"Parents who do not vaccinate their children should go to jail"

[Poisonshady313]

I'm also a woman who values my constitutional freedoms. Though I do not personally agree that it's wise to refrain from vaccinating, I respect that my home state values the constitutional right to religious & personal freedom even if it angers or freaks others out.

The problem with that is, it's not a matter of anger of freaking others out. It's a matter of putting the lives of others at risk.

Parents who choose not to vaccinate their children don't owe you or I an explanation as to their logic behind their decision. I sure as hell am not obligated to define or justify such logic.

There is no logic behind their decision.

Laws regarding such matters should be reasonable and serve to protect children while upholding constitutional freedoms.

You can't have it both ways. Choosing not to vaccinate puts everyone at risk.

Besides... whose religion actually prohibits vaccinations? Only one I can think of is Christian Science. But even they allow their members to choose medical treatment... which means the choice to refuse vaccinations is not a religious one, but a personal one. So there is no threat to "free exercise thereof" there.

Also... this is the sort of situation where you should be reminded that rights aren't absolute. Freedom of speech doesn't allow you to yell "fire" in a crowded theater because it is a danger to public safety.

Same logic applies to vaccines. Being allowed to opt out of them is a danger to public safety.

The folks who aren't vaccinated are at greater risk for infection than the folks who are, right?

Yes. They're also at greater risk for helping viruses survive long enough to mutate to a strain that vaccines weren't designed to protect, thereby putting both vaccinated individuals and non vaccinated individuals at risk.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Whether or not vaccinations are beneficial in the extreme long term is not yet known, perhaps we just drive pathogens into increasingly dangerous forms. Natural selection applies to pathogens also.

In 1796, vaccines for smallpox started. In 1979, smallpox had been eradicated.

Diseases on their way to being wiped out seem to be making a comeback due to lack of vaccination. Refusal to vaccinate is what drives pathogens into increasingly dangerous forms. That's what puts even the vaccinated at risk for the very diseases they had been vaccinated for. Refusing vaccination is a giant step backwards for the progress of mankind.

 

[Bunyip]

In 1796, vaccines for smallpox started. In 1979, smallpox had been eradicated.

Diseases on their way to being wiped out seem to be making a comeback due to lack of vaccination. Refusal to vaccinate is what drives pathogens into increasingly dangerous forms. That's what puts even the vaccinated at risk for the very diseases they had been vaccinated for. Refusing vaccination is a giant step backwards for the progress of mankind.

I don't disagree, I am just pointing out that we can not predict the long term consequences.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I don't disagree, I am just pointing out that we can not predict the long term consequences.

How long is long enough?

Smallpox is thousands of years old, was wiped out worldwide after 183 years since the first vaccination for it, and hasn't been vaccinated for in 42 years because it's no longer a threat.

Granted, I am talking about one disease. But there are so many others that have been severely reduced, even wiped out from certain regions, and among the reasons of the failure to eradicate these diseases altogether is lack of vaccination.

So I ask again... not rhetorically... how long is long enough?

 

[Bunyip]

How long is long enough?

Smallpox is thousands of years old, was wiped out worldwide after 183 years since the first vaccination for it, and hasn't been vaccinated for in 42 years because it's no longer a threat.

Granted, I am talking about one disease. But there are so many others that have been severely reduced, even wiped out from certain regions, and among the reasons of the failure to eradicate these diseases altogether is lack of vaccination.

So I ask again... not rhetorically... how long is long enough?

How long is a piece of string?

 

[Poisonshady313]

How long is a piece of string?

It depends on the piece.

 

[Bunyip]

It depends on the piece.

Yes, hence the saying.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Yes, hence the saying.

In that case, I personally am willing to give this vaccination thing at least another 200 years. If it hasn't proven itself to be a catastrophe by then, may it have another 200 years. I suppose if the short term benefits continue to outweigh the short term risks right up until the moment mankind is wiped out by an asteroid, we can officially declare the institution of vaccination to be worthwhile.

 

[Bunyip]

In that case, I personally am willing to give this vaccination thing at least another 200 years. If it hasn't proven itself to be a catastrophe by then, may it have another 200 years. I suppose if the short term benefits continue to outweigh the short term risks right up until the moment mankind is wiped out by an asteroid, we can officially declare the institution of vaccination to be worthwhile.

I'm in favour of vaccinations, just in case you mistook me for an anti-vaccer.

 

[Nietzsche]

I'm in favour of vaccinations, just in case you mistook me for an anti-vaccer.

The dangers of vaccination, whatever few & far between they are, are not remotely comparable to the numbers that the diseases they fight have, will, and will continue to kill.

I've got pictures if you're interested of what a pile of children dead from measles looks like if you want.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'm in favour of vaccinations

I figured as much when you said earlier "I don't disagree".

I just figure that given how indefinitely long "long term" must be, it's hardly worth worrying about (in my opinion).

 

[Bunyip]

The dangers of vaccination, whatever few & far between they are, are not remotely comparable to the numbers that the diseases they fight have, will, and will continue to kill.

I've got pictures if you're interested of what a pile of children dead from measles looks like if you want.

Why would I want that? I am in favour of vaccinations.

 

[Bunyip]

I figured as much when you said earlier "I don't disagree".

I just figure that given how indefinitely long "long term" must be, it's hardly worth worrying about (in my opinion).

It's worth worrying about, I guess. But we have to learn and to try things - sometimes we will win, other times we will lose. I think that part of the issue here is that any expression of concern or criticism mm is mistaken for zealous, unreasoning criminality.

 

[Nietzsche]

Why would I want that? I am in favour of vaccinations.

Because you seem to be arguing against having serious penalties for those who don't do it, and thereby put everyone else at serious risk.

 

[Bunyip]

Because you seem to be arguing against having serious penalties for those who don't do it, and thereby put everyone else at serious risk.

Yes I would definitely argue for better education and better communication from the healthcare industry over criminalisation.
Not sure why I would need pictures of dead kids to hold that opinion.

 

[Nietzsche]

Yes I would definitely argue for better education and better communication from the healthcare industry over criminalisation.
Not sure why I would need pictures of dead kids to hold that opinion.

I don't get passionate about many things. I can probably count them on two hands and have some fingers left over. This is one of them.

 

[Bunyip]

I don't get passionate about many things. I can probably count them on two hands and have some fingers left over. This is one of them.

I am as passionately opposed to the anti - vaccers as you are. In fact I have helped to expose a few of them.

 

[Nietzsche]

I am as passionately opposed to the anti - vaccers as you are. In fact I have helped to expose a few of them.

I dunno. I've never really considered using physical violence on someone for anything but pleasure or amusement, but the first time I seriously considered just beating the **** out of someone for their own(or public) good was an anti-vaccer.

 

[Bunyip]

I dunno. I've never really considered using physical violence on someone for anything but pleasure or amusement, but the first time I seriously considered just beating the **** out of someone for their own(or public) good was an anti-vaccer.

I can relate to that. The Aussie skeptics another group I belong to has been at war with them for years. It is DANGEROUS bull. I do however think that some of the blame lies with the healthcare profession who have not communicated the benefits and arguments as effectively as they could.

 

[averageJOE]

Second, by vaccinating you can wipe the virus off the face of the earth.

This is new to me, so please help me understand.

How do you know this? Is there any disease/virus that has been wiped off the face of the earth because of vaccines?