Part of being Privileged is not having to think about being Privileged

[Kilgore Trout]

I didn't take it as such. Not venting or having white guilt, but acknowledging where whites are privileged in ways that people that color often live with while whites are not aware of.

I hear much of the time from other whites that they would never go to a park I go to when I walk the dog, and the reason is because it's apparently overrun with crime. I'll mention that I've never had that problem and never saw any threats, illicit drug deals, nothing in the last 6 years. So when asked why they think it's overrun with crime, they'll say, "look around", or pointing out "thugs" everywhere. And who they're pointing to? Young black males.

Do young white males run into that kind of suspicion?

Firstly, it sounds like you live in some kind of particularly racist, backward area, so mileage will vary by location. I live in Northern Virginia, which is highly culturally and racially diverse, and I see or hear little to none of this stereotypically old-fashioned behavior you describe from white people - with the exception of when young males may be dressed like thugs and acting aggressively or loudly. Of course, this applies to the young males whether they are black, white, hispanic, asian or in a mixed group, and also applies to people avoiding them whether they are black, white, hispanic, or asian.

Conversely, if your friends are too afraid to go to the park and are restricting their own freedom, how exactly is that a privilege? It sounds like a self-created prison, not some kind of advantage.

 

[dust1n]

Conversely, if your friends are too afraid to go to the park and are restricting their own freedom, how exactly is that a privilege? It sounds like a self-created prison, not some kind of advantage.

I think the privilege she was pointing out is that white males do not receive such suspicion; that a white male or group or white males, or even more so, white women, are unlikely to immediately be deemed suspicious or up to no good.

By the way, no answer for dust1n?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I think the privilege she was pointing out is that white males do not receive such suspicion; that a white male or group or white males, or even more so, white women, are unlikely to immediately be deemed suspicious or up to no good.

Apart from this stereotype being hardly universal, nor one-directional, my point was that there are negative consequences for all involved in such a scenario, and isn't really recognizable as a privilege for anyone.

By the way, no answer for dust1n?

I don't really know what I can add to what I already said. I'm not going to take the time to specify multiple scenarios for each list item showing how it is overly simplistic, naive, and/or biased. Overall, the general perspective of the author defined by the combined statements of the list displays a pattern of overly-simplistic naivete, which in my experience, strikes me as shaltered, ignorant, as well as unintentionally condescending to people on all sides.

 

[Alceste]

Unfortunately, in practice, most people only focus on their own perceived disadvantages, and how they're worse than everyone else's. Bottom line - whatever your background, makeup, or station in life, most people are far too self-focused to have a "clear perception" of the world we live in - whether their self-focus is positive, or negative. It's a pretty idea though.

I don't know about that. For a while I wondered why most of my closest friends have usually been either gay or visible minorities. I eventually came to suspect that there are philosophical benefits to belonging to an "outsider" group. My "outsider" friends have spent some time really thinking about things. Thinking about the world, their place in it, trying to make sense of it all. Because it doesn't make sense, especially when you're in a disenfranchised group.

To give you an example, when I was in Jr. High school I ****** off a girl with a huge attitude problem and a lot of friends on my very first day. From that point forward, this chick was determined to make sure I had no friends and got bullied by the scary banger chicks. That all worked out just fine for her, with one exception. This beautiful, witty, crazy and fun girl whose parents were from Trinidad. (This was an almost entirely white school). Soon after we became friends, the most popular girls in the school (all white) approached her privately and explained that she would be more popular if she wasn't my friend. My friend told her to **** off, and we're still friends now.

Was there a connection between her belonging to an "outsider" group herself and having the backbone to stick up for somebody else in a similar situation? I think so, but it's pretty subtle. (Probably too subtle for most people.)

I think we can only empathize with experiences we can realistically imagine. A little bit of creative substitution might be needed, but as a woman who was blacklisted from film work for "being a tease" (IOW, being a woman on an all-male crew), I can easily relate to I.S.L.A.M's experience of being a passenger who is asked for his ID in a road check because he's black.

If something of that nature has never happened to you, it's much harder to imagine. In fact, a lot of the white dudes here seem to be in total denial that anything like that ever even happens.

 

[dust1n]

Apart from this stereotype being hardly universal, nor one-directional, my point was that there are negative consequences for all involved in such a scenario, and isn't really recognizable as a privilege for anyone.

Well, I don't think anyone would suggest a privilege was uni-directional or universal, but I would agree that in the scenario provided, it obviously serves Mystic's neighbors no real function or benefit, but it does work as... well, something to be noted and annoyed about as a young black male.

It is an example of microaggression.

I don't really know what I can add to what I already said. I'm not going to take the time to specify multiple scenarios for each list item showing how it is overly simplistic, naive, and/or biased. Overall, the general perspective of the author defined by the combined statements of the list displays a pattern of overly-simplistic naivete, which in my experience, strikes me as shaltered, ignorant, as well as unintentionally condescending to people on all sides.

I found many to be hyperbole, or irrelevant. I was just curious as to whether you find a speck of validity to any of the points on the list (whether or whether not the author is naive, simplistic, or worded the point poorly) or whether the notions were entirely untrue.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Firstly, it sounds like you live in some kind of particularly racist, backward area, so mileage will vary by location. I live in Northern Virginia, which is highly culturally and racially diverse, and I see or hear little to none of this stereotypically old-fashioned behavior you describe from white people - with the exception of when young males may be dressed like thugs and acting aggressively or loudly. Of course, this applies to the young males whether they are black, white, hispanic, asian or in a mixed group, and also applies to people avoiding them whether they are black, white, hispanic, or asian.

The neighborhood I live in itself is racially diverse. Our house is situated right between two black households, a hispanic household, close to us an elderly white woman, and a few doors down lives a mixed-race household. In the last generation or so, we've seen the demographics change from a mostly white city to larger groups of black families that have migrated from East St. Louis, which is notorious for it's poverty and crime.

The families that have migrated - from those who I've known - are looking for better opportunities and a safer neighborhood to raise their kids. But unfortunately there are people who just like past generations operated by "white flight", where white affluent households are migrating toward other towns further away from St. Louis.

So, our city has been seeing a demographics change, while my son goes to a school that looks different than what it did when I went to school there, from nearly all-white to a much more racially diverse school. And the middle school I attended when it was nearly all-white is now 75% black.

Conversely, if your friends are too afraid to go to the park and are restricting their own freedom, how exactly is that a privilege? It sounds like a self-created prison, not some kind of advantage.

The conversations stem from the belief that because East St. Louis is so heavily populated by blacks, and if black families from that city migrate to our city, that they will bring crime with them. My grandmother used to enjoy East St. Louis back in the day when it was an industrial and entertainment center of the area. Many people enjoyed it until black families began populating the city and white families began migrating away, fearing for their safety and the purity of their daughters (because apparently young black males were raping young white women everywhere).

It could be a demographics difference, it seems. The perspective carries with it a lot of turf wars and local districts having their own very strong and distinct identity. People around these parts are aware of how they segregate among each other, and race isn't just an avenue of segregation. When people in the St. Louis area ask where you went to school, they mean high school. And it's because people are highly territorial down to identifying with local neighborhoods.

It's true, ymmv. Columbia is them. Belleville is us. East St. Louis is them. University City is them. Dogtown is them. Kirkwood is them. So, it might help explain the manifestation of racism in our part of the country.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If something of that nature has never happened to you, it's much harder to imagine. In fact, a lot of the white dudes here seem to be in total denial that anything like that ever even happens.

Yeah, I don't really see that as being at all representative of the white dudes I've known throughout my life, but I can understand why and how it is an easily formed and accepted stereotype for non-white dudes.

 

[YmirGF]

Why so? Did you have, like, a critique to follow that or something...?

I find it depressing that people are getting sucked into this unproductive kind of thinking. I see the notion of privilege as being a free pass to legitimize anti-white racism, to foment unrest by opening old wounds, basing it on a storytelling narrative that is almost impossible to actually prove. In some ways, I see CRT and the narrative of "white" privilege as being yet another hurdle placed in front of the black community in the states. It solidifies the idea that the deck is stacked against a given community and though I am sure there are instances, here and there, I highly doubt it is a systemic problem.

The psychological impact of this on uneducated blacks could be very damaging and could theoretically affect their ability to find a place in society. Why bother doing anything if life is stacked against you to begin with and unfairly favors your fair skinned countrymen?

I suppose, what gets me is that I see the concept of privilege as a very simplistic notion about very complex problems. If it eventually helps us to get beyond such limited thinking, then all is well and good, but I'm seeing it as being more divisive.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I find it depressing that people are getting sucked into this unproductive kind of thinking. I see the notion of privilege as being a free pass to legitimize anti-white racism, to foment unrest by opening old wounds, basing it on a storytelling narrative that is almost impossible to actually prove. In some ways, I see CRT and the narrative of "white" privilege as being yet another hurdle placed in front of the black community in the states. It solidifies the idea that the deck is stacked against a given community and though I am sure there are instances, here and there, I highly doubt it is a systemic problem.

The psychological impact of this on uneducated blacks could be very damaging and could theoretically affect their ability to find a place in society. Why bother doing anything if life is stacked against you to begin with and unfairly favors your fair skinned countrymen?

I suppose, what gets me is that I see the concept of privilege as a very simplistic notion about very complex problems. If it eventually helps us to get beyond such limited thinking, then all is well and good, but I'm seeing it as being more divisive.

Well said.

 

[Alceste]

Yeah, I don't really see that as being at all representative of the white dudes I've known throughout my life, but I can understand why and how it is an easily formed and accepted stereotype for non-white dudes.

I mean HERE, on RF, in this thread. Examples of privilege and discrimination are pointed out and a chorus of white dudes go "THAT'S not privilege! THAT'S not discrimination! That could happen to anybody!" When everybody who has been discriminated against for superficial reasons understands that's not the case. People really do make snap judgments based on gender, or the colour of your skin, or the way you dress, or whether or not you have an accent, disability, etc. and they really do treat white dudes better than pretty much everybody else, based on these snap judgments. I was blacklisted BECAUSE I am not a white dude. That cost me tens of thousands of dollars, and the best job I ever had. I.S.L.A.M. was IDed as a passenger BECAUSE he's not a white dude. There really is no other plausible reason for either of those examples.

Everybody who isn't a white dude can see it - has experienced it both directly and indirectly. It seems like only white dudes (and only some of them) can't.

 

[Alceste]

I find it depressing that people are getting sucked into this unproductive kind of thinking. I see the notion of privilege as being a free pass to legitimize anti-white racism, to foment unrest by opening old wounds, basing it on a storytelling narrative that is almost impossible to actually prove. In some ways, I see CRT and the narrative of "white" privilege as being yet another hurdle placed in front of the black community in the states. It solidifies the idea that the deck is stacked against a given community and though I am sure there are instances, here and there, I highly doubt it is a systemic problem.

The psychological impact of this on uneducated blacks could be very damaging and could theoretically affect their ability to find a place in society. Why bother doing anything if life is stacked against you to begin with and unfairly favors your fair skinned countrymen?

I suppose, what gets me is that I see the concept of privilege as a very simplistic notion about very complex problems. If it eventually helps us to get beyond such limited thinking, then all is well and good, but I'm seeing it as being more divisive.

Can't speak for black people, but as a woman, it's important to understand that you have to work twice as hard and be twice as good as a white man to get anywhere in life. I think it's important that women and girls understand that. It's not impossible, obviously, but they shouldn't expect fair treatment either. Unreasonable expectations have more potential to cause psychological damage in the long run than a realistic model of the world you have to operate in.

This is not the same as saying "you can't do anything because the odds are stacked against you". It is saying "you CAN do anything, but you will have to be fierce about it - nobody's going to hand you anything on a platter, and you're going to be treated unfairly until you make it to the top."

(Heck, even then you will be treated unfairly. Observe

Spoiler: what to expect when you make it to the top

 

[YmirGF]

Can't speak for black people, but as a woman, it's important to understand that you have to work twice as hard and be twice as good as a white man to get anywhere in life. I think it's important that women and girls understand that. It's not impossible, obviously, but they shouldn't expect fair treatment either. Unreasonable expectations have more potential to cause psychological damage in the long run than a realistic model of the world you have to operate in.

This is not the same as saying "you can't do anything because the odds are stacked against you". It is saying "you CAN do anything, but you will have to be fierce about it - nobody's going to hand you anything on a platter, and you're going to be treated unfairly until you make it to the top."

(Heck, even then you will be treated unfairly. Observe

On the other hand, Alceste, I have had the great pleasure of working for some very strong and powerful women. They were often VERY difficult to work for, but ultimately it was always a rewarding experience. At the same time, I trained a lot of young people and didn't notice boys being better than girls or vice versa. Perhaps I'm too liberal. That said, I've fired my fair share of white men and white women, whereas I never did have to terminate any other flavors. Well, there was Johannes from South Africa... but he ended up quitting.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Somebody had to bring wiki into this:

From another perspective, white privilege is a way of conceptualizing racial inequalities that focuses on advantages that white people accrue from their position in society as well as the disadvantages that people of color experience.[23]
Dan J. Pence and J. Arthur Fields have observed resistance in the context of education to the idea that white privilege of this type exists, and suggest this resistance stems from a tendency to see inequality as a black or Latino issue. One report noted that white students often react to in-class discussions about white privilege with a continuum of behaviors ranging from outright hostility to a "wall of silence."[24] A pair of studies on a broader population by Branscombe et al. found that framing racial issues in terms of white privilege as opposed to non-white disadvantages can produce a greater degree of racially biased responses from whites who have higher levels of racial identification. Branscombe et al. demonstrate that framing racial inequality in terms of the privileges of whites increased levels of guilt among white respondents. Those with high racial identification were more likely to give responses which concurred with modern racist attitudes than those with low racial identification.[25] According to the studies' authors these findings suggest that representing inequality in terms of outgroup disadvantage allows privileged group members to avoid the negative implications of inequality.[26]

Source: White privilege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Alceste]

Somebody had to bring wiki into this:

Source: White privilege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, for feck's sake, nobody's asking anybody to feel guilty about anything. If people are feeling that way, they can easily remedy the situation by acknowledging that our society is unfair and disapprove of the unfairness.

The repression of our uncomfortable observations about the world creates weird feels and weirder behaviors.

I'm white. I don't feel guilty talking about white privilege. I sat through the trial of the Gustafsen Lake occupiers and talked to a lot of native people. I read a lot of books by native people. Not once did anybody ever suggest that I should personally feel bad about what was done to the first nations by others of my race. And those Gustafsen Lake folks were total sovereigntists. They wanted NOTHING TO DO with the Canada of "white" folks, and I don't blame them. They didn't blame me either. We got along just fine.

 

[Alceste]

On the other hand, Alceste, I have had the great pleasure of working for some very strong and powerful women. They were often VERY difficult to work for, but ultimately it was always a rewarding experience. At the same time, I trained a lot of young people and didn't notice boys being better than girls or vice versa. Perhaps I'm too liberal. That said, I've fired my fair share of white men and white women, whereas I never did have to terminate any other flavors. Well, there was Johannes from South Africa... but he ended up quitting.

Sure - we're in a pretty liberal corner of a pretty liberal country. About half our premiers are currently women. When I was born it was a total of zero, for the whole of Canadian history.

But you still don't want to give the impression that ANYTHING is going to be possible without a battle. You never know when you're going to inadvertently wake up and discover you're a trailblazer and everybody's out to get you. That's what happened to me when I was a grip. Outsider groups need to be aware of the possible challenges they face and be more careful and cunning than privileged groups.

For example, do you think Obama could have been elected if he, like Bush, had a history of drug abuse and had sunk several corporations into bankruptcy through inept leaderships? Personally, I think not. His history had to be impeccable to win an election. White dudes don't have to do that. You can be a coke fiend (Bush), a drunk (Klein), or get caught on camera smoking crack (Ford), an incompetent buffoon (BoJo) - no problem. Everybody just thinks it's amusing. Hell, even I think it's amusing. If I want to get into politics or become a CEO, I'm gonna have to AT LEAST do my hair, and probably avoid letting people snap photos of me smoking crack with gangsters.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Nowadays, the exchange will go like this.....
Cop: Sir....you in the back....on the left.....the brownish one with taco breath....
You: Me, sir?
Cop: Yes, could I see.....wait.....are you a "white Hispanic" or the regular kind?
You: I'm the regular.....
Cop: Give me your ID, now! And keep your hands where I can see them!

LOL that sounds about right. I also end up cuffed at every stopping once they run my name. They say it's a "formality" for people who have been arrested for violent crimes . They never bother to ask me whether I was ever convicted or if the charges were dismissed; I'm just automatically assumed to be a criminal...

But even if you were the "white" kind, this is no guarantee you won't be beaten or sexually assaulted
randomly by the cops. It's happened to real white guys....the pasty Irish looking kind....whom I know.
I steer of cops when I can.

I don't deny that the cops are cruel to pretty much everybody and should be avoided whenever possible. It's just less likely to encounter police misconduct at RANDOM when you're white.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I think we can only empathize with experiences we can realistically imagine. A little bit of creative substitution might be needed, but as a woman who was blacklisted from film work for "being a tease" (IOW, being a woman on an all-male crew), I can easily relate to I.S.L.A.M's experience of being a passenger who is asked for his ID in a road check because he's black.

I'm not black... Lol I'm a racially mixed mutt but I look like your stereotypical Islander Latino (I'm mostly Puerto Rican and Dominican).

 

[Alceste]

I don't deny that the cops are cruel to pretty much everybody and should be avoided whenever possible. It's just less likely to encounter police misconduct at RANDOM when you're white.

In fairness, you still get it if you're poor. Like REALLY poor, as in homeless. I once saw the cops dragging an old, white homeless guy down the sidewalk by the arms. His pants and underpants had slipped down around his ankles. They didn't care. His legs and *** were scratched up and bleeding from being dragged across the pavement.

Every ******* whales on homeless people, regardless of their skin colour. They're the last outsider group everybody feels it's still politically correct to openly hate.

 

[Alceste]

I'm not black... Lol I'm a racially mixed mutt but I look like your stereotypical Islander Latino (I'm mostly Puerto Rican and Dominican).

My racial imagination is not that refined. I can't call a picture to mind, :sorry1:. Do you feel like you were singled out mainly because of your complexion?

That's what I was trying to get at.

 

[Revoltingest]

For example, do you think Obama could have been elected if he, like Bush, had a history of drug abuse.....

Obama's Drug Use Debated - CBS News

"Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it," wrote Obama about what he would later say were "bad decisions." "Junkie. Pothead. That's where I'd been headed: the final, fatal role of the young would-be black man."