Paths - Which Are You On?

[viole]

Did you learn about Jesus from the Bible? Or did you learn about the Jesus taught by people?
Name one bad thing about Jesus.
What don't you like about him, other than that he does not agree with the things you think you wish to do?

I don't know. With all due respect, He looks boring to me. Like everyone always thinking to be right. And His flavour of morality, especially sexual morality, is probably the most boring thing in the Universe. As boring as Mother Teresa, or anyone I would expect to meet up there.

And His presumption of having sacrificed Himself for all humanity is pretty lame. I mean, staying dead fro there days is not much of a sacrifice. I could not possibly take Him seriously.

But He is not the only one. I suppose all interesting people (Einstein, or Feynman, for instance) will not be there.

And eternal life is threatening, at any rate. I mean, what do you there all that time? Can you sin, and have some fun? Would I have the free will to do that? Or would I cause another cosmic Fall?

Nope. It would be terrible enough if that is restricted to, say, 1 million years, but eternity is just torture.

Do you have, at least, the opportunity to terminate yourself up there when boredom has become unbearable? Without that guarantee, the destruction scenario is the most desirable for me. By far. At least I have a choice.

So, when you sell the path away from destruction, you sound to me like those people who sell what I consider a miserable life (no alcohol, no meat, no smoke, no unhealthy food, lots of exercise) so that you live longer (miserably). In other words: they sell me misery so that I can enjoy more of it.

Ciao

- viole

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Jesus spoke of two roads - one narrow, and one broad.
One leads to destruction. One leads to life Matthew 7:13, 14.

What path are you on?
Where is it leading? Is there a final destination?
Hoping @RayofLight wwill share in this discussion.

I go where my feet take me.

 

[InChrist]

I don't know. With all due respect, He looks boring to me. Like everyone always thinking to be right. And His flavour of morality, especially sexual morality, is probably the most boring thing in the Universe. As boring as Mother Teresa, or anyone I would expect to meet up there.

And His presumption of having sacrificed Himself for all humanity is pretty lame. I mean, staying dead fro there days is not much of a sacrifice. I could not possibly take Him seriously.

But He is not the only one. I suppose all interesting people (Einstein, or Feynman, for instance) will not be there.

And eternal life is threatening, at any rate. I mean, what do you there all that time? Can you sin, and have some fun? Would I have the free will to do that? Or would I cause another cosmic Fall?

Nope. It would be terrible enough if that is restricted to, say, 1 million years, but eternity is just torture.

Do you have, at least, the opportunity to terminate yourself up there when boredom has become unbearable? Without that guarantee, the destruction scenario is the most desirable for me. By far. At least I have a choice.

So, when you sell the path away from destruction, you sound to me like those people who sell what I consider a miserable life (no alcohol, no meat, no smoke, no unhealthy food, lots of exercise) so that you live longer (miserably). In other words: they sell me misery so that I can enjoy more of it.

Ciao

- viole

I think you are sadly clueless concerning the eternal, spiritual realm. It will be exquisite.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's hearsay since not one word of anything is purported to have said was written down until decades after he died.

True. All of the NT came by way of oral tradition.

 

[Trailblazer]

It wasn't much of a payment if he got what he gave right back.

True. In that case it was not a payment at all.

 

[Bird123]

Should I believe you, or the son of God?
Guess which I pick.

I do not ask anyone to Believe. God will not ask anyone to Believe. It has never ever been about Believing. God places knowledge around us all. I simply copy God by placing knowledge in the world.

Control is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. Placing Knowledge and Truth in the world is not control. Each must Discover for themselves which are the best choices.

Accepting and Believing has never been Discovering. Knowing has always been better than believing. Believing has never been knowing.

Still, it is very important for each to choose their own path. Lessons are learned better when one does.

I too am a son of God just like every male in this world. Of course, daughters of God are equal to all those sons. As children of God, we are all Special. We are all Important.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[nPeace]

@nPeace , how would you describe your path?

It's rocky, and a bit grassy in the middle.

Seriously though...
I would say, I did not create a path, but I am trying to follow the one described here, and stay on it, as it is the one that leads to life.
I suppose that would make it my path.

Since there is only one path which leads to life, I believe one has to be able to identify it, and then follow, and remain on it, because turning aside to the left or right, takes one off that path.

 

[nPeace]

I don't know. With all due respect, He looks boring to me. Like everyone always thinking to be right. And His flavour of morality, especially sexual morality, is probably the most boring thing in the Universe. As boring as Mother Teresa, or anyone I would expect to meet up there.

You met him!!!
Noooooooo Come on. Don't believe what they tell you.

How is it boring to have sex with one's marriage mate?
Oh wait. Some people have a sick idea of fun, and what's enjoyable.
Do you know some people find pleasure in pain? Isn't that twisted?
What's wrong with normal?

And His presumption of having sacrificed Himself for all humanity is pretty lame. I mean, staying dead fro there days is not much of a sacrifice. I could not possibly take Him seriously.

You don't understand... but what does that have to do with living.
I too have considered some things foolish... until I understood them.
I realized how easily we could dismiss something of value, simply because of our ignorance.

Have you ever seen a movie where people laughed ar this structure someone built, only to latter realize it was what they needed to survive.
Happens all the time.

But He is not the only one. I suppose all interesting people (Einstein, or Feynman, for instance) will not be there.

And eternal life is threatening, at any rate. I mean, what do you there all that time? Can you sin, and have some fun? Would I have the free will to do that? Or would I cause another cosmic Fall?

Okay. I see what you mean. You want a world that's a mess, like today, because people want to do whatever.
Well I think you are getting your reward now.
So I understand. Enjoy your few remaining years.

Nope. It would be terrible enough if that is restricted to, say, 1 million years, but eternity is just torture.

Do you have, at least, the opportunity to terminate yourself up there when boredom has become unbearable? Without that guarantee, the destruction scenario is the most desirable for me. By far. At least I have a choice.

So, when you sell the path away from destruction, you sound to me like those people who sell what I consider a miserable life (no alcohol, no meat, no smoke, no unhealthy food, lots of exercise) so that you live longer (miserably). In other words: they sell me misery so that I can enjoy more of it.

Ciao

- viole

Yep. You get to choose. You are right. It's your choice. Wow.

A Question. Would you say you are joyful, and you know what joy is?

 

[nPeace]

True. In that case it was not a payment at all.

That makes absolutely no sense Trailblazer.
You said you are a person of logic.
Consider this...
Does the guy that pays the ransom of a million dollars for a hostage, not pay the ransom because he gets back a million dollars... and more?
Think about it.

Jesus paid a corresponding ransom - the life of a perfect human.
He gained the life of an incorruptable immortal spirit, and more.

 

[viole]

I think you are sadly clueless concerning the eternal, spiritual realm. It will be exquisite.

Well, if i ask two Christians, I usually get two different descriptions. So, my thinking compels me to infer that you guys do not have a clue either, of what it will look like.

On top of that, what someone might consider exquisite, could be very well be considered nauseating by me. So, that does not help me one bit. Actually, that happens frequently with things that the masses consider exquisite. Therefore, if Heaven is designed for the appreciations of the masses, like a sort of metaphysical Club Mediterranne, then it will definitely not be for me.

Ergo if there is no possibility for self elimination in heaven, I will definitely play it safe and go for destruction. There is really no doubt about that.

ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

How is it boring to have sex with one's marriage mate?

That is the crux of the problem. I don’t know. It is not now, and maybe it will not be in the next 100 years, but what about having sex with the same person for something north of

100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

years?

i mean, people are ready to die for their spouse at wedding day, promise eternal love without any doubt, and to kill each other for who gets the tv at divorce day. After a few years. Which should make any present enthusiasm about our relationship to be taken with a grain of salt.

Oh wait. Some people have a sick idea of fun, and what's enjoyable.
Do you know some people find pleasure in pain? Isn't that twisted?
What's wrong with normal?

Well, it could be twisted, but that is what they are. And I would not find it optimal to spend eternity with bigots who frown upon that, as if that were their business.

so, nope, sorry. I would spend eternity having an argument with them.

I too have considered some things foolish... until I understood them.

Have you tried with evolution by natural selection?

Have you ever seen a movie where people laughed ar this structure someone built, only to latter realize it was what they needed to survive.
Happens all the time.

Yes, but I am not sure how that help your case. Such arguments are catch all. That means, whatever you believe, there is an instantiation of that which could be used against that belief. For all beliefs.

and by the way, did you have vaccines in mind?

Okay. I see what you mean. You want a world that's a mess, like today, because people want to do whatever.
Well I think you are getting your reward now.
So I understand. Enjoy your few remaining years.

No idea what you mean. I am from Sweden. Last time I checked, did not look like a mess at all. Actually, Scandinavia always score highest when it comes to happiness, and quality of life. Despite, or because of, its huge levels of secularism, sexual freedom, gay marriages, abortion and all.

so, what you call mess is just what you do not like. Well, what you like is what I do not like. A boring place full of potentil bigots judging who goes in bed with. As if it were their business. No thanks. The sole idea to spend eternity with them will be worse than hell.

Yep. You get to choose. You are right. It's your choice. Wow.

It is a no brainer, really. Between oblivion and eternal boredom? Are you joking? As Mark Twain said, I have been dead for a past eternity and I did not suffer any inconvenience because of that.

but again, can I self terminate in heaven? If yes, I might reconsider.

A Question. Would you say you are joyful, and you know what joy is?

Of course. I consider myself also very happy. I have also been lucky enough to have had an incredibly easy life where I could do what I most love. If I compare myself with the rest of humanity, now and in the past, that is nothing short of having been like having won the lottery 12 times.

but why the question? Do you think you cannot be joyful, nor happy, if you do not aspire, nor believe, in eternal life?

Are you a closeted nihilist?

remember, only finite things can have value. If they are infinite, they have no value.

ciao

- vioke

 

[Trailblazer]

That makes absolutely no sense Trailblazer.
You said you are a person of logic.

If Jesus rose from the dead that would mean that He never really died for our sins, so logically speaking, how is his death payment for our sins?

Jesus paid a corresponding ransom - the life of a perfect human.
He gained the life of an incorruptable immortal spirit, and more.

That is what I believe because I do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
I believe that His spirit (soul) ascended to heaven when he died on the cross.

 

[nPeace]

That is the crux of the problem. I don’t know. It is not now, and maybe it will not be in the next 100 years, but what about having sex with the same person for something north of

100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

years?

Is sex the only thing that is pleasurable?
I think your imagination needs to extend. I think right now it is very much confined to this life, where we are like prisoners, and have a very limited view of what really living is like.
I can think of so many things which we would not be able to exhaust in millions of years.
Then there are some people who never stop talking. I can imagine the pleasant conversations that will be endless.
Don't you have friends you look forward to seeing, and conversing with, the next day, and the next...?
No way Viole. The real life can never be boring. Hiking, Biking... Loads of fun that makes life exciting!

i mean, people are ready to die for their spouse at wedding day, promise eternal love without any doubt, and to kill each other for who gets the tv at divorce day. After a few years. Which should make any present enthusiasm about our relationship to be taken with a grain of salt.

In your world, I can understand why you would choose destruction.
I don't see that in the present paradise. So it's easy for me to see a totally different world, than you would envision.

Well, it could be twisted, but that is what they are. And I would not find it optimal to spend eternity with bigots who frown upon that, as if that were their business.

so, nope, sorry. I would spend eternity having an argument with them.

Yes. Keeping society clean in every way should be everybody's business... imo.

Have you tried with evolution by natural selection?

I already understand that. Which makes it all the more foolish. Even scientists laugh at it.

Yes, but I am not sure how that help your case. Such arguments are catch all. That means, whatever you believe, there is an instantiation of that which could be used against that belief. For all beliefs.

Sounds like the evolution belief.

and by the way, did you have vaccines in mind?

Huh? Uh. Um... No. Furtherest thing from my mind actually. Why?

No idea what you mean. I am from Sweden. Last time I checked, did not look like a mess at all. Actually, Scandinavia always score highest when it comes to happiness, and quality of life. Despite, or because of, its huge levels of secularism, sexual freedom, gay marriages, abortion and all.

so, what you call mess is just what you do not like. Well, what you like is what I do not like. A boring place full of potentil bigots judging who goes in bed with. As if it were their business. No thanks. The sole idea to spend eternity with them will be worse than hell.

Well since none of that would exist there, you wouldn't have to worry about anyone "judging who goes in bed with" whom.
Actually, I think making your choice now, is a good thing. It's actually what everyone gets to do.
If I met you at a door, I would thank you.

It is a no brainer, really. Between oblivion and eternal boredom? Are you joking? As Mark Twain said, I have been dead for a past eternity and I did not suffer any inconvenience because of that.

but again, can I self terminate in heaven? If yes, I might reconsider.

Well first things first, you don't get to go to heaven.
Secondly, one can certainly commit suicide on earth. That too is a choice. They will be plenty nigh cliffs in paradise, and no ngel is going to swoop in like Superman, and catch you.
If you intend to do that though, after being raised to life, I don't see God missing that. So you would not have to worry about that. He would leave your dust undisturbed.

Of course. I consider myself also very happy. I have also been lucky enough to have had an incredibly easy life where I could do what I most love. If I compare myself with the rest of humanity, now and in the past, that is nothing short of having been like having won the lottery 12 times.

Alright!

but why the question? Do you think you cannot be joyful, nor happy, if you do not aspire, nor believe, in eternal life?

Oh, I just was being nosy. Seriously, I was just wondering how you were feeling.
You seem like a person I would like talking to.

Are you a closeted nihilist?

No. Why do you ask?

remember, only finite things can have value. If they are infinite, they have no value.

ciao

- vioke

Sounds like a proverb. I'm just wondering how that person would know, since they are finite, and know not an inkling about infinite things.

 

[nPeace]

If Jesus rose from the dead that would mean that He never really died for our sins, so logically speaking, how is his death payment for our sins?

Please explain that logic... If Jesus rose from the dead that would mean that He never really died
How could he not have died, if he was dead?

That is what I believe because I do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
I believe that His spirit (soul) ascended to heaven when he died on the cross.

Do you believe Jesus died - that he was dead?

 

[Trailblazer]

Please explain that logic... If Jesus rose from the dead that would mean that He never really died
How could he not have died, if he was dead?

I meant that if Jesus died and then Jesus rose from the dead in that case Jesus did not stay dead, so what would have been the big sacrifice Jesus made, having been dead for only three days?

Do you believe Jesus died - that he was dead?

I believe that Jesus died physically on the cross and at that time His soul (spirit) ascended to heaven.
I believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body where He will remain and live forever.

 

[viole]

Yes. Keeping society clean in every way should be everybody's business... imo.

So, you think that what goes beyond sex with one's spouse makes society dirty? See, that is the reason I prefer destruction. Spending eternity with people thinking like that would be horrific. A complete immoral act on my soul. Cannot imagine anything worse.

I already understand that. Which makes it all the more foolish. Even scientists laugh at it.

Yes sure . Are those scientists in heaven too? Yet, another reason to stay clear from Heaven.

Sounds like the evolution belief.

Belief is applicable only to things without evidence. Like your Heaven.

Well since none of that would exist there, you wouldn't have to worry about anyone "judging who goes in bed with" whom.
Actually, I think making your choice now, is a good thing. It's actually what everyone gets to do.
If I met you at a door, I would thank you.

What do you mean? No sex?

And what choice? You have zero evidence that any of your claims are true.

This is what Christianity is, in a nutshell: make up a disease (sin), and sell a product that cures it (Jesus). Without a shred of evidence accompanying the claim.

In my eyes that is not significantly different from trying to sell snake oil. So, the choice is obvious. A no brainer, really.

No. Why do you ask?

Well, nihilists see no meaning in an ultimately pointless existence. Religion is the instrument that people made up to circumvent that. Ergo, I suspect religious people, in particular Christians, are closeted nihilists. At least, most of them. The ones with too much heaven on their minds.

Ciao

- viole

 

[nPeace]

I meant that if Jesus died and then Jesus rose from the dead in that case Jesus did not stay dead, so what would have been the big sacrifice Jesus made, having been dead for only three days?

I believe that Jesus died physically on the cross and at that time His soul (spirit) ascended to heaven.
I believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body where He will remain and live forever.

I hope you see the mistake you are making.

If Jesus did not die, there would be no sacrifice.
Jesus died. He gave up his life. If he did not do so, he would be living on earth today - a man at the age of 1,999 years.
However, Jesus died, and gave up his earthly life.
God raised Jesus to life again... this time, a spiritual one. Thus Jesus is alive, having an immortal spirit life in heaven.

Therefore, there was a sacrifice - a human life equivalent to Adam's was given.

Your belief however, is against your logic, because according to your belief, Jesus did not die, but rather shed his body, and rose to heaven.
An immortal does not die, so as an immortal soul, with a mortal body, Jesus simply let his mortal body be torn from him, and laughed 'Ha Ha. You didn't kill me though.' and went to heaven saying, 'Father, those stupid people think they killed me. Ha."
That would be your behalf... according to what you wrote here... and that would explain why you don't think there was a sacrifice.

Where am I wrong? I'm listening.
By the way, there is no such thing as an immortal soul. That belief is a lie, isn't it?

Also, do you believe Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body where He will remain and live forever, from the Bible?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Jesus spoke of two roads - one narrow, and one broad.
One leads to destruction. One leads to life Matthew 7:13, 14.

What path are you on?
Where is it leading? Is there a final destination?
Hoping @RayofLight wwill share in this discussion.

You speak of destruction as if it's a bad thing. Everything in relative reality is temporary. All is eventually destroyed.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your belief however, is against your logic, because according to your belief, Jesus did not die, but rather shed his body, and rose to heaven.
An immortal does not die, so as an immortal soul, with a mortal body, Jesus simply let his mortal body be torn from him, and laughed 'Ha Ha. You didn't kill me though.' and went to heaven saying, 'Father, those stupid people think they killed me. Ha."
That would be your behalf... according to what you wrote here... and that would explain why you don't think there was a sacrifice.

Where am I wrong? I'm listening.

All of the above is right. An immortal soul cannot does not die, so as an immortal soul, with a mortal body, Jesus simply let his mortal body be torn from him and He ascended to heaven where His soul took on a spiritual body.

So what was the sacrifice, since all physical bodies die and all physical bodies have immortal souls that go to heaven?

By the way, there is no such thing as an immortal soul. That belief is a lie, isn't it?

No, that belief is the truth. ALL human souls are immortal, not only the soul of Jesus.

Also, do you believe Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body where He will remain and live forever, from the Bible?

Yes, from the Bible, but also according to my Baha'i beliefs.

 

[nPeace]

So, you think that what goes beyond sex with one's spouse makes society dirty? See, that is the reason I prefer destruction. Spending eternity with people thinking like that would be horrific. A complete immoral act on my soul. Cannot imagine anything worse.

Um. Every reasonable person know that promiscuity is bad for society.
Casual sex can impact your physical and emotional health in ways that you may not suspect
Can promiscuity threaten your longevity? The short answer is yes. Having a large number of sexual partners has been linked to poor sexual health and decreased longevity. Why? The more sexual partners you have, the greater your risk for sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) like HIV/AIDS and other life-threatening conditions like prostate cancer, cervical cancer, and oral cancer.

"Promiscuity is one example of a class of high-risk behaviors,” says Deirdre Lee Fitzgerald, PhD, assistant professor of psychology at Eastern Connecticut State University in Willimantic. “It is comparable to, and may coincide with, behaviors such as heavy drinking, gambling, and other thrill-seeking behaviors like driving too fast."
I guess some people prefer what's bad for us.

Yes sure . Are those scientists in heaven too? Yet, another reason to stay clear from Heaven.

What's with this whole heaven thing!!!

Belief is applicable only to things without evidence. Like your Heaven..

Really?
Then why not call up the science community, and tell them they should consider suing every science journal, encyclopedia, and other literature, that use the phrase "scientists believed" or "scientists once believed, or thought".

Spoiler: Scientists beliefs based on evidence

Archaeological excavations in the Qafzeh Cave in the mountain found human remains, whose estimated age is 100,000 years old. The human skeletons were associated with red ochre which was found only alongside the bones, suggesting that the burials were symbolic in nature. Previous to this discovery, scientists believed that human symbolic reasoning evolved much later, about 50,000 years ago.

Carcinisation is believed to have occurred independently in at least five groups of decapod crustaceans:
King crabs, which most scientists believe evolved from hermit crab ancestors First appearance: Late Cenozoic

Emission theory of vision – the belief that vision is caused by rays emanating from the eyes was superseded by the intro-mission approach and more complex theories of vision

The moon is much older than some scientists believe, a research team now reports.

Spinosaurus is known to have eaten fish, and most scientists believe that it hunted both terrestrial and aquatic prey. Evidence suggests that it was highly semiaquatic, and lived both on land and in water much like modern crocodilians do

Some scientists believed that modern ungulates were descended from an evolutionary grade of mammals known as the condylarths
These animals had unusual triangular teeth very similar to those of primitive cetaceans. This is why scientists long believed that cetaceans evolved from a form of mesonychid. Today, many scientists believe cetaceans evolved from the same stock that gave rise to hippopotamuses.

This is the third time I have done this, and I always get tired after posting 0.1%.

What a way to discredit science. You mean all these superseded theories in science were without evidence.

Well you can't expect them to say the science that became obsolete, can you.

What do you mean? No sex?

No immoral sex.

And what choice? You have zero evidence that any of your claims are true.

That's your belief. It is a false claim of Atheists, who ignore the evidence.

This is what Christianity is, in a nutshell: make up a disease (sin), and sell a product that cures it (Jesus). Without a shred of evidence accompanying the claim.

You are the one making false claims along with your Atheists friends, living in denial.

In my eyes that is not significantly different from trying to sell snake oil. So, the choice is obvious. A no brainer, really.

I don't buy that claim. Some can't even tell the difference between snake oil and water.

Well, nihilists see no meaning in an ultimately pointless existence. Religion is the instrument that people made up to circumvent that. Ergo, I suspect religious people, in particular Christians, are closeted nihilists. At least, most of them. The ones with too much heaven on their minds.

Ciao

- viole

Some yes. In fact many, yes.
I love the truth. Living forever is secondary... or third... or could be forth... or...
Living the truth brings me great joy and satisfaction.
Problems are a reality of life, but they don't rob me of the joy of Jehovah.
You have to live it, to know what it's like. Otherwise, all you will see is all you know... which is