parent is more a matter of biology, at least at its core. My view is that if someone is already superstitious, violent, abusive, ignorant - then I don't see how the act of having kids would actually change that condition - at least not by itself.

I studied teaching for four years, and was a psych major on top of it. It gave me zero preparation for dealing with a transgender student who was finding their situation difficult.

Whereas I've invested 15 years in trying to understand my eldest daughter.

If we want to judge parents by the lowest common denominator, they should all have their kids removed from them. I'm assuming you're not suggesting that, right?

 

[fantome profane]

I don't remember everything I said, but I'm absolutely certain I didn't suggest it was.

If my child had a preferred name of Sally at school, and one of Scott at home, I might be able to deduce something was up, but regardless...straw manning people whose opinion you disagree with is not ideal.

I really wasn't trying to straw man you. I was just sharing something. I am sorry if you thought it was an argument against anything you said, it wasn't.