Part of being Privileged is not having to think about being Privileged

[Wherenextcolumbus]

And attributing this to race, gender, and/or sexuality sounds like a cheap and empty cop-out. However, I do understand that it is an easy excuse for many people to write off what straight, white males say just because they're straight, white and male - especially if they don't agree with it, but don't have a substantial argument against it.

I will explain myself, when you belong to a group that has a long history of oppression, what people say affects you, because you have been facing the same prejudice all your life, telling them that they ENJOY being a victim is just sick, and sounds like it comes from a place of privilege.
If a male is sexually harassing me verbally and I am offended or scared by that, that means I am giving him power to continue to do that to me and other women? Sorry but I'm not buying any BS that places more responsibility on the victim than the perp.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I will explain myself, when you belong to a group that has a long history of oppression, what people say affects you, because you have been facing the same prejudice all your life, telling them that they ENJOY being a victim is just sick, and sounds like it comes from a place of privilege.

It's rather presumptuous to assume that all people react and think as you've outlined. This doesn't describe most minority friends I've had throughout my life, but it does describe some who tend towards an attitude of victimization and drama. Some people take a pragamatic approach at life and realize most of how they feel is up to them - other's don't. But don't place your yolk of vicitim-attitude on whole populations of people just because of the color of their skin. That is sick.

If a male is sexually harassing me verbally and I am offended or scared by that, that means I am giving him power to continue to do that to me and other women? Sorry but I'm not buying any BS that places more responsibility on the victim than the perp.

Being scared or threatened isn't the same as being offended. If a black guy calls me "cracker," I'm not offended by that, but if five black guys are following me down the street calling me "cracker" while intimidating me, then I might be scared, but I'm still not offended. Do you understand the difference?

 

[Magic Man]

Why else would you give another person the power to make you feel offended? I don't expect everyone to understand this concept, as many people sincerely think that being offended is something that happens to you, and not something you decide to do. Of course, their attitude does make it easier to feel self-righteous and like a victim - an enjoyable feeling for many people.

Aw, look at that, Kilgore has irrationally convinced himself of something that makes him feel better about himself. I'm glad your incorrect notions at least make you feel superior.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Aw, look at that, Kilgore has irrationally convinced himself of something that makes him feel better about himself. I'm glad your incorrect notions at least make you feel superior.

I assume your lack of presenting any cogent or substantive argument signifies that you don't actually have one. As usual, please present your argument if you have one. And, as usual, I won't hold my breath.

 

[Magic Man]

It's rather presumptuous to assume that all people react and think as you've outlined.

Says the guy making presumptuous blanket statements about huge numbers of people.

Being scared or threatened isn't the same as being offended. If a black guy calls me "cracker," I'm not offended by that, but if five black guys are following me down the street calling me "cracker" while intimidating me, then I might be scared, but I'm still not offended. Do you understand the difference?

Of course you're not offended by black guys calling you cracker, because there's nothing behind it. Also, being sexually harassed verbally and having 5 guys threaten you with bodily harm are very different things. Do you understand the difference?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

It's rather presumptuous to assume that all people react and think as you've outlined. This doesn't describe most minority friends I've had throughout my life, but it does describe some who tend towards an attitude of victimization and drama. Some people take a pragamatic approach at life and realize most of how they feel is up to them - other's don't. But don't place your yolk of vicitim-attitude on whole populations of people just because of the color of their skin. That is sick.



Being scared or threatened isn't the same as being offended. If a black guy calls me "cracker," I'm not offended by that, but if five black guys are following me down the street calling me "cracker" while intimidating me, then I might be scared, but I'm still not offended. Do you understand the difference?

I would be OFFENDED if a guy sexual harassed me and also scared. I never said all people of colour are offended by the same things I am, but I also don't put blame and responsibility on an oppressed group for being offended by something that oppresses them.

 

[Magic Man]

I assume your lack of presenting any cogent or substantive argument signifies that you don't actually have one. As usual, please present your argument if you have one. And, as usual, I won't hold my breath.

As usual, you present nothing of value. I presented my argument. My argument is that yours is nothing but condescending nonsense from a position of privilege that refuses to even attempt to look at things from others' perspectives, instead relying on only your own personal experience so that you can feel superior to other people.

I've also made my arguments about people being offended reasonably. You haven't actually countered anything I've said, but as usual, I won't hold my breath on you actually doing that.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I would be OFFENDED if a guy sexual harassed me and also scared. I never said all people of colour are offended by the same things I am, but I also don't put blame and responsibility on an oppressed group for being offended by something that oppresses them.

I'm not talking about groups. I'm talking about individuals. As an individual, regardless of one's gender, race, nationality, sexuality, or personal history, it's up to each of us to decide how we will react to things and how much power we will give other people to affect us. People, as individuals, almost always do what works for them. You can have two people with similar backgrounds and in similar situations - one may always become irate and offended while the other person puts it in it's context and doesn't give the idiot insulting them the power to offend them. The person who always chooses to be offended does so because being offended works for them.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

As usual, you present nothing of value. I presented my argument. My argument is that yours is nothing but condescending nonsense from a position of privilege that refuses to even attempt to look at things from others' perspectives, instead relying on only your own personal experience so that you can feel superior to other people.

Protip: Your irrational and baseless personal problems with me do not constitute a cogent or substantive argument.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm not talking about groups. I'm talking about individuals. As an individual, regardless of one's gender, race, nationality, sexuality, or personal history, it's up to each of us to decide how we will react to things and how much power we will give other people to affect us. People, as individuals, almost always do what works for them. You can have two people with similar backgrounds and in similar situations - one may always become irate and offended while the other person puts it in it's context and doesn't give the idiot insulting them the power to offend them. The person who always chooses to be offended does so because being offended works for them.

I'm sure that's a very comforting view for you. It's just too bad it's not reality.

Because reality includes a society that is racist and sexist, and you don't choose to be offended. You can choose how you react, of course, but that's different from being offended. Do you understand the difference? Do you also understand that when a woman has a male co-worker smack her butt or ask her to go get coffee for the guys (when it's not part of her job), a reasonable reaction is to let the guy know what's wrong with his actions? If you don't understand that, I'd encourage you to learn. If you do understand it, then you understand that being offended is reasonable in some situations.

 

[Magic Man]

Protip: Your irrational and baseless personal problems with me do not constitute a cogent or substantive argument.

Good thing I don't have irrational or baseless personal problems with you and such things are not part of my argument then.

It is a bit funny coming from that guy whose last argument was stuff like "As usual, I won't hold my breath". Good work there, Captain Double Standard.

 

[Alceste]

And attributing this to race, gender, and/or sexuality sounds like a cheap and empty cop-out. However, I do understand that it is an easy excuse for many people to write off what straight, white males say just because they're straight, white and male - especially if they don't agree with it, but don't have a substantial argument against it.

Hm, you sound a little offended. Not much, but a little. Try to imagine the cumulative impact of being ever so slightly annoyed that you feel people are being dismissive of you for superficial reasons (like gender or ethnicity) if it were to happen to you every day for your entire life. Imagine it went beyond just disregarding your opinion and even cost you a really good job, or some other opportunity.

You're not understanding that the irritation under-privileged groups feel isn't about isolated incidents, but for the whole stinking edifice of white, male, heterosexual privilege. And yes, there is a lot to be genuinely ticked off about. I really did lose a job because of sexism. I was traumatized. I went to school for that job and loved it completely. I made good money for the first (and last) time in my life. So when I see a shirt for girls that says women are weak or stupid, I'm thinking about the $100K job I lost because of that attitude, not the damn shirt. I didn't "give" anybody power to take my job away because I'm not a white male - they had it already, and they used it with impunity.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm sure that's a very comforting view for you. It's just too bad it's not reality.

Just as repeatedly insulting me is comforting for you but doesn't constitute a cogent or substantive position or argument.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I'm not talking about groups. I'm talking about individuals. As an individual, regardless of one's gender, race, nationality, sexuality, or personal history, it's up to each of us to decide how we will react to things and how much power we will give other people to affect us. People, as individuals, almost always do what works for them. You can have two people with similar backgrounds and in similar situations - one may always become irate and offended while the other person puts it in it's context and doesn't give the idiot insulting them the power to offend them. The person who always chooses to be offended does so because being offended works for them.

Or they may both be offended? Or you can get 5 people, 10 people, 20 people and they may all be offended if they are being targeted for racism, sexism or homophobia, but that is not the point. The point is I don't agree that most people enjoy being offended. And I don't agree that being offended gives a person power over you. How do you put an insult in context?
I am not talking about petty insults like "you are a douche bag"
I am talking about oppressive insults and threats.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Hm, you sound a little offended. Not much, but a little. Try to imagine the cumulative impact of being ever so slightly annoyed that you feel people are being dismissive of you for superficial reasons (like gender or ethnicity) if it were to happen to your every day for your entire life. Imagine it went beyond just disregarding your opinion and even cost you a really good job, or some other opportunity.

You're not understanding that the irritation under-privileged groups feel isn't about isolated incidents, but for the whole stinking edifice of white, male, heterosexual privilege. And yes, there is a lot to be genuinely ticked off about. I really did lose a job because of sexism. I was traumatized. I went to school for that job and loved it completely. I made good money for the first (and last) time in my life. So when I see a shirt for girls that says women are weak or stupid, I'm thinking about the $100K job I lost because of that attitude, not the damn shirt. I didn't "give" anybody power to take my job away because I'm not a white male - they had it already, and they used it with impunity.

Indeed, and I'm not arguing against any of that. As usual, my position is simple and concise. Regardless of one's particular background, gender, race, sexual orientation, personal history, etc., we all decide how much power we will give other people to offend us. I'm speaking specifically about being offended by what someone says. Some people may have more legitimate cause or excuse for being offended, but, in the end, it's up to each of us to decide in any given circumstance whether we are going to feel offended by someone's words or not. And, in my experience, regardless of someone's background and particulars, there are people who do not give others power over their feelings and do not feel offended, and there are people who revel in it every chance they get. I've known white guys who get offended at the drop of a hat and black lesbians who never do, and vice versa.

 

[Sunstone]

It interests me that the Zen masters would probably agree with Kilgore that being offended is something within our control. Maybe we Westerners just habitually look at it differently.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

How do you put an insult in context?

By not giving it any weight. If some idiot directs some idiotic insult at you, you can either give that idiot power over you and let their idiotic insult affect you, or you can realize it's an idiot and what they say is irrelevant, so you are not affected by the idiotic comment from an idiot. This is easier for some than others, and being offended and insulted works for certain personality types.

 

[Magic Man]

Just as repeatedly insulting me is comforting for you but doesn't constitute a cogent or substantive position or argument.

I guess this bad attempt at insulting me (there's that double standard again) is easier than addressing the rest of my post (not to mention my other posts) that does constitute a cogent and substantive position and argument.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It interests me that the Zen masters would probably agree with Kilgore that being offended is something within our control. Maybe we Westerners just habitually look at it differently.

Western society has subjected its citizens to an endless succession of dehumanizing and disempowering mindf***s.

 

[Magic Man]

Indeed, and I'm not arguing against any of that.

He says right before he goes on to argue against all of that.

As usual, my position is simple and concise.

Yes, you falsely believe people can choose not to feel offended and that they should always choose not to be offended, as if we can always be in control of our emotions. We're just vainly attempting to open your eyes to the fact that you're wrong.