Parents Rights On Transgender Policy

[icehorse]

That is the exact question many of us started with.

If the child is not telling their parents there is probably a good reason.

The kind of parents that the child does not want to confide in are likely just the kind of parents that should not be told by a third party.

Did you ever want privacy when you were a kid? If so, was that because you had bad parents?

If so, I'm sorry you went through that. But healthy kids in healthy families want privacy sometimes.

 

[Debater Slayer]

All agreed, but those are answering a different question. The question is "Should the state ASSUME it knows better than parents in general, or should we ASSUME good parenting in general?"

My answer is the same: It depends on the country or state, the issue in question, and the individual child's circumstances. Depending on those factors, assuming good parenting could either be life-saving and necessary or profoundly irresponsible and life-threatening for the child.

 

[Soandso]

Like realistically, it's already happening. And we know this is true from many of forms of activism. Activists shift Overton windows all over the place.

Oh wait, so by TRAs you were saying that as an acronym for trans activists. I initially thought you misspelled trans

Anyways, I think this has less to do with trans activism personally and has more to do with a broader societal shift where we actually seriously consider sex vs. gender. With that consideration has come more thoughtful understanding in the grey areas where we used to apply black and white logic to a fault, which of course has left intersex, trans, and non-binary folks out in the cold. It's just society maturing/changing, is all. It's not the only societal change that has happened, nor will it be the last

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ah, but notice that we're not allowed to call this a mental illness. We can't even call it a disorder.

It's referred to as "gender dysphoria" in the DSM-5-TR.

 

[icehorse]

What are the "both sides" here? The Republican Party is currently working at full throttle to ban gender-affirming care for minors including non-surgical interventions. They're not just trying to limit surgeries, and they're not taking into account the input of medical organizations. Without access to so much as gender-affirming therapy (again, not surgery or hormone therapy but merely talk therapy), there are minors who will inevitably suffer and be at an increased risk of mental health issues such as depression, anxiety, or even suicide. There are well-documented statistics about the effects of gender-affirming care on mental health.

I'm very happy to see you making distinctions between surgeries, drugs, and talk therapy!

I do have a side question though, and I think it's quite relevant: In this discussion how are we defining "gender" and "sex"? I ask because I think the phrase "gender affirming" is logically incoherent with what it means. It seems to actually mean "sex change", correct?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I'm very happy to see you making distinctions between surgeries, drugs, and talk therapy!

I do have a side question though, and I think it's quite relevant: In this discussion how are we defining "gender" and "sex"? I ask because I think the phrase "gender affirming" is logically incoherent with what it means. It seems to actually mean "sex change", correct?

Are you serious?

 

[icehorse]

It's referred to as "gender dysphoria" in the DSM-5-TR.

Indeed, the healthcare industry is incoherent on this front. WHO recently abandoned "dysphoria" in favor of "incongruence" ?!

 

[fantome profane]

Did you ever want privacy when you were a kid? If so, was that because you had bad parents?

If so, I'm sorry you went through that. But healthy kids in healthy families want privacy sometimes.

Of course, and I think we should give it to them.

You are right, and make a good point. I have been saying that if a transgender child doesn't tell their parents there is likely a reason. Implying that the parents might react badly and might result in physical or emotional abuse, and that is a possibility that needs to be considered.

But it is also possible that the transgender child is just waiting to tell their parents at the right time, and in the right way. It is a difficult and sensitive issue, and I think we should allow them the privacy and space to do it the way they want to do it. We don't need an official from the school outing them with a phone call or a letter.

 

[icehorse]

You keep saying, yet you fail to elaborate.

Again, YOU have said that being a person who claims a man can have a vagina makes you a "trans radical activist". My friend, a trans man, is a man who has a vagina. Ergo, to you, my trans friend is a TRA. As are all trans people, because all trans people believe their genitals do not inform their gender.

Explain the lack of logic, here.

well i meant "trans rights activists", and I think your "ergo" needs a bit of a rethink.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Indeed, the healthcare industry is incoherent on this front. WHO recently abandoned "dysphoria" in favor of "incongruence" ?!

Nope, those are two different things.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

well i meant "trans rights activists", and I think your "ergo" needs a bit of a rethink.

Don't evoke logic if you can't use it.

Are you willing to state, unambiguously, that being a person who believes and advocates that a man can have a vagina does NOT make you a TRA, then?

 

[icehorse]

My answer is the same: It depends on the country or state, the issue in question, and the individual child's circumstances. Depending on those factors, assuming good parenting could either be life-saving and necessary or profoundly irresponsible and life-threatening for the child.

So sincerely, what I think I'm understanding you to say is that "sometimes" the state should ASSUME bad parents?

I'm not talking about cases in which there is good evidence, I'm talking about ASSUMING.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Indeed, the healthcare industry is incoherent on this front. WHO recently abandoned "dysphoria" in favor of "incongruence" ?!

The DSM is published by the American Psychiatric Association, and is followed by virtually every clinician/psychiatrist/psychologist in the US (and those associated with the Canadian Psychological Association in Canada). It's always a work in progress, but I wouldn't call it anything close to "incoherent."

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm very happy to see you making distinctions between surgeries, drugs, and talk therapy!

I always have. Europe is generally quite stringent about the requirements for having sex-reassigning hormone therapy and surgery for individuals younger than 18, but more than one European country allows people to change their gender in official documents without even needing a medical diagnosis or sex reassignment. (Whether I agree with this is a separate topic, and it's also unrelated here.)

What is happening in the US with the bans targeting gender-affirming care goes well beyond medically sound stringency. Banning non-invasive interventions seems to me rooted in a theocratic and overly socially authoritarian, anti-scientific political inclination, not medical concerns. There's also the hyperbole of trying to dismiss all gender-affirming care as "child mutilation" or "castration" even though a lot of it—most of it that's recommended for children by medical guidelines—is neither surgical nor irreversible.

In many cases, one of the ways of ensuring there's no need for surgery, hormone therapy, or any other irreversible physical intervention until a minor diagnosed with gender dysphoria reaches adulthood is to let them live as a member of their identified gender wherever and whenever possible. How many of those who want to ban gender-affirming care do you think would be willing to accept this entirely non-surgical, reversible, and medically approved course of action? How many of them even acknowledge that not all people fit into a gender binary?

I do have a side question though, and I think it's quite relevant: In this discussion how are we defining "gender" and "sex"? I ask because I think the phrase "gender affirming" is logically incoherent with what it means. It seems to actually mean "sex change", correct?

The excerpts below mostly match how I'm defining "gender" and "sex," with the clarification that I believe there's an overlap between biological sex and gender. How much of gender expression comes down to nature versus nurture is a different question, though. I think it could be about 30% to 70% or 35% to 65%, respectively, although that's a very rough estimate that could be off by a bit. Still, I definitely believe there's a biological component to gender, in addition to the sociological one.

Sex' and 'gender' are often used interchangeably, despite having different meanings:

Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.

What is gender? What is sex? - CIHR

...

cihr-irsc.gc.ca

Gender-affirming care doesn't always have to do with changing sex, no. Usually, it includes thorough evaluation of a person to assess whether they meet diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria, social support for them if they do, and talk therapy that addresses any sociologically challenging conditions they may be facing due to their gender identity. Sex reassignment surgery and hormone therapy are only a subset of gender-affirming care in some cases.

 

[Soandso]

I do have a side question though, and I think it's quite relevant: In this discussion how are we defining "gender" and "sex"? I ask because I think the phrase "gender affirming" is logically incoherent with what it means. It seems to actually mean "sex change", correct?

No. Gender affirming care are things that can be done to deal with people's insecurities or things they don't like about themselves in relation to their gender. This isn't just limited to intersex or trans people, nor is it limited to medical procedures, but can be done for run of the mill schmucks like you and me as well in very mundane ways. For instance, the guy who is balding and wants to look more masculine might use medicine to keep or grow back the hair he's lost and he might start going to the gym to start looking more masculine. This is what I've come to understand as gender affirming care, at least

 

[Debater Slayer]

So sincerely, what I think I'm understanding you to say is that "sometimes" the state should ASSUME bad parents?

I'm not talking about cases in which there is good evidence, I'm talking about ASSUMING.

Without evidence, I don't believe the "state" should assume anything. I also think the "state" is an inaccurate descriptor here; child-protection services are only a small subset of the state and may not be in harmony with all other state apparatuses. Referring to it as the "state" conjures up images of a large, monolithic entity acting in authoritarian harmony.

When a region has considerably prevalent anti-LGBT sentiments up to and including cases of disownment, domestic violence, and political campaigns to restrict LGBT rights, I believe it would be wise for CPS not to assume good parenting by default when it comes to LGBT issues in specific. This is not to say that most parents would be bad; just that when the odds cross a certain threshold, working under such a default assumption becomes highly risky, as in the hypothetical I gave earlier about the especially conservative Saudi parent.

 

[PureX]

A New Jersy judge ruled that three schoold districts do not have to inform parents if their child changes their gender identity.
I for one believe that parents have the right to know what their child is doing or what they want to do in any situation. What rights do you think parents have in this manner??

New Jersey judge temporarily blocks school districts from notifying parents of child's gender identity change

A New Jersey judge temporarily blocked three school districts from enforcing new policies requiring staff to inform parents if their child changes their gender identity.

www.foxnews.com

What does "change their gender identity" even mean? "He" wants to be called "she"? I'm not seeing a problem with it. What can the parents do even if they know? Forbid it? How do you think that's going to work out?

 

[We Never Know]

Yes, because that is what schools are suppose to do, they are suppose to teach math.

Despite what many in this thread seem to think it is not the role of schools to enforce gender conformity.

When I was a kid my parents had to sign my report card, and there were interim reports, and sometimes when I failed a test my parents had to sign that. But never did they report to my parents how masucline or feminine I was. That was not their job.

"Despite what many in this thread seem to think it is not the role of schools to enforce gender conformity"

IMO its not the role of the school to enforce, embrace, keep hidden, etc etc about gender identity"

 

[Koldo]

Parents have legal responsibilities to take good care of their children.

Yes, which has no bearing on what I was criticizing.

 

[Alien826]

Well, what's your definition of "gender"? What's your definition of "sex"?

At one time I would have said that the two words had more or less the same meaning, but these days, well let me quote from this site.

Sex and gender: Meanings, definition, identity, and expression

Sex and gender are different. Sex is assigned at birth, while gender is how a person identifies. Gender encompasses a broad spectrum. Learn more here.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

“Sex” refers to the physical differences between people who are male, female, or intersex. A person typically has their sex assigned at birth based on physiological characteristics, including their genitalia and chromosome composition. This assigned sex is called a person’s “natal sex.”

Gender, on the other hand, involves how a person identifies. Unlike natal sex, gender is not made up of binary forms. Instead, gender is a broad spectrum. A person may identify at any point within this spectrum or outside of it entirely.

The TRAs are trying to conflate those two words and the realities that underlie them, and that matters a great deal.

No idea what a TRA is, and I've tried to look it up, so it's difficult to comment on that.