Pascal's Wager?

[Deidre]

More virtuous?

I lean more to trustworthy.
Doing good because it's your nature.
then walking about in heaven might be more...natural.

If 'doing good' is part of human nature, why is heaven a reward?
Heaven is only a reward for those who follow said deity.

I suppose if you wish to make it all up as you go along, you're welcome to...but why bother?

Logically, I'm an atheist...but I'd say at this stage, I have spiritual leanings, and I've been praying again. But, I'm no longer a theist...and feel that if there is a god, may he/it show me more clearly how I'm to live. But, that thinking in and of itself comes from Christian theology.

You speak of heaven...and you may not follow a religion, but heaven in and of itself, that concept...is from Abrahamic theology.

 

[McBell]

So the devil picks you ( or picks on you).....and you then feel better?

you blatant avoidance is comical.

 

[Thief]

If 'doing good' is part of human nature, why is heaven a reward?
Heaven is only a reward for those who follow said deity.

I suppose if you wish to make it all up as you go along, you're welcome to...but why bother?

Logically, I'm an atheist...but I'd say at this stage, I have spiritual leanings, and I've been praying again. But, I'm no longer a theist...and feel that if there is a god, may he/it show me more clearly how I'm to live. But, that thinking in and of itself comes from Christian theology.

You speak of heaven...and you may not follow a religion, but heaven in and of itself, that concept...is from Abrahamic theology.

Heaven is not a reward.
If you go....it's because you belong there.

Do unto others as you would them do unto you.
You've never needed anything else....or more.

 

[Deidre]

Heaven is not a reward.
If you go....it's because you belong there.

The trouble with this type of talk...is it's a bit presumptuous ...honestly, no one knows what awaits. NO mere mortal I should say. People can surmise...but that's about it.

Do unto others as you would them do unto you.
You've never needed anything else....or more.

This, I like. (and try to live by)

 

[Thief]

The trouble with this type of talk...is it's a bit presumptuous ...honestly, no one knows what awaits. NO mere mortal I should say. People can surmise...but that's about it.



This, I like. (and try to live by)

Well, I have heard......many do good things in the Name of the Lord and He knows them not.

It's the motivation.
If I find you doing what you should ....fine and good.

But to whom is my preference?
Someone sucking up in hope of gaining privilege and position?
or someone living in grace because it is their nature to do so?

 

[Deidre]

Well, I have heard......many do good things in the Name of the Lord and He knows them not.

Heard from who?

I've been on a journey for a while with my own faith beliefs...I'm a former Christian, and now an atheist. However, I'd say I'm an atheist with spiritual leanings. But, in truth...no one knows with certainty who or what a god might be, and man saying he knows this or that about who might make it to heaven, are guessing at best. I never liked that about religion, and if you're not religious...it's a good idea to not pick that bad habit up, of pretending to know 'the mind of God.'

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Heaven is not a reward.
If you go....it's because you belong there.

Given we don't have much power in deciding the person we are shaped into being, I find the notion of any eternal destiny being based on ones nature to be appalling. A psychopath, for example, does not choose to be a psychopath.

 

[McBell]

Heaven is not a reward.
If you go....it's because you belong there.

Even more reason to disregard anything any one says about what one must believe to get there, right?
Even more reason to disregard anything any one says about how one must act to get there, right?

So much for all your dogmatic beliefs about the angel with the sword....
I mean, if you are meant to be there, not even your guardian angel can prevent it.

To think, the last five years of your preaching your dogma all for naught.

 

[nazz]

This is sooo good...please take a moment to read it.

The End of Pascal's Wager: Only Nontheists Go to Heaven

I just skimmed this but I think I got the gist. Thinking about things like this did not lead me to abandon God but to amend my understanding of him. Gnostic teachings helped a lot with that.

 

[Deidre]

I just skimmed this but I think I got the gist. Thinking about things like this did not lead me to abandon God but to amend my understanding of him. Gnostic teachings helped a lot with that.

I like that 'amend my understanding of him.'
You are very clear in your writings, I've enjoyed your posts.

 

[nazz]

I like that 'amend my understanding of him.'
You are very clear in your writings, I've enjoyed your posts.

Thank you!

 

[Penumbra]

Take from Wikipedia as to give a clean, concise definition:

Pascal's Wager posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or not. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming an infinite gain or loss associated with belief or unbelief in said God (as represented by an eternity in heaven or hell), a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.).

Interestingly, I wrote a blog about Pascal's Wager when on an atheist website. Coming from the vantage point of an atheist, I didn't think it made much sense to 'wage' one's life on assuming a deity exists, but now...I'm not so sure I consider myself an atheist. I've had this deep void over this past year, a God-shaped hole if you will, ever since my grandmother's health began to decline about a year ago. She lived to be in her 80's and died last week. It isn't so much concerning myself over an after life that I feel torn between not believing and believing...but I was once emotionally attached to my faith, it gave me great comfort in believing that a god was looking out for me and those I cared about. There is much joy to be had in this life, as an atheist, and I've experienced it, but there's something I still miss about faith life.

Having said this, Pascal's Wager was never intended to recruit atheists to Christianity by the way, but rather to get lukewarm Christians 'off the fence' so to speak.

Looking at it from this new perspective, I can't help but wonder if Pascal was right, after all. If I'm undecided...would it be so bad to live my life as if a god existed? Pascal was pretty specific as to ''which'' god, though. He was a Christian man, and favored Christianity of course.

So, is it foolish if one is undecided, to buy into Pascal's Wager? What do you think?

I think Pascal's Wager is too deeply flawed, and ethnocentric, to be salvaged.

There are so many assumptions. For it to make sense, a god would have to exist, and then a god that specifically cares about what humans believe about that god and especially what they do while naked, and then a god that gives out punishments and rewards, and then you have to narrow it down to one iron-age patriarchal war deity out of thousands that have been believed in, and then you have to get his family tree correct such as believing he has a son with specific attributes involved with salvation of the soul and rituals to partake in, and so forth.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Paganism, Sikhism, Jainism, Shintoism, Taoism, and various indigenous beliefs, are all rich deep cultural belief structures with hundreds or in some cases thousands of years of existence and change, most of them with countless variants, and Pascal was largely unfamiliar with the vast majority of them.

I believe he knew. It is difficult to picture an intelligent man such as Pascal proposing the Wager seriously.

It must have been a joke.

Well, it was unpublished. He died before finishing it. It's more like, a set of notes that were organized together and published after his death. And he did become somewhat of a fundamentalist later in life, after he had a near-death experience.

Context is important here as well. The wager does not exist in a vacuum. It exists in a work where he went into detail as to why he thinks atheism, Islam, and some other beliefs are wrong, and that Catholicism is correct, and then presented the wager as a means to basically move existing Catholics from lukewarm Catholicism to more devout Catholicism.

I doubt it's a joke. I think it's a case of a very intelligent man beginning to speak about something outside of his scope of expertise, as he shifted from science to religion later in life. He was a lifelong Catholic who was only superficially acquainted with a small number of other belief systems.

 

[Thief]

Heard from who?

I've been on a journey for a while with my own faith beliefs...I'm a former Christian, and now an atheist. However, I'd say I'm an atheist with spiritual leanings. But, in truth...no one knows with certainty who or what a god might be, and man saying he knows this or that about who might make it to heaven, are guessing at best. I never liked that about religion, and if you're not religious...it's a good idea to not pick that bad habit up, of pretending to know 'the mind of God.'

If I know not my Father's will.....how then to perform it?

My previous quote came from scripture.
You must have missed it during your time of practice.....though I don't know how.

 

[Thief]

Given we don't have much power in deciding the person we are shaped into being, I find the notion of any eternal destiny being based on ones nature to be appalling. A psychopath, for example, does not choose to be a psychopath.

and the parable of the Sower applies here.

 

[Thief]

Even more reason to disregard anything any one says about what one must believe to get there, right?
Even more reason to disregard anything any one says about how one must act to get there, right?

So much for all your dogmatic beliefs about the angel with the sword....
I mean, if you are meant to be there, not even your guardian angel can prevent it.

To think, the last five years of your preaching your dogma all for naught.

I get a lot of frubals.

No doubt the non-believers pat you on the back.

(my guardian angel has spared me once already.
I simply don't press my luck as SOME people do)

 

[McBell]

I get a lot of frubals.

Congrats.
What does that have to do with it?
Should I be impressed because you get frubals?

No doubt the non-believers pat you on the back.

Again, what does that have to do with it?

Ah, another distraction tactic.

(my guardian angel has spared me once already.
I simply don't press my luck as SOME people do)

more empty threats?
Your god must be so proud.

Think maybe you might maybe could possibly, just this once, address the points?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

and the parable of the Sower applies here.

A sower who throws his seed on rock where it has no chance of growing is lacking as a farmer.

 

[Thief]

A sower who throws his seed on rock where it has no chance of growing is lacking as a farmer.

Read the parable again....I'm sure you do understand.
You're just trying to be coy.

 

[Thief]

Congrats.
What does that have to do with it?
Should I be impressed because you get frubals?


Again, what does that have to do with it?

Ah, another distraction tactic.


more empty threats?
Your god must be so proud.

Think maybe you might maybe could possibly, just this once, address the points?

You're just trying to be a troll.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Read the parable again....I'm sure you do understand.

The parable describes a farmer throwing seed onto a path, rocky soil, and into thorn bushes...i.e. conditions that would have been apparent to any reasonably observant farmer. It also talks about seeds being eaten by birds... i.e. a situation any reasonably responsible farmer would try to prevent.

The parable tells the story of a farmer who doesn't care whether his seeds grow into crops or not.

You're just trying to be coy.

Don't presume to tell me my motives.