Parents Rights On Transgender Policy

[Debater Slayer]

Unless we want to be Orwellian, shouldn't we assume good parenting?

I don't know what the word "Orwellian" has to do with this. Then again, I find it quite overused and misapplied in general.

Whether we should assume good parenting seems to me highly dependent on the issue in question, the country or state, and the individual child, among other variables. So, for example, if a school told a father in a particularly conservative part of Saudi Arabia that his child needed to spend more time with parents, I think it would be quite reasonable to assume by default that the father would respond well and in the child's best interests. But keep everything the same and change "needs to spend time with parents" to "the child is homosexual [or an atheist]" and the result would most likely be disastrous, and in most cases, I think the default assumption about those two specific subjects should be immense caution with parents in Saudi Arabia.

I see no universal answer here. It depends on context.

 

[icehorse]

My point is that the validity of something isn't measured by its acceptance.

Hooray! So, can we use old fashioned concepts like evidence and logic?

 

[icehorse]

Even if that were true, which it's definitely not, is 0.5% of the population really going to be able to change that much in an entire society? Like, realistically

Like realistically, it's already happening. And we know this is true from many of forms of activism. Activists shift Overton windows all over the place.

 

[fantome profane]

Well, what's your definition of "gender"? What's your definition of "sex"?

The TRAs are trying to conflate those two words and the realities that underlie them, and that matters a great deal.

So do you agree that those two terms should not be conflated? Do you agree that they mean different things?

 

[icehorse]

I don't know what the word "Orwellian" has to do with this.

Assuming parents are bad and the state knows better seems quite Orwellian to me.

Then again, I find it quite overused and misapplied in general.

So what?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Trans people are NOT the same thing as trans activism.

(One would think that this is obvious, but on RF the conflation is positively rampant!)

You have literally said that someone stating a woman can have a penis and a man can have a vagina makes them a "trans radical activist".

So, yes, to you, simply BEING TRANS and being a "TRA" are the same thing.

 

[icehorse]

So do you agree that those two terms should not be conflated? Do you agree that they mean different things?

yes

 

[Father Heathen]

Hooray! So, can we use old fashioned concepts like evidence and logic?

Yes, you may now start doing so. Don't worry, with practice you'll get the hang of it.

 

[icehorse]

You have literally said that someone stating a woman can have a penis and a man can have a vagina makes them a "trans radical activist".

So, yes, to you, simply BEING TRANS and being a "TRA" are the same thing.

recheck your logic

 

[icehorse]

Yes, you may now start doing so. Don't worry, with practice you'll get the hang of it.

I've been doing so all along, and apart from this topic, so have you

 

[ImmortalFlame]

recheck your logic

No getting away with this one. It's what YOU have said. Or do you now believe that a person making the statement "a man can have a vagina and a woman can have a penis" is NOT a "TRA", despite your previous statements?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Assuming parents are bad and the state knows better seems quite Orwellian to me.

Good thing that's not what my point is, then.

And some parents are indeed incapable of handling certain issues without committing child abuse. This is a fact, and it's why child-protection services exist. Those are usually part of the state even in the most developed countries.

So what?

I think the word "Orwellian" is irrelevant to the context we're discussing.

 

[icehorse]

The job of a psychologist/psychiatrist is to help a person navigate their mental distress in order to help them lead a more functional life. That's the lens through which they view this stuff. I'm not in it for the money. I'm in it to help people.

There also seems to be something of a misunderstanding here as well, where mental illness is being viewed as something that isn't real or is "just in your head" or whatever. Let's be clear, it is very real. The physical symptoms I experience when having a panic attack are very real, and very physical, even though they stem from thoughts in my head. We can't just write it off as "it's all in your head" so we can just brush it aside and ignore it.

Ah, but notice that we're not allowed to call this a mental illness. We can't even call it a disorder.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Trans people are NOT the same thing as trans activism.

(One would think that this is obvious, but on RF the conflation is positively rampant!)

I'd say that trans activism is simply the support of transgender people and their existence, but taking it to a higher level than how some trans people may defend themselves.

 

[icehorse]

No getting away with this one. It's what YOU have said. Or do you now believe that a person making the statement "a man can have a vagina and a woman can have a penis" is NOT a "TRA", despite your previous statements?

nope, you made an illogical leap.

 

[icehorse]

And some parents are indeed incapable of handling certain issues without committing child abuse. This is a fact, and it's why child-protection services exist. Those are usually part of the state even in the most developed countries.

All agreed, but those are answering a different question. The question is "Should the state ASSUME it knows better than parents in general, or should we ASSUME good parenting in general?"

 

[icehorse]

I'd say that trans activism is simply the support of transgender people and their existence, but taking it to a higher level than how some trans people may defend themselves.

Indeed, it includes that. But sadly, it often goes much further.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

nope, you made an illogical leap.

You keep saying, yet you fail to elaborate.

Again, YOU have said that being a person who claims a man can have a vagina makes you a "trans radical activist". My friend, a trans man, is a man who has a vagina. Ergo, to you, my trans friend is a TRA. As are all trans people, because all trans people believe their genitals do not inform their gender.

Explain the lack of logic, here.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Indeed, it includes that. But sadly, it often goes much further.

Sometimes, it does, admittedly.

However, I think that too often, people will label things as a negative form of trans activism, when it's more of a neutral or positive form.

Although, it's that 2-10% of trans activism that's really destructive, that makes news stories.

 

[Debater Slayer]

My assumption (rightly or wrongly) is that children in those areas would be poorly served by talking to their schools, and either have no good options (sadly) or would need to pursue assistance via medical professionals where there would be (theoretically) the benefit of patient-doctor privilege in at least some circumstances (perhaps based on age, for example).

That assumption may or may not be fair.

At least in the countries where I have lived, I would say that assumption is quite fair, except that many medical professionals also wouldn't hesitate to violate the child's privacy and leak potentially life-threatening information to their parents straight out of the therapist's office explicitly for the purpose of upholding "religion and traditions."

One of the therapists I have seen firmly believes in conversion therapy and claims that "there's a story behind every homosexual." His views are not as prevalent as they used to be two or three decades ago, but he's still far from alone. As you said, there are unfortunately no good or safe options for many children (and young adults) in certain parts of the world.

Whereas my daughters school literally flies the rainbow flag from the flagpole.

Yep, I do believe Australia is doing immensely well on a global level in terms of acceptance and basic rights.