Pat Robertson says Haiti under a Curse

[Autodidact]

Alright on Religion Dispatches (a good blog) I read a kind of theory as to why people like Pat Robertson say outrageous things like this. It's a way to sort of gradually lead his followers to identify more closely with him. If he can get people who agree with his religious utterances to accept and agree with a statement that the rest of society thinks is whacko, then they will identify more strongly with him. This works well for Christians, who can always say they're being persecuted for their beliefs, rather than they're crazy.

 

[Archer]

Alright on Religion Dispatches (a good blog) I read a kind of theory as to why people like Pat Robertson say outrageous things like this. It's a way to sort of gradually lead his followers to identify more closely with him. If he can get people who agree with his religious utterances to accept and agree with a statement that the rest of society thinks is whacko, then they will identify more strongly with him. This works well for Christians, who can always say they're being persecuted for their beliefs, rather than they're crazy.

Now that makes good sense! I still think he is just a few six packs short of a case

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Originally Posted by OneThatGotAway
"Once again, this is a debate. Which means that I am presenting an point of view that he finds offensive. Other reading may find it intriguing. Others may find it worth debating or researching. That is the power of debate and freewill thinnking. I may find many other religious views and opinions in this world offensive; but I am able to see that they are not chasing me away. I just take their views as simply that: Their views."

Once again, stop accusing me of chasing atheists away. Besides, where is it that I am allegedly chasing them from and to? And if debating is chasing; then I guess agreeing is bringing them. To agree on every issue defeats the purpose of debate.

How is it that you don't know if your views don't chase athiests away? After all, you follow the same God as I do. What impact have your viewpoints have on athiests? Freewill debates allow all people from all walks of life to think on their own. And I welcome that freedom of speech and debate. ---- OneThatGotAway

Ya just don't get it, do ya!
Many atheists have come not to believe in God because of the horrific, scary and entitled way in which God is presented. God is, first and foremost, hospitable. Jesus met people where they were and allowed them to be who they were. God is also ultimately loving, merciful, and kind.

And you just don't get it also! I am not here to prosletyze anyone here including atheists. I am here to present a view no matter how horrific it may be. Besides, I think the Christians (not the athiests) stands to be 'scared away'. Because, atheists fear no one that they believe don't exist. And I did not present God this way, I've only shown what many athiests already know about God. I just chose not to run away from the facts of the Holy Bible. Many atheists are already disgusted at knowing that the God of Abraham, Yitzchak, and Ya'oqob already allows Shatan (Satan) to wreak havoc on this earth. Many of them know that if God is all powerful, then why did/do he allow the devil and other evil men to rape women and murder babies? You just don't get it: Many people (including athiests) were turned off by reading the Holy Bible (especially the Book of Job) long before you or I were born.

True God is loving and merciful. However, it is written that he is also holy; and will not tolerate evil to ruin mankind. I present the anger and horrible judgements that is written about God. For decades, many people (Buddhists, Taoist, Wiccans, agnostics, Catholics, Christians, and athiests) already have read and they know about this fact. And they are turned off by reading theses facts in the Holy Bible. Don't shoot the researcher; take this matter up with God. Jesus loves and saves. But, like God (his Father) Jesus condemns and did not allowed the sinner to continue in sin; he too preached repentance. To say otherwise is to ignore Jesus speech of "weeping and gnashing of teeth". The following is a record of the wrath of Jesus concerning the wicked people of the earth:

[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ---- Matithyahu (Matthew) 8:12

[41] The Son of [Yahweh] shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[49] So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
[50] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
---- Matithyahu (Matthew) 13:41-42, 49, 50

[13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[14] For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
[15] Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in [his] talk.
---- Matithyahu (Matthew) 22:13-15

[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ---- Matithyahu (Matthew) 24:51

[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Yitzhak, and Yioqab, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of [YAHWEH], and you [yourselves] thrust out. ---- Luke 13:27-28

yet you present God as wrathful, indignant, petulant, demanding, conditional...shall I Go on? Nobody can approach a God like this! If God isn't approachable, what good is God to us? This isn't about a system of belief, it's about building relationships -- reconciling one with another. How can we reconcile with the "angry God" of Jonathan Edwards???

Like I said, many religious people (including atheists) have already read these words in the Holy Scripture and are disgusted by them. But don't take my word for it....

[22] For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
[23] If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. ---- Mark 4:22-23

God unapproachable? That is were you are wrong. Many non religious people (and non-Jews/Christians) have and will approach God knowing that he is loving towards the good and wrathful towards the wicked. Because they chose to give God the benefit of the doubt against the false accusations that was railed against him. And many have chosen/will choose to follow the advice of the Book of Job and trust God in that He will prove that he is righteous and justifiable in why he allowed things like this to happen on the earth. And like Job, many people in the past and today are able to enjoy a trusting relationship with God. And that relationship can continue so as long as mankind love God and hate evil. If a man choses to love evil; then why complain about it's consequences?

I prefer to present God as ultimate, Love, ultimate Hospitality, ultimate Assurance, ultimate Affirmation of the Self and Humanity. Because that's really who God is, after all. The Bible is not a textbook. It's an historical record of the theology of God's people. What the ancients knew about God has transformed into what we know about God, in light of our own experiences. The world needs less Pat Robertsons and Fred Phelpses, and more Mother Teresas and Jimmy Carters. Personally, I believe that Mother Teresa embodied more who God is than Pat Robertson could ever, ever hope to. I'd be willing to bet that most atheists here -- if persuaded to believe that God exists -- would be more persuaded by Mother Teresa than by Pat Robertson.

I prefer to present everything (loving and wrathful) of what is written about God as both loving good and punishing evil. Because once you rid the world of evil; then (and only then) can Heaven and Earth enjoy ultimate eternal bliss. To ignore what is written about the wrath of God is to insult the intelligence of the reader. What the ancients knew about God is the same knowledge of what we know about God today:

[5] And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith YAHWEH of hosts.
[6] For I [am] YAHWEH, I CHANGE NOT; therefore ye sons of Yioqab are not consumed.
[7] . Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept [them]. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith YAHWEH of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
---- Malaeky 3;5-7 :clap

I believe the world need every man and woman who preaches the Word of God, including people like Pat Roberston. However, I think some of his teachings and commentaries should be debated and thus curtailed. I don't think anyone can measure the positive impact that Pat Robertson or Mother Teresa has brought to the world. :candle:

But to all curious and enthusiast out in the world (Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, Agnostics, Atheists); Continue to be curious and open-minded and researched everything for yourselves. Answer the riddle that many have pose to each other: How can God be righteous and just and wrathful?

Shabbath Shaluum

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Originally Posted by OneThatGotAway
I already know that. That is why I said earlier that the evil ones were the focus of his wrath, not the good. But you don't know if all of Haiti are good people. Some of them may be evil. Only God knows which ones are evil enough to deserve this kind of punishment. Do evil people deserve earthquakes? God thought so; and he acted.
---- OneThatGotAway

And too bad for the poor orphans, missionaries, and anyone else who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, as your God is too mean or too powerless to protect them when bad people get on his nerves.

In the Bible, when Aedam sinned; he in effect fell under the control of the original sinner: Shatan (Satan, Devil). Who is now allow to deceive and wreak havoc on this earth. Shatan does not care about poor orphans, missionaries, and other innocent people. However, God does care; but he must allow mankind finish his journey of knowing the ultimate consequence of turning away from God and seeking to make someone else God (including themselves). This means he doesn't promise that every innocent will be shielded and rescued from the evil-doers. This is but one of cost when everyone wants to play God besides God himself: We all fall short of protecting the innocent from evil doers and mishaps. But this lesson too will be temporarily; the centuries of experience is almost over. Yet, God does not want anyone (Devil incuded) to accuse him of cutting their quest short of becoming god or seeking another god.

 

[Autodidact]

I am here to present a view no matter how horrific it may be.

Well, you've succeeded in that.

Besides, I think the Christians (not the athiests) stands to be 'scared away'. Because, atheists fear no one that they believe don't exist. And I did not present God this way, I've only shown what many athiests already know about God. I just chose not to run away from the facts of the Holy Bible. Many atheists are already disgusted at knowing that the God of Abraham, Yitzchak, and Ya'oqob already allows Shatan (Satan) to wreak havoc on this earth. Many of them know that if God is all powerful, then why did/do he allow the devil and other evil men to rape women and murder babies? You just don't get it: Many people (including athiests) were turned off by reading the Holy Bible (especially the Book of Job) long before you or I were born.

Well, that's not my take; I'm more empirical, and the evidence seems to indicate it's all a myth. However, if we do have any control over our beliefs, then I certainly would not choose to worship such

I believe the world need every man and woman who preaches the Word of God, including people like Pat Roberston.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[Autodidact]

In the Bible, when Aedam sinned; he in effect fell under the control of the original sinner: Shatan (Satan, Devil). Who is now allow to deceive and wreak havoc on this earth. Shatan does not care about poor orphans, missionaries, and other innocent people. However, God does care; but he must allow mankind finish his journey of knowing the ultimate consequence of turning away from God and seeking to make someone else God (including themselves). This means he doesn't promise that every innocent will be shielded and rescued from the evil-doers. This is but one of cost when everyone wants to play God besides God himself: We all fall short of protecting the innocent from evil doers and mishaps. But this lesson too will be temporarily; the centuries of experience is almost over. Yet, God does not want anyone (Devil incuded) to accuse him of cutting their quest short of becoming god or seeking another god.

Those whacky religionists; don't they crack you up with their magical beliefs and superstitions? They just slay me.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

[OneThatGotAway:] "It is written that God is control of everything in the earth, including earthquakes. If he is not, then he is not God."

[tumbleweed:] "To prove that God is in control of say, the earthquake in Haiti, you would have to show that it was not the result of natural plate tectonics. Since it cannot be shown that your god is in control of naturally occurring phenomena, then by your own statement, he is not God. What a relief....."

[OneThatGotAway:] "Well, the only proof that I have is His Word which records his acts and the testimony of His servants. It is written that he created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. And it is written that he controls (directly / indirectly) the earth. By faith, I believe those testimonies in the Holy Bible to be true. And thus, I can prove through the Bible that He is God. Of course, one would have to believe that the Bible is true in order for all of this to make sense."

[tumbleweed:] "There mere fact of "it is written" does not "prove" God, it is only a statement of faith, as you said " By faith, I believe those testimonies in the Holy Bible to be true.".

You may believe, through faith, that God is the cause, but observable evidence shows that the quake was a result of plate tectonics.

Faith=/=Evidence

True, but I was showing originally that "my own statements" stems from the Bible. I wasn't trying to prove the existence of God outside the context of the Holy Scriptures. I was merely making a rhetorical statement that, according to Bible, the definition of God implies that he is control of everything, including tetonic plates. Hence, my own statements do not prove the nonexistence of God. :no:

 

[tumbleweed41]

True, but I was showing originally that "my own statements" stems from the Bible. I wasn't trying to prove the existence of God outside the context of the Holy Scriptures. I was merely making a rhetorical statement that, according to Bible, the definition of God implies that he is control of everything, including tetonic plates. Hence, my own statements do not prove the nonexistence of God. :no:

Nor did I indicate that your statements prove or disprove God. Only that you cannot prove "God did it" and must rely on faith.
But is is obvious that it is your own "faith" and personal interpretations of reveled revelation that lead you to your indescribably indifferent attitude towards the suffering of others, as reflected in your anthropomorphic concept of god.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Matithyahu (Matthew)

Are you trying to impress us with Hebrew name usage?
Then it would be Matityahu or Matatyahu

---- Malaeky 3;5-7

That would be Malachi or Mal'akhi

Shabbath Shaluum

Shabbath Shalom

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Well, first I would like to say I do not view you as evil. I think you are trying to make sense of your world like everyone else. I would ask you this though. I asked this of someone else in another thread recently because it has been on my mind lately. The bible that so many seem to think is the final word of god may not be.

Thank you the complement; the feeling is mutual. While it may be true that the Holy Bible may not be the final Word of God; nevertheless, I believe these sets of books benefit mankind more than any other collection of books to date. No other book describes mankinds relationship with God in a fascinating way in which the storyline involves a living tribe: Israel. And a living place: The Holy Land of Israel. These holy books contains prophecies that have been fulfilled and prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled. These books explain key questions in life as to why is the world is this way. These books contains promises kept by God that he will restore order once and for all for mankind. Also, one of these promises is that God will preserve Israel forever. And yet, I still see Israel preserved and blessed after many attempts (for over 3,000 years) to eradicate them from the face of this earth.

3000 years ago it is possible that the people writing the torah and then later the NT were not spiritually or intellectually evolved enough to get an unbiased unfiltered understanding of what god wants or how he works. They did the best they could given their understanding of the world.

But it is possible (it is written) that these holy men were guided by God to ensure that the true words remain preserved for mankind to live and make sense of this world. True, it is possible that many men may have attemp to corrupt the Holy Scriptures through their bias and deception. Yahweh knew this would be a possibility: That is why he warned the Sons of Yishrael:

[2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YAHWEH your God which I command you.

[26] Cursed [be] he that confirmeth not [all] the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
---- Fourth Holy Book of Mashe 4:2, 27:26

You see, the Sons of Yishrael feared the curse of Yahweh that they made sure that the words stayed preserved; even if the words went against their pride; or recorded their evils and sins as a nation. God inspired these holy men to write the holy words for the world to read and believe.

If there is a god, why would he quit trying to get his points across?

But God did not quit getting his point across. He has preserved the Holy Bible to make sure that his point lasts for generations. Millions of men in this world has not address the points that God has written for the Sons of Aedam to live. Some chose not to read it because they don't care about the things written there. Some read it and found it to be offensive to their lifestyle and goals. Some read it and became afraid of how others might think of them. And others read it and believed it. But the bottom line is whether you believe the words or not: Faith is the choice. Despite all other historic and scientific research methods you may use, eventually, you have to come to the final choice: Faith. Either you believe it to be true or you don't. God has designed the book and life this way to force mankind to exercise this attribute of their lives: What you believe in (given no other hard evidence).

As the world matures would he not try again and again to get his point across, especially if it really wasn't quite right the previous times?

Actually, many believes that the world is becoming corrupt morally as time goes by. Some believes that mankinds behaviour is cyclical. Yahweh's Holy Bible presented his point that mankind will need his book for every generation. And the morality of the book has yet to be proven false, useless, or evil by the sons of Aedam. God's words are perfect the first time. And it doesn't make sense to improve perfection. God says to mankind: Cursed is he that departs from this Holy Book. He is saying that mankind will eventually destroy themselves; if they choose to destroy this book and lives opposite to its writings. Many have found out this to be true to their demise.

As our natural children mature, do we not change the way we communicate with them. Do we not give them ever increasing complexity to aid their understanding? Why wouldn't god do the same thing. I believe he would.

God doesn't change the way he communicates with the Sons of Aedam. That is why he preserve the Sons of Yishrael and his Holy Scriptures to make sure that mankind knows how to interact with him and live a holy, happy, and peaceful life on earth. The Holy Bible recorded events in the Bible which explains God's silence: There was a time when people did not want to hear the voice of God anymore; let alone come to his holy temple to behold his presence. In fact, they despised his ways and went to other false gods; while the living God was in the Temple. I mean, you could see the cloud and audibily hear his voice. That time will come again, but now the experience is to oblige mankind and instruct him to keep the words that are written. I mean if mankind refuse to keep the words that are already written; then what is the point to speak or make more words? The next time he speaks is for judgement on how mankind responded to his Holy Words.

Being stuck in a mindset of 2-3 thousand years ago does not seem to be a benefit to anyone imo.

Silver and gold is thousands of years old and yet they are still valuable to day as the day they were created. Ancient living is refreshing today as they were when the lifestyle was first written. Especially in a society that chose corruptable living as the model of society. When society treats the ancient Biblical morals as evil; and then treats the ancient evils as good; then Holy Bible immediately becomes relevant to those whose desire is to benefit them from the curses that is come as result of this twisted lifestyle. The lifestyle that mankind is heading towards have been done many times before for thousands of years. And God has stepped in to punished corrupt societies depending on level of corruption. I mean if AIDS broke out over 3,000 years ago, because of an alternative lifestyle: Then God justifies punishing socities like Sodom and Omarah in order to contain the disease from becoming global.

We now know that earthquakes are caused by tectonic plates shifting due to great pressures from under the earth's crust. We no longer need to ascribe a supernatural meaning to a natural earth event.

You assume that the ancient holy men were not scientists. I believe that they were but that their main concern was their obedience to Yahweh and their survival and redemption. They knew that everything (including tectonic plates) were created by God. They knew that God has set natural events in motion according to His will. They also knew the laws of gravity; engineering to build cities, ports, buildings, ships, aquaducts, etc. Why there are scientists today who still believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth and set these natural events in motion. However, they also believe that God can time certain natural events to his will: Like the parting of the Red Sea and the River Yarden.

We no longer have to believe god is wrathful.

Millions would disagree with you. It is written that is wrath is still yet to come:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; ---- Letter to Congregation in Roma 1:18

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; ---- Letter to Congregation in Roma 2:5

YAHWEH's Holy Book is warning mankind that certain prophecies and events are yet to take place. He what the Sons of Aedam are planning to do in their rebellion against his Holy Words. And thus he is giving mankind a warning of the consequences of being disobedient.

I don't see any benefit whatsoever continuing to have these beliefs, especially if they are not accurate, and are harmful.

The benefit of believing and following YAHWEH's Holy Bible is happiness, prosperity, and peace on earth; now and in the next life forevermore. And the consequences is the opposite: ultimate separation from him in darkness, eternal suffering, weeping and gnashing of teeth. Because if Yahweh removes himself from you; then he removes his attributes: Light, Love, joy, peace, holiness, wisdom, and his lovely creations as a result of his presence. Many people (including myself) believe the Holy Bible (especially the Tanakh) is relevant today as the heavens and earth itself. To say that the Holy Scriptures are outdated is to say the Earth is outdated; and thus, no longer relevant for use.

Shabbath Shaluum :angel2:

P.S. I may respond once or twice a week depending on my work schedule. So forgive me if I don't respond everyday. :sorry1:

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Nor did I indicate that your statements prove or disprove God. Only that you cannot prove "God did it" and must rely on faith.
But is is obvious that it is your own "faith" and personal interpretations of reveled revelation that lead you to your indescribably indifferent attitude towards the suffering of others, as reflected in your anthropomorphic concept of god.

I do care about the sufferings of others. But just because I write of what is written about God does not means that I don't care about the sufferings of others. Pat Robertson made such statements and yet he is not indifferent; he sends aid towards Haiti.

My personal interpretations are shared by thousands of others long before I was born regarding the Holy Bible. If you read those Holy Scriptures; then how can you interpret it otherwise?

God cares, and thus I care as well: We help those in need because we love people enough to keep them from evil and towards good. Now I call that true love. :camp:

 

[tumbleweed41]

It is written that God is control of everything in the earth, including earthquakes. If he is not, then he is not God.

Sometimes the poor and disenfranchised do get caught up in God's punishing earthquake:

The above verses testifies to Yahweh's past and future punishment of evil-doers using several ways including earthquakes.

God cares, and thus I care as well

Would you also say, "God collaterally kills the Innocent while punishing the Evil, and thus I am also justified in doing so"

 

[challupa]

Thank you the complement; the feeling is mutual. While it may be true that the Holy Bible may not be the final Word of God; nevertheless, I believe these sets of books benefit mankind more than any other collection of books to date. No other book describes mankinds relationship with God in a fascinating way in which the storyline involves a living tribe: Israel. And a living place: The Holy Land of Israel. These holy books contains prophecies that have been fulfilled and prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled. These books explain key questions in life as to why is the world is this way. These books contains promises kept by God that he will restore order once and for all for mankind. Also, one of these promises is that God will preserve Israel forever. And yet, I still see Israel preserved and blessed after many attempts (for over 3,000 years) to eradicate them from the face of this earth.

I for one an glad there are many different ideas and views to draw from and not just the Bible. Personally, I don't draw much of use from the bible. I get more from the Vedas and Buddhist writings than I do from the bible. However, everyone is different. I still see these books as men making an attempt at explaining the world around them, using the mindset of their times. I see no need to preserve Israel for it's biblical value. The Jewish people now have a homeland again, which is nice for them, but I do not see it as a requirement that a god would have to make things right.

But it is possible (it is written) that these holy men were guided by God to ensure that the true words remain preserved for mankind to live and make sense of this world. True, it is possible that many men may have attemp to corrupt the Holy Scriptures through their bias and deception. Yahweh knew this would be a possibility: That is why he warned the Sons of Yishrael:

[2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YAHWEH your God which I command you.

[26] Cursed [be] he that confirmeth not [all] the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
---- Fourth Holy Book of Mashe 4:2, 27:26

You see, the Sons of Yishrael feared the curse of Yahweh that they made sure that the words stayed preserved; even if the words went against their pride; or recorded their evils and sins as a nation. God inspired these holy men to write the holy words for the world to read and believe.

Again, I don't see these words as the inspired words of god. If they were then all of them would still be a requirement in order to worship him. They are not. Some of them have become obsolete. Did god just change his mind or did humanity mature to a place where they realized that some of these "requirements" were no longer moral?

But God did not quit getting his point across. He has preserved the Holy Bible to make sure that his point lasts for generations. Millions of men in this world has not address the points that God has written for the Sons of Aedam to live. Some chose not to read it because they don't care about the things written there. Some read it and found it to be offensive to their lifestyle and goals. Some read it and became afraid of how others might think of them. And others read it and believed it. But the bottom line is whether you believe the words or not: Faith is the choice. Despite all other historic and scientific research methods you may use, eventually, you have to come to the final choice: Faith. Either you believe it to be true or you don't. God has designed the book and life this way to force mankind to exercise this attribute of their lives: What you believe in (given no other hard evidence).

Faith is the only way you can believe that the bible is an inspired word of god. I agree with this. However, there are many older holy books that still exist too. Has god seen fit for these books to last throughout the centuries because he wanted them available as guides for humanity too?

Actually, many believes that the world is becoming corrupt morally as time goes by. Some believes that mankinds behaviour is cyclical. Yahweh's Holy Bible presented his point that mankind will need his book for every generation. And the morality of the book has yet to be proven false, useless, or evil by the sons of Aedam. God's words are perfect the first time. And it doesn't make sense to improve perfection. God says to mankind: Cursed is he that departs from this Holy Book. He is saying that mankind will eventually destroy themselves; if they choose to destroy this book and lives opposite to its writings. Many have found out this to be true to their demise.

God has changed his words in the bible and we do not live by some of the laws anymore. Perfection does not need changing, yet we do see changes. I do not see this world as more corrupt or in a moral decline. I see this world finally seeing through some of the superstitious beliefs about what god does or does not want and finally being free to live life instead of living all your life so when you die you can have eternal life. Yahweh was initially the warrior god of the Hebrews. When Abraham turned to that god and made his religion monotheistic, the Hebrew people had a great deal of trouble agreeing to this change. For example, Yahweh being the warrior god was not considered the god to pray to for growing of the crops which was the job of their god of fertility. We can see the repercussions of their warrior god becoming their one and only god. People feel much more inclined to fight for god and force others to see things their way. We had 1500 years of that with Christianity where burning witches and other methods of torture were the norm. The only requirement for these instruments of torture were that they had to be blessed by a priest before they could be used. This was done by a church that took their guidance from the bible. Was that god's intent? If that god was Yahweh, probably. However, I don't believe that god is responsible for the writing of the bible because in one part he tells us that jealousy is wrong and yet he says he is a jealous god. Why is that?

God doesn't change the way he communicates with the Sons of Aedam. That is why he preserve the Sons of Yishrael and his Holy Scriptures to make sure that mankind knows how to interact with him and live a holy, happy, and peaceful life on earth. The Holy Bible recorded events in the Bible which explains God's silence: There was a time when people did not want to hear the voice of God anymore; let alone come to his holy temple to behold his presence. In fact, they despised his ways and went to other false gods; while the living God was in the Temple. I mean, you could see the cloud and audibily hear his voice. That time will come again, but now the experience is to oblige mankind and instruct him to keep the words that are written. I mean if mankind refuse to keep the words that are already written; then what is the point to speak or make more words? The next time he speaks is for judgement on how mankind responded to his Holy Words.

Mankind do not keep the words that are written in the bible. If they did, they would be constantly confused trying to keep up with all the contradictions. We do not adhere to even half the laws in the OT, yet they are supposed to be what god wanted us to do.

 

[challupa]

Silver and gold is thousands of years old and yet they are still valuable to day as the day they were created. Ancient living is refreshing today as they were when the lifestyle was first written. Especially in a society that chose corruptable living as the model of society. When society treats the ancient Biblical morals as evil; and then treats the ancient evils as good; then Holy Bible immediately becomes relevant to those whose desire is to benefit them from the curses that is come as result of this twisted lifestyle. The lifestyle that mankind is heading towards have been done many times before for thousands of years. And God has stepped in to punished corrupt societies depending on level of corruption. I mean if AIDS broke out over 3,000 years ago, because of an alternative lifestyle: Then God justifies punishing socities like Sodom and Omarah in order to contain the disease from becoming global.

I don't believe god has stepped in to punish anyone, ever. I think we do that just fine all by ourselves. After all, we did have a good role model in the bible.

You assume that the ancient holy men were not scientists. I believe that they were but that their main concern was their obedience to Yahweh and their survival and redemption. They knew that everything (including tectonic plates) were created by God. They knew that God has set natural events in motion according to His will. They also knew the laws of gravity; engineering to build cities, ports, buildings, ships, aquaducts, etc. Why there are scientists today who still believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth and set these natural events in motion. However, they also believe that God can time certain natural events to his will: Like the parting of the Red Sea and the River Yarden.

Ancient man were only as scientific as their understanding. They did not know the things we know today. If you think that natural disasters are caused by god then why do we not see god doing wonderous things too. What would you ascribe to god that has been good? When something goes wrong why are you so quick to think god is punishing?

Millions would disagree with you. It is written that is wrath is still yet to come:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; ---- Letter to Congregation in Roma 1:18

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; ---- Letter to Congregation in Roma 2:5

YAHWEH's Holy Book is warning mankind that certain prophecies and events are yet to take place. He what the Sons of Aedam are planning to do in their rebellion against his Holy Words. And thus he is giving mankind a warning of the consequences of being disobedient.

Millions of people can be wrong. The norm is the norm, not because it's right, but because many people have been told it is right and they have never questioned it. Followed blindly in their ancestors footsteps. A wrathful god is in contradiction with an all loving, all merciful, all compassionate and all powerful being. You can't have it both ways. If he is wrathful, then he is not all loving, not all merciful, not all compassionate.

The benefit of believing and following YAHWEH's Holy Bible is happiness, prosperity, and peace on earth; now and in the next life forevermore. And the consequences is the opposite: ultimate separation from him in darkness, eternal suffering, weeping and gnashing of teeth. Because if Yahweh removes himself from you; then he removes his attributes: Light, Love, joy, peace, holiness, wisdom, and his lovely creations as a result of his presence. Many people (including myself) believe the Holy Bible (especially the Tanakh) is relevant today as the heavens and earth itself. To say that the Holy Scriptures are outdated is to say the Earth is outdated; and thus, no longer relevant for use.

I don't agree with this. There are many people of other cultures and religions that enjoy Light, love, joy, peace, holiness and wisdom and yet they do not believe in your god. How do you explain that?

 

[sojourner]

I am here to present a view no matter how horrific it may be.

The view does not have to be horrific. Why do you want to present such a view?

I think the Christians (not the athiests) stands to be 'scared away'. Because, atheists fear no one that they believe don't exist.

Scary is scary. I know of several "borderline" atheists who want desperately to believe that God is good. Unfortunately, folks like you and Pat only drive them away with a very bad taste in their mouths.

And I did not present God this way, I've only shown what many athiests already know about God.

You are presenting God this way. Many atheists only know that about God, because people like you have propagated that POV.

I just chose not to run away from the facts of the Holy Bible.

Yes, I believe you do choose to do that very thing.

Many people (including athiests) were turned off by reading the Holy Bible (especially the Book of Job) long before you or I were born.

Xy is one generation away from dying out. Why would you choose to propagate a Christianity that is judgmental and confrontational, rather than advocating consensus?

Don't shoot the researcher;

Researcher? A surface reading does not = "research."

True God is loving and merciful.

Then why not present God in that light?

and will not tolerate evil to ruin mankind.

But not by choosing condemnation over love.

But, like God (his Father) Jesus condemns and did not allowed the sinner to continue in sin;

Moses was a murderer. Jacob was a thief. Rahab was a whore. God always seems to use the sinners to accomplish God's purposes. Therein lies the theme of the Bible: That grace overturns sin -- that mercy is greater than primogeniture. Every saint has a past, and every sinner a future.

he too preached repentance.

He also practiced extravagant mercy.

To say otherwise is to ignore Jesus speech of "weeping and gnashing of teeth". The following is a record of the wrath of Jesus concerning the wicked people of the earth:

[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ---- Matithyahu (Matthew) 8:12

[41] The Son of [Yahweh] shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[49] So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
[50] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
---- Matithyahu (Matthew) 13:41-42, 49, 50

[13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[14] For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
[15] Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in [his] talk.
---- Matithyahu (Matthew) 22:13-15

[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ---- Matithyahu (Matthew) 24:51

[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Yitzhak, and Yioqab, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of [YAHWEH], and you [yourselves] thrust out. ---- Luke 13:27-28

To say otherwise is to weigh the relative importance of scripture -- like Jesus did. Ever read the passages that use the formula, "You have heard it said, but I tell you...?" You have heard it said that Jesus condemns sinners. But I tell you that Jesus came to save sinners.

God unapproachable? That is were you are wrong. Many non religious people (and non-Jews/Christians) have and will approach God knowing that he is loving towards the good and wrathful towards the wicked. Because they chose to give God the benefit of the doubt against the false accusations that was railed against him. And many have chosen/will choose to follow the advice of the Book of Job and trust God in that He will prove that he is righteous and justifiable in why he allowed things like this to happen on the earth. And like Job, many people in the past and today are able to enjoy a trusting relationship with God. And that relationship can continue so as long as mankind love God and hate evil. If a man choses to love evil; then why complain about it's consequences?

And many will also be turned away. Yet, we're told that the loss of even one is unacceptable to God.

What the ancients knew about God is the same knowledge of what we know about God today:

No it isn't. Theology has developed.

Because once you rid the world of evil; then (and only then) can Heaven and Earth enjoy ultimate eternal bliss.

If many are consigned to eternal damnation with their sin unresolved, is that not a perpetuation of evil?

I believe the world need every man and woman who preaches the Word of God, including people like Pat Roberston.

Pat doesn't usually do that, IMO. Pat preaches the gospel according to Pat.

I don't think anyone can measure the positive impact that Pat Robertson or Mother Teresa has brought to the world.

Kind of like mentioning Hitler and Mr. Rogers in the same vein...

 

[Autodidact]

Sojourner: Would you call yourself a Universalist?

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner: Would you call yourself a Universalist?

No. I call myself a Christian. "Universalist" (capital U) is a bit different. However, I am a universalist Christian (small u).