"Parents who do not vaccinate their children should go to jail"

[dawny0826]

Usually articles in USA Today don't provide them, so I wouldn't be looking for them if I were you. .

Can't fool you can I . . . . . . of course this may be because I wasn't trying to provided anything "to evidence how significant of an impact religious beliefs have on decisions to vaccinate; only that they do. But if you're looking for significance you might want to note the 138 cases of measles that broke out in the Amish community of Ohio because they opted out of vaccinations.

Here's a story on it.

I don't read USA Today, so thanks for the heads up.

The outbreaks in these Amish communities are primarily impacting Amish. They're more of a threat to each other than the general population.

They took precautions to lessen the spread of the disease by foregoing large gatherings like weddings and church until there was a good handle on the situation.

What am I missing?

 

[JerryL]

Yep, I know quite a few people whom don't believe in such, either.

I also know two kids that WERE harmed by vaccines. Both cases followed the second set of baby vaccinations.

You either know a very large number of children or have extreme luck. Severe reactions to vaccinations are quire rare.

What's not rare in an vaccinate world are deaths cause by diseases we have since developed vaccines for. Millions and millions of deaths.

That said: there are common, normal reactions. For example: flu vaccines give many people mild flu-like symptoms for a day or two. Also, since vacciation occurs around the same time congenital problems start manifesting and right in a period where issues like SIDS are an issue. It's easy to make a false correlation.

On my island it has been tradition - that when someone got measles, or chickenpox, etc. originally called childhood diseases, the whole community brought their young children over, - to expose them early. I have had measles and chickenpox as a child, and am now pretty much immune. Not a big deal if exposed at the right time, - which as I said - was a taught tradition, still practiced.

• Ear infections occur in about one out of every 10 children with measles and can result in permanent hearing loss.
• As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.
• About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.
• For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.

Then there's also the risk that you *don't* get it at the right age. Many of the healthy adults who died from chickenpox contracted the disease from their unvaccinated children... and let's not start on what happens to pregnant women.

I believe the problem is that these shots are given too early, before their immune systems are fully formed. I believe vaccinations would be safer, long term, if they waited until just before a child started school. No I infant vaccinations.

Decades of study on exactly that have failed to bear out your hypothesis.

Yep, plus they said on the news that some of those getting it - HAD - , been vaccinated.

I haven't watched it on the news lately, but last I watched, they didn't know where it started.

Perhaps they need to look at vaccinated children, - that got measles from the vaccine, - and then gave it to the unvaccinated?

The measles is about 90% contagious to the non-vaccinated (who have not already had it). For vaccinated people, the infection rate is between 1% and 3% (depending on which study I look at).

To put this in perspective: the unvaccinated are ~3% of the population of CA, but they represent the vast majority of the cases.

 

[gnomon]

The first source that you've provided reads like a blog post. I don't see where the author has substantiated their view point with evidence.

In the Commonwealth of Virginia, students are not permitted into public schools, private schools or day cares if they have not met the vaccination requirements by age. A religious exception can be sought, but the State Health Commissioner can order a child out of school if an epidemic presents that would place such child at risk.

http://www.vdh.state.va.us/epidemiology/immunization/documents/SchoolRegulations/cre_1.pdf

You haven't really provided anything to evidence how significant of an impact religious beliefs have on decisions to vaccinate. I gather that greater efforts to educate coupled with sensible legislation geared to keeping kids safe from preventable illness in schools will yield positive impact.

I believe that parents should have the right to opt-out of vaccinations for religious reasons. The State should exclude children from public school if significant risk presents.

What happened in CA is hardly of epidemic proportion, at least not in my opinion.

Why?

Give me one logical reason that a religious argument should override a non-religious argument in any debate while also providing an argument that the religious are given greater liberty merely based upon the idea of tradition or belief.

 

[Nietzsche]

Yep, I know quite a few people whom don't believe in such, either.

I also know two kids that WERE harmed by vaccines. Both cases followed the second set of baby vaccinations.

On my island it has been tradition - that when someone got measles, or chickenpox, etc. originally called childhood diseases, the whole community brought their young children over, - to expose them early. I have had measles and chickenpox as a child, and am now pretty much immune. Not a big deal if exposed at the right time, - which as I said - was a taught tradition, still practiced.

I believe the problem is that these shots are given too early, before their immune systems are fully formed. I believe vaccinations would be safer, long term, if they waited until just before a child started school. No I infant vaccinations.

IMMUNE: resistant to a particular infection or toxin owing to the presence of specific antibodies or sensitized white blood cells.

*

Because by having someone who isn't inoculated the disease can linger and due to how quickly they adapt you ramp up the odds of it changing just enough or in such a way that the inoculation is useless. Vaccinated people are still 'getting' the virus on & inside them, but their antibodies are killing it. However, when you have people who aren't vaccinated, this event happens over and over and due to the law of averages eventually it will mutate enough to overpower or "slip through" the immune system.

And congratulations, because now you've just put countless people in mortal danger.

 

[Ingledsva]

Because by having someone who isn't inoculated the disease can linger and due to how quickly they adapt you ramp up the odds of it changing just enough or in such a way that the inoculation is useless. Vaccinated people are still 'getting' the virus on & inside them, but their antibodies are killing it. However, when you have people who aren't vaccinated, this event happens over and over and due to the law of averages eventually it will mutate enough to overpower or "slip through" the immune system.

And congratulations, because now you've just put countless people in mortal danger.

How have I put anyone in danger?

I get a kick out of people turning a childhood disease like measles, into a deadly monster. Most of the deaths associated with it, are from people with old age medical problems, - and in countries with poor health care, and hygiene.

I have had measles, mumps, and chicken pox. No big deal if exposed as children. Now we give people shots, and claim all is well, even though we KNOW vaccinated people still get these diseases. Personally, I think they are setting the world up for a future horrific pandemic, - because people are no longer naturally getting antibodies to the changing strains of these childhood diseases.

Even ASPIRINE KILLS - Yet we don't make it into a monster.

Note that 16,500, - arthritis patients alone, - in the USA alone, die from using it each year.

A statement from a July 1998 issue of The American Journal of Medicine states the following:

“Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone. The figures of all NSAID users would be overwhelming, yet the scope of this problem is generally under-appreciated.” 1

And again a year later (June 1999) in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine there is a similar statement:

“It has been estimated conservatively that 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur among patients with rheumatoid arthritis or osteoarthritis every year in the United States. This figure is similar to the number of deaths from the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome and considerably greater than the number of deaths from multiple myeloma, asthma, cervical cancer, or Hodgkin’s disease. If deaths from gastrointestinal toxic effects from NSAIDs were tabulated separately in the National Vital Statistics reports, these effects would constitute the 15th most common cause of death in the United States. Yet these toxic effects remain mainly a “silent epidemic,” with many physicians and most patients unaware of the magnitude of the problem. Furthermore the mortality statistics do not include deaths ascribed to the use of over-the-counter NSAIDS.” 2

1. Singh Gurkirpal, MD, “Recent Considerations in Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug Gastropathy”, The American Journal of Medicine, July 27, 1998, p. 31S

2. Wolfe M. MD, Lichtenstein D. MD, and Singh Gurkirpal, MD, “Gastrointestinal Toxicity of Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs”, The New England Journal of Medicine, June 17, 1999, Vol. 340, No. 24, pp. 1888-1889.

*

 

[Kolibri]

There is suggestive evidence that Aspergers or MS can be triggered by a bad vaccination reaction. It is rare, but it is enough for some to consider it a health risk they do not want to take. Some vaccines have mercury in them. Informed consent seems to be a valued commodity more and more in medical practice today.

 

[Nietzsche]

How have I put anyone in danger?

I get a kick out of people turning a childhood disease like measles, into a deadly monster. Most of the deaths associated with it, are from people with old age medical problems, - and in countries with poor health care, and hygiene.

I have had measles, mumps, and chicken pox. No big deal if exposed as children. Now we give people shots, and claim all is well, even though we KNOW vaccinated people still get these diseases. Personally, I think they are setting the world up for a future horrific pandemic, - because people are no longer naturally getting antibodies to the changing strains of these childhood diseases.

I should have been more specific. The "countless people" I was referring to are those with compromised immune systems for one reason or another. Like myself. Or anyone else on suppressants. Or anyone undergoing cancer treatment.

Also. The vaccinated are getting those diseases because people are no longer vaccinating. Did you not read the entirity of my post? Those vaccinated still "get" the virus in their bodies, and they tend to fight it off. But, as I stated it has more and more and more chances of becoming something just different enough that your antibodies won't work. Second, by vaccinating you can wipe the virus off the face of the earth.

I had chickenpox as a kid too. But I didn't have mumps BECAUSE UNTIL RECENTLY WE'D FUUCKING ERADICATED THAT DISEASE. Do you genuinely not understand how viruses work? They 'evolve'(it's not evolution in the strictest sense, but it's easier to say) at an incredibly fast rate and by not vaccinating you are continuously increasing the risk the virus will evolve into something that will(through ever continuing evolution) become extremely dangerous to the healthy.

Also. The amount of difference between antibodies created through vaccine and simply catching the virus naturally? Somewhere between "jack" and "****".

And it's not just things like measles, mumps & such. Polio is there too. Smallpox.

Look up Herd Immunity. You might learn something.

Even ASPIRINE KILLS - Yet we don't make it into a monster.

Note that 16,500, - arthritis patients alone, - in the USA alone, die from using it each year.

A statement from a July 1998 issue of The American Journal of Medicine states the following:

“Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone. The figures of all NSAID users would be overwhelming, yet the scope of this problem is generally under-appreciated.” 1

And again a year later (June 1999) in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine there is a similar statement:

“It has been estimated conservatively that 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur among patients with rheumatoid arthritis or osteoarthritis every year in the United States. This figure is similar to the number of deaths from the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome and considerably greater than the number of deaths from multiple myeloma, asthma, cervical cancer, or Hodgkin’s disease. If deaths from gastrointestinal toxic effects from NSAIDs were tabulated separately in the National Vital Statistics reports, these effects would constitute the 15th most common cause of death in the United States. Yet these toxic effects remain mainly a “silent epidemic,” with many physicians and most patients unaware of the magnitude of the problem. Furthermore the mortality statistics do not include deaths ascribed to the use of over-the-counter NSAIDS.” 2

1. Singh Gurkirpal, MD, “Recent Considerations in Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug Gastropathy”, The American Journal of Medicine, July 27, 1998, p. 31S

2. Wolfe M. MD, Lichtenstein D. MD, and Singh Gurkirpal, MD, “Gastrointestinal Toxicity of Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs”, The New England Journal of Medicine, June 17, 1999, Vol. 340, No. 24, pp. 1888-1889.

*

Here's the thing about Advil & Tylenol. Had they been introduced after the creation of the FDA, they wouldn't be OTC drugs precisely because of what they do to the liver. But they were "grandfathered" in. I am reasonably certain I know more about the dangers of NSAIDs than you do, given the painkillers I have to take just to function.

And the immunosuppressants I have to take for other reasons.

There is suggestive evidence that Aspergers or MS can be triggered by a bad vaccination reaction. It is rare, but it is enough for some to consider it a health risk they do not want to take. Some vaccines have mercury in them. Informed consent seems to be a valued commodity more and more in medical practice today.

I suggest you watch this.

And this isn't taking into account the fact that by letting these diseases continue to exist opens the opportunity for them to develop into something far, far, far more deadly.

Again, look up Herd Immunity.

 

[BSM1]

I almost died two years ago because some ****wad didn't vaccinate his daughter and she gave me measles, because I was on immunosuppressants. Your moralizing is simply enabling to those types of people, and it completely ignores the problems with not-vaccinating. We had almost eradicated a plethora of ailments and they've had a resurgence because of stupid people with even more stupid "beliefs".

Although I am sympathetic to your plight, your rights end where that parent's rights begin. If your situation was that critical I believe it would be incumbent on you to never put yourself in harm's way. Granted if the anti-vaxxer parent had opened your door and thrown in a couple of infected kids then you have a valid argument. I had my kids vaccinated and I would do so again, I am just a little leery of the government using a contrived catastrophe to demand people go against their beliefs.

 

[Nietzsche]

Although I am sympathetic to your plight, your rights end where that parent's rights begin. If your situation was that critical I believe it would be incumbent on you to never put yourself in harm's way. Granted if the anti-vaxxer parent had opened your door and thrown in a couple of infected kids then you have a valid argument. I had my kids vaccinated and I would do so again, I am just a little leery of the government using a contrived catastrophe to demand people go against their beliefs.

It was a public space. I have every right to be where I wish to be so long as I am not a danger to others. They are. There was a girl in a cancer ward(leukemia specifically, I had met her a few times) undergoing her chemo. She contracted mumps or measles. They found out later that a man & his 7yr old son had gone to see a doctor in the hospital to get some fever-reducers and antibiotics. The girl and his son were school friends and because the girl was obviously having a rough day they got something to eat together.

She died about 5 weeks later, but not before unknowingly spreading it to others undergoing cancer treatment.

Would you like to tell her father that he should've just skipped her chemo that day because some ****ing retard hadn't vaccinated his kid? And the other individuals who contracted it from the girl?

 

[BSM1]

Again, I am on your

It was a public space. I have every right to be where I wish to be so long as I am not a danger to others. They are. There was a girl in a cancer ward(leukemia specifically, I had met her a few times) undergoing her chemo. She contracted mumps or measles. They found out later that a man & his 7yr old son had gone to see a doctor in the hospital to get some fever-reducers and antibiotics. The girl and his son were school friends and because the girl was obviously having a rough day they got something to eat together.

She died about 5 weeks later, but not before unknowingly spreading it to others undergoing cancer treatment.

Would you like to tell her father that he should've just skipped her chemo that day because some ****ing retard hadn't vaccinated his kid? And the other individuals who contracted it from the girl?

Again, I'm on your side, but I think we are in some grey area when it comes to personal rights.

 

[Nietzsche]

Again, I am on your


Again, I'm on your side, but I think we are in some grey area when it comes to personal rights.

We have definitive proof as to how dangerous vaccination refusal is. Just look at Africa. As religious extremists came about they started saying that the vaccines were going to render them infertile, or some other such bull****, epidemics started occurring all over the continent. Despite the fact that vaccination had lowered deaths to various viruses to negligible levels in areas where vaccination were widespread. But as more and more people were led astray by stupid, stupid people the ailments returned.

 

[BSM1]

We have definitive proof as to how dangerous vaccination refusal is. Just look at Africa. As religious extremists came about they started saying that the vaccines were going to render them infertile, or some other such bull****, epidemics started occurring all over the continent. Despite the fact that vaccination had lowered deaths to various viruses to negligible levels in areas where vaccination were widespread. But as more and more people were led astray by stupid, stupid people the ailments returned.

I understand and I agree, but where does it stop? Who's to say, for instance, that you can only have two children then you have to be sterilized, for the good of the many.

 

[Nietzsche]

I understand and I agree, but where does it stop? Who's to say, for instance, that you can only have two children then you have to be sterilized, for the good of the many.

Thar argument is no different than assuming that by legalizing gay marriage it'll lead to legal bestiality and pedophilia.

 

[BSM1]

Thar argument is no different than assuming that by legalizing gay marriage it'll lead to legal bestiality and pedophilia.

But still viable. Re: China.

 

[Nietzsche]

But still viable. Re: China.

Which repealed that law a while ago, and was motivated by the serious concerns of over-population at the time. The two aren't comparable.

If you are insistent on not making it mandatory for whatever reason however, then the least one can do is restrict where the non-vaccinated are allowed to go. Their children should not be allowed in public schools, the adults & children not allowed into anything but 'specialist' hospitals that deal only with non-vaccinated people. And no high-traffic areas either.

You mentioned earlier that my rights end where the parents' decisions over their children begin. Fine. But their right to their fist stops at my face.

 

[Ingledsva]

The few whom don't vaccinate are being portrayed as monsters.

There is a different way of looking at this.

If people were allowed to get these childhood diseases, - as children, - they would not be in danger from them, as adults with medical problems, - because they would already have the antibodies.

Far more people die - yearly - world wide, - from drug interactions, - then from normal childhood diseases.

If these vaccinations were truly safe - we wouldn't have to sign an injury disclaimer - to get them.

The vaccines can even cause the illness, even encephalitis (inflammation of the brain.)

*

 

[nilsz]

Refusing to vaccinate your children is an indirect interference into other people's lives. The harm caused increases exponentially the more people omit vaccines. At it's ultimate, we would see the horrific pandemics that convinced people of the past to inject their children with primitive inoculations. This is the more pressing big picture. I do not know what are appropriate countermeasures, but the current situation does not seem ideal.

The giant pharmaceutical companies would love a law making their products mandatory. It would set a precedent allowing them to lobby for all sorts of their products to be mandatory. Of course, they're too moral to do such an underhanded thing. I'm just saying that they would do such a thing if the world were not actually a rose-colored bucolic paradise.

A slippery slope should presumably have been witnessed already? Perhaps it has - I have heard that American children are injected with many more vaccines than Norwegian. This is maybe an interesting point of research, to see that consumers and states are directing funds appropriately.

Yep, I know quite a few people whom don't believe in such, either.

I also know two kids that WERE harmed by vaccines. Both cases followed the second set of baby vaccinations.

This may very well be the case; I do not know the specifics. However, if you mean to say that vaccines caused autism among these kids, it may interest you to know that several studies have found autism rates to be no lower among populations who have not received vaccines suspected of provoking autism.

On my island it has been tradition - that when someone got measles, or chickenpox, etc. originally called childhood diseases, the whole community brought their young children over, - to expose them early. I have had measles and chickenpox as a child, and am now pretty much immune. Not a big deal if exposed at the right time, - which as I said - was a taught tradition, still practiced.

This is dangerous. Measles can cause inflammation of the brain, which can result in permanent mental debilitation.

I believe the problem is that these shots are given too early, before their immune systems are fully formed. I believe vaccinations would be safer, long term, if they waited until just before a child started school. No I infant vaccinations.
IMMUNE: resistant to a particular infection or toxin owing to the presence of specific antibodies or sensitized white blood cells.
*

I have heard this before, it is a popular sentiment. I suggest you read about this from authoratitive sources instead, such as Paul Offit's Autism's False Prophets.

 

[dawny0826]

Why?

Give me one logical reason that a religious argument should override a non-religious argument in any debate while also providing an argument that the religious are given greater liberty merely based upon the idea of tradition or belief.

I'm a religious woman whose children's vaccinations are up to date.

I'm also a woman who values my constitutional freedoms. Though I do not personally agree that it's wise to refrain from vaccinating, I respect that my home state values the constitutional right to religious & personal freedom even if it angers or freaks others out.

Parents who choose not to vaccinate their children don't owe you or I an explanation as to their logic behind their decision. I sure as hell am not obligated to define or justify such logic.

Laws regarding such matters should be reasonable and serve to protect children while upholding constitutional freedoms. The folks who aren't vaccinated are at greater risk for infection than the folks who are, right?

 

[Bunyip]

The few whom don't vaccinate are being portrayed as monsters.

There is a different way of looking at this.

If people were allowed to get these childhood diseases, - as children, - they would not be in danger from them, as adults with medical problems, - because they would already have the antibodies.

Far more people die - yearly - world wide, - from drug interactions, - then from normal childhood diseases.

If these vaccinations were truly safe - we wouldn't have to sign an injury disclaimer - to get them.

The vaccines can even cause the illness, even encephalitis (inflammation of the brain.)

*

Whether or not vaccinations are beneficial in the extreme long term is not yet known, perhaps we just drive pathogens into increasingly dangerous forms. Natural selection applies to pathogens also.

 

[psychoslice]

All I know is that back when I was a kid, all my friends and I had all the childhood so called diseases, and we all came out of it perfectly healthy, and I am glad that I had those so called diseases, it has made me the healthy person I am today.