Parents Rights On Transgender Policy

[icehorse]

Don't evoke logic if you can't use it.

Are you willing to state, unambiguously, that being a person who believes and advocates that a man can have a vagina does NOT make you a TRA, then?

In general I'd say:

- people are far less likely to respond to strawmen
- people are far more likely to respond to steelmen
- people are far more likely to respond to sincere requests for clarification

 

[icehorse]

The DSM is published by the American Psychiatric Association, and is followed by virtually every clinician/psychiatrist/psychologist in the US (and those associated with the Canadian Psychological Association in Canada). It's always a work in progress, but I wouldn't call it anything close to "incoherent."

I said the "healthcare industry", I was not commenting on the DSM.

 

[Alien826]

It's universally true which is why they are under adult guardianship, can't engage in binding agreements and have laws to protect them.

Good to know that all adults are more intelligent, discerning and so on than all children. That's not my experience. The laws are there for good reason but have to deal with the groups of people as a whole.

 

[icehorse]

No idea what a TRA is, and I've tried to look it up, so it's difficult to comment on that.

TRA is a trans rights activist.

 

[icehorse]

Gender-affirming care doesn't always have to do with changing sex, no. Usually, it includes thorough evaluation of a person to assess whether they meet diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria, social support for them if they do, and talk therapy that addresses any sociologically challenging conditions they may be facing due to their gender identity. Sex reassignment surgery and hormone therapy are only a subset of gender-affirming care in some cases.

I'm 100% behind talk therapy. Although I think the word "affirm" is quite an odd term for a therapist to come into a situation using, no?

But let's look at surgery and drugs: Using the current definitions of gender and sex, those are NOT about gender, they're about sex, right?

 

[fantome profane]

I'm 100% behind talk therapy. Although I think the word "affirm" is quite an odd term for a therapist to come into a situation using, no?

But let's look at surgery and drugs: Using the current definitions of gender and sex, those are NOT about gender, they're about sex, right?

Only one small specific part of it is about sex. Most of it is about gender. The one part that is about sex sometimes never happens at all, and is usually the last thing to happen, and only ever happens to adults.

If you choose to exclude everything about gender and only look at that one thing that is about sex, then you can say it is all about sex. But that is not logical.

And remember that talk therapy is not about talking anyone into being transgender, it is just talking about their feelings. They are just as likely to come to the conclusion that they should not pursue any kind of change.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

In general I'd say:

- people are far less likely to respond to strawmen

Oh? You mean, strawmen like "people on this forum have advocated castrating minors" and "TRAs say there is no such thing as biological sex, and it's a social construct"? Those strawmen?

- people are far more likely to respond to steelmen
- people are far more likely to respond to sincere requests for clarification

You can't even answer a simple, straightforward question. You're in no position to lecture me on debate. Your positions are incoherent and don't stand up to even mild questioning.

 

[icehorse]

Only one small specific part of it is about sex. Most of it is about gender. The one part that is about sex sometimes never happens at all, and is usually the last thing to happen, and only ever happens to adults.

If you choose to exclude everything about gender and only look at that one thing that is about sex, then you can say it is all about sex. But that is not logical.

And remember that talk therapy is not about talking anyone into being transgender, it is just talking about their feelings. They are just as likely to come to the conclusion that they should not pursue any kind of change.

It strikes me that the phrase "gender affirming" is loaded going in, no?

 

[fantome profane]

It strikes me that the phrase "gender affirming" is loaded going in, no?

No. It isn't transgender affirming, it is gender affirming. They could just as likely affirm someone in their cis gender identity.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree, and I would also add that I've observed a certain cultural trope in which it is generally believed that the very process of becoming a parent somehow magically imbues the parent with some kind of sage, great "wisdom," implying that only they know what is best for their children. This kind of mentality is what enables child abuse and forces children to live in a prison imposed by their parents until they're 18.

I hate that mentality. Yes, it definitely enables child abuse, and it will upfront, wholesale dismiss everyone who isn't a parent despite the person's resume with kids. Like me, my sister is a crap parent so I've done a lot helping raise her four kids plus I have a psych degree and have worked with kids. But I've not had any so I'm frequently told I have no idea what I'm talking about even though I've done more for my nieces and nephews (like having sex talks) than these people who dismiss me and say I have no idea what I'm talking about and would see things differently if I was an actual patent. No, nothing would change and I still have more experience learning by trial and error than they do (like when I say spanking is always unnecessary and s bull**** parenting to hit your kids).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It strikes me that the phrase "gender affirming" is loaded going in, no?

No. A great example is a member here who shared a story of a (cis)guy approaching him and asking the cismale member to teach him to be abit more masculine. That's gender affirming treatment among cisgendered people.

 

[Alien826]

TRA is a trans rights activist.

OK, thanks. I can comment now.

Is it reasonable to conflate sex and gender in these cases? I don't think there's a simple yes/no answer to this. From the definitions I quoted, sex is determined at birth by observation of physical characteristics and also DNA. The only thing that can't be changed by surgery and drugs is DNA. So, he has a penis and testicles ... he's male. She has no penis or testicles and a vagina .... she's female. Except that she still has a Y chromosome.

I think you're asking "is she really a woman?" and my reply is, good question, I could argue both positions.

But does it matter, so long as she is happier with what she is now than what he was before?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Trans people are NOT the same thing as trans activism.

(One would think that this is obvious, but on RF the conflation is positively rampant!)

Do you even know who the activists are? Do you know what they actually stand for?
And no, they aren't conflating sex and gender. That's conservatives who are trying to restrict and reduce speech in a way that seems "Newspeak lite."

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm 100% behind talk therapy. Although I think the word "affirm" is quite an odd term for a therapist to come into a situation using, no?

What the word denotes in a clinical context is not simply, "The doctor will just agree with whatever their patient says." It primarily means providing people who are questioning their gender or identifying with another gender with professional evaluation, access to professional help, and therapy addressing any sociological or medical challenges they may be facing. For those who get diagnosed with gender dysphoria or don't fall into the traditional gender binary, gender-affirming care also includes validation rather than dismissal of their gender identity.

What is gender-affirming care?​

Gender-affirming care, as defined by the World Health Organization, encompasses a range of social, psychological, behavioral, and medical interventions “designed to support and affirm an individual’s gender identity” when it conflicts with the gender they were assigned at birth. The interventions help transgender people align various aspects of their lives — emotional, interpersonal, and biological — with their gender identity. As noted by the American Psychiatric Association (APA), that identity can run anywhere along a continuum that includes man, woman, a combination of those, neither of those, and fluid.

The interventions fall along a continuum as well, from counseling to changes in social expression to medications (such as hormone therapy). For children in particular, the timing of the interventions is based on several factors, including cognitive and physical development as well as parental consent. Surgery, including to reduce a person’s Adam’s Apple, or to align their chest or genitalia with their gender identity, is rarely provided to people under 18.

“The goal is not treatment, but to listen to the child and build understanding — to create an environment of safety in which emotions, questions, and concerns can be explored,” says Rafferty, lead author of a policy statement from the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) on gender-affirming care.

What is gender-affirming care? Your questions answered

As states move to restrict certain treatments for transgender youth, experts explain the many types of care, the need for them, and their impact.

www.aamc.org

As you can see, most of the interventions, especially for minors, are focused on evaluation, support, and non-invasive therapy. Do you think the current bans targeting gender-affirming care acknowledge this? In your view, are the bans compatible with preserving the accessibility and integrity of the healthcare system in a developed, democratic country?

But let's look at surgery and drugs: Using the current definitions of gender and sex, those are NOT about gender, they're about sex, right?

They're about both, because the vast majority of people, including those with gender dysphoria, experience their gender identity in a way that is profoundly linked to their biological sex and body, whether their gender matches their sex (i.e., they're cisgender) or they have gender dysphoria and therefore experience distress because of the mismatch between their gender and sex. This is also one of the main reasons I believe that there's a link between gender and sex, although the extent of that link is a much more complicated issue.

So, in the case of sex reassignment surgery or hormone therapy for gender dysphoria, the aim is to bring the person's body closer to their gender identity. The very acknowledgement of a gender and sex matching each other seems to me a clear indication that gender has a biological component, primarily in the brain.

 

[icehorse]

No. It isn't transgender affirming, it is gender affirming. They could just as likely affirm someone in their cis gender identity.

But what if the issue for an individual isn't any sort of gender issue at all?

My point is that I believe the job of the therapist is to converse with a patient, and listen to them BEFORE categorizing the patient's problem (or lack thereof).

 

[Heyo]

Unless we want to be Orwellian, shouldn't we assume good parenting?

When you assume good parenting there is no need to inform parents about anything else but grades. Good parents have a good relationship with their children and the children inform them.

 

[icehorse]

But does it matter, so long as she is happier with what she is now than what he was before?

Despite all the slurs I receive, I think improving the individual's happiness is a fantastic goal.

But that doesn't mean that the current solutions are good. I'd say "good goals, dubious solutions". Because the other aspect of this is that these solutions don't exist in their own isolated bubbles, they have impacts on the greater society.

 

[icehorse]

As you can see, most of the interventions, especially for minors, are focused on evaluation, support, and non-invasive therapy. Do you think the current bans targeting gender-affirming care acknowledge this? In your view, are the bans compatible with preserving the accessibility and integrity of the healthcare system in a developed, democratic country?

Sadly, I think advocates on both sides of this debate blur and obfuscate the details.

What do you think accounts for the huge spike in young people "identifying" as trans? For example, how big a factor (if any), do you think social contagion plays?

They're about both, because the vast majority of people, including those with gender dysphoria, experience their gender identity in a way that is profoundly linked to their biological sex and body, whether their gender matches their sex (i.e., they're cisgender) or they have gender dysphoria and therefore experience distress because of the mismatch between their gender and sex. This is also one of the main reasons I believe that there's a link between gender and sex, although the extent of that link is a much more complicated issue.

No snark here: Can you define gender the way you're using it above? thanks!

 

[Orbit]

Just going to leave this here: Fox News' Tyrus promises to assault his children if they share their preferred pronouns

 

[fantome profane]

But what if the issue for an individual isn't any sort of gender issue at all?

My point is that I believe the job of the therapist is to converse with a patient, and listen to them BEFORE categorizing the patient's problem (or lack thereof).

I don't think anyone is forced to go into gender affirming therapy. If the individual does not have any gender issue at all they can still seek out therapy to deal with whatever problem they have. And if they have no issues, they can choose not to seek out therapy.

It is no different than going to see a therapist for anxiety. It is the patient feeling that they have an issue and seeking out care. It starts with the patient. The first question will certainly be something like, "how can I help you".* And the patient will say what they think the problem is. No different than seeing a doctor about knee pain.






*(If the first thing the therapist says is "so you're a tranny eh", get a different therapist)