"Patriarchy"

[Revoltingest]

I am all for eliminating injustices towards both genders.
What my point is in this thread is that patriarchy is an inaccurate term for the cases of female privilege.
The fact that women didnt go to war but all men were forced to be drafted was in unfair injustice that happened because of gender roles yes, but not because of "patriarchy" patriarchy had nothing to do with that.

Certainly, patriarchy works against us menfolk too, the draft (IMO) being an example. At the risk of reigniting controversy again,
if we consider society to be a mix of patriarchy & matriarchy, both influences can work against people in either gender.

 

[Me Myself]

You're right. And this doesn't mean that patriarchy connotes men are bad nor feminism connotes women are good. But that's what you've been complaining about with boys and men not getting enough attention.

Oh I do complain about injustices against male not getting enough attention. I would say simply "attention" to male and boys, but specifically, attention towards the injustices towards them because of gender. I dont think boys or men get little attention in general. It is the specific case of this injustices that get little attention.

So let me ask again to be sure we are othe same page: you do say that you blame patriarchy for gender roles in general, bith those that favor AND those that disfavor men?

 

[Me Myself]

Certainly, patriarchy works against us menfolk too, the draft (IMO) being an example. At the risk of reigniting controversy again,
if we consider society to be a mix of patriarchy & matriarchy, both influences can work against people in either gender.

Why do you think the draft has anything to do with patriarchy? Patriarchy as a term talks about male leadership, not about who goes to war.

By this I am not saying patriarchy and the draft ways are contradictory with each other BTW, I am asking what does the draft has to do with "male occupy positions of leadership in this society" ?

 

[dust1n]

I am a bit confused. Which gender inequalities do you think they think dont come from patriarchy?

I don't know. I never saw them say that all gender inequalities come from patriarchy. Some come from gender roles. Patriarchies generally play a large part in determining gender roles. So I'll assume my questions about what you said earlier aren't going to get any answers.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why do you think the draft has anything to do with patriarchy? Patriarchy as a term talks about male leadership, not about who goes to war.
By this I am not saying patriarchy and the draft ways are contradictory with each other BTW, I am asking what does the draft has to do with "male occupy positions of leadership in this society" ?

Males going off to war is a gender role stemming from the macho aspect of patriarchy (IMO),
since this goes way back to when women had far less voice in politics.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Oh I do complain about injustices against male not getting enough attention. I would say simply "attention" to male and boys, but specifically, attention towards the injustices towards them because of gender. I dont think boys or men get little attention in general. It is the specific case of this injustices that get little attention.

And on those issues I want more attention given, yes.

So let me ask again to be sure we are othe same page: you do say that you blame patriarchy for gender roles in general, bith those that favor AND those that disfavor men?

I blame our patriarchal system for legislated, mandated gender roles that hurt both women and men. "Patriarchy" itself is difficult to be blamed, since it encompasses varying degrees of power acquisition and disparity (for instance, I won't get flogged if I was a 15 year old girl in the U.S. who was raped by her stepfather, but I would if I lived in Maldives for premarital sex). However, our culture is still patriarchal in many ways that must be corrected due to the barriers it creates to the community's goals of equal opportunity and protections.

Are we clear now?

 

[crossfire]

I know and I AGREE with you. Females are excluded from a stance of leadership. this is ALL that patriarchy m peans.

Patriarchy doesnt have antyhing to do with the cases of female privilege.

Ahem. Privilege is a right granted by rulers, no? Ask yourself, who are the rulers who granted the privilege?

 

[Revoltingest]

Ahem. Privilege is a right granted by rulers, no? Ask yourself, who are the rulers who granted the privilege?

Tis a good time to point out that many men despise many men in office.
(Who elects these bozos anyway?)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Tis a good time to point out that many men despise many men in office.
(Who elects these bozos anyway?)

Senior citizens?

 

[Me Myself]

Males going off to war is a gender role stemming from the macho aspect of patriarchy (IMO),
since this goes way back to when women had far less voice in politics.

But oatriarchy as a term has nothing to do with machismo. Patriarchy explicitly means men having leadership positions. Calling anything oth than that patriarchy is expanding the term in a way at doesnt work for any other "archy"
.

The thing is it is a cultural discrimination of the genders. It is being given a male attribute in itself, when there is no reason to. People make associations with words, it is just part of what they do. If you call all gender inequality "patriarchy" and gender equality "feminism" you can bet you are making strong gender associations, regardless of whether it was or not intentional, because this is how the human brain works.

 

[Revoltingest]

Senior citizens?

Yeah...always wearing hats when they drive, or yelling at kids to get off their lawn.
Btw, you're on my lawn. Ahm'a count'n to 3. 1....2....)

 

[Me Myself]

Ahem. Privilege is a right granted by rulers, no? Ask yourself, who are the rulers who granted the privilege?

A lot of things are done by rulers. If you want to say all the privileges granted while in patriarchism are the result of patriarchism itself ( not the specific rulers) you will also make all the successes or good decisions made by those rulers to be the result of patriarchism. Which ends up being a deceiving notion.

Ultimately, even a ruler has a limited control over those he rules. Culturalities have big powers, even beyond and above the rulers. If the ruler simply operated based on the pre-existing culturality, then it is the culture that is at fault, not the ruler or "patriarchy"

 

[MysticSang'ha]

But oatriarchy as a term has nothing to do with machismo. Patriarchy explicitly means men having leadership positions. Calling anything oth than that patriarchy is expanding the term in a way at doesnt work for any other "archy"
.

The thing is it is a cultural discrimination of the genders. It is being given a male attribute in itself, when there is no reason to. People make associations with words, it is just part of what they do. If you call all gender inequality "patriarchy" and gender equality "feminism" you can bet you are making strong gender associations, regardless of whether it was or not intentional, because this is how the human brain works.

Try this on for size: Feminism fights for gender equality within patriarchal paradigms. Masculinism fights for gender equality within matriarchal paradigms.

Now, here's the million dollar question...which paradigm are we under?

 

[Revoltingest]

Try this on for size: Feminism fights for gender equality within patriarchal paradigms. Masculinism fights for gender equality within matriarchal paradigms.
Now, here's the million dollar question...which paradigm are we under?

Which tire on a motorcycle is essential?

(I remember this Zennish question from master Po on Kung Fu.)

 

[Me Myself]

Try this on for size: Feminism fights for gender equality within patriarchal paradigms. Masculinism fights for gender equality within matriarchal paradigms.

Now, here's the million dollar question...which paradigm are we under?

Try this fun exercise: click this link:

Masculism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now put ctrl+f and type matriarchy, and tell me where you find it.

Please, do so.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Which tire on a motorcycle is essential?

(I remember this Zennish question from master Po on Kung Fu.)

We could debate this all day, I think. Women voting powerful men into power to limit rights on women doesn't mean there's a matriarchal component to society. The fact that women's rights are limited due to assumptions based on male-power-and-assertiveness-and-leadership-competence and limited by a vast majority of males in political positions of power offers evidence that we live in a patriarchal paradigm.

I remember asking for evidence of matriarchy in our society. Do we have a society that is anywhere mostly matrilineal, matrifocal, and gynocratic? Do we have a majority female Congress legislating on limiting rights of men on what they can do with their testicles? Or anything similar?

I feel like we're recycling old arguments, though. Shall we dance instead?

 

[Me Myself]

We could debate this all day, I think. Women voting powerful men into power to limit rights on women doesn't mean there's a matriarchal component to society. The fact that women's rights are limited due to assumptions based on male-power-and-assertiveness-and-leadership-competence and limited by a vast majority of males in political positions of power offers evidence that we live in a patriarchal paradigm.

I remember asking for evidence of matriarchy in our society. Do we have a society that is anywhere mostly matrilineal, matrifocal, and gynocratic? Do we have a majority female Congress legislating on limiting rights of men on what they can do with their testicles? Or anything similar?

I feel like we're recycling old arguments, though. Shall we dance instead?

Oh but you are a bit confused with the focus, again, I promise it is simple and will give you a fun d'uh! Moment :

Try this fun exercise: click this link:

Masculism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now put ctrl+f and type matriarchy, and tell me where you find it.

Please, do so.

I promise to dance

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Try this fun exercise: click this link:

Masculism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now put ctrl+f and type matriarchy, and tell me where you find it.

Please, do so.

Not until you try my fun exercise first.

 

[crossfire]

A lot of things are done by rulers. If you want to say all the privileges granted while in patriarchism are the result of patriarchism itself ( not the specific rulers) you will also make all the successes or good decisions made by those rulers to be the result of patriarchism. Which ends up being a deceiving notion.

Ultimately, even a ruler has a limited control over those he rules. Culturalities have big powers, even beyond and above the rulers. If the ruler simply operated based on the pre-existing culturality, then it is the culture that is at fault, not the ruler or "patriarchy"

Then the word "privilege" is not the correct term for what you are referring to. I've highlighted in bold red below:

From wiki:

A privilege is a special entitlement to immunity granted by the state or another authority to a restricted group, either by birth or on a conditional basis. It can be revoked in certain circumstances. In modern democratic states, a privilege is conditional and granted only after birth. By contrast, a right is an inherent, irrevocable entitlement held by all citizens or all human beings from the moment of birth. Various older privileges, such as the old common law privilege to title deeds, may still exist, but be of little relevance today.[1] Etymologically a privilege (privilegium) means a "private law", or rule relating to a specific individual or institution.
Boniface's abbey of Fulda, to cite an early and prominent example, was granted privilegium, setting the abbot in direct contact with the pope, bypassing the jurisdiction of the local bishop.
In a broader sense, "privilege" can refer to special powers or de facto immunities held as a consequence of political power or wealth. Privilege of this sort may be transmitted by birth into a privileged class, membership in a particular group, or achieved through individual actions. One of the objectives of the French Revolution was the abolition of privilege. This meant the removal of separate laws for different social classes (nobility, clergy, and ordinary people), instead subjecting everyone to the same common law. Privileges were abolished by the National Constituent Assembly on August 4, 1789.
One common legal privilege in the United States is protection from the requirement to testify or provide documents in certain situations. (See subpoena duces tecum and privilege (evidence).)​

 

[Me Myself]

Then the word "privilege" is not the correct term for what you are referring to. I've highlighted in bold red below:

From wiki:

A privilege is a special entitlement to immunity granted by the state or another authority to a restricted group, either by birth or on a conditional basis. It can be revoked in certain circumstances. In modern democratic states, a privilege is conditional and granted only after birth. By contrast, a right is an inherent, irrevocable entitlement held by all citizens or all human beings from the moment of birth. Various older privileges, such as the old common law privilege to title deeds, may still exist, but be of little relevance today.[1] Etymologically a privilege (privilegium) means a "private law", or rule relating to a specific individual or institution.
Boniface's abbey of Fulda, to cite an early and prominent example, was granted privilegium, setting the abbot in direct contact with the pope, bypassing the jurisdiction of the local bishop.
In a broader sense, "privilege" can refer to special powers or de facto immunities held as a consequence of political power or wealth. Privilege of this sort may be transmitted by birth into a privileged class, membership in a particular group, or achieved through individual actions. One of the objectives of the French Revolution was the abolition of privilege. This meant the removal of separate laws for different social classes (nobility, clergy, and ordinary people), instead subjecting everyone to the same common law. Privileges were abolished by the National Constituent Assembly on August 4, 1789.
One common legal privilege in the United States is protection from the requirement to testify or provide documents in certain situations. (See subpoena duces tecum and privilege (evidence).)​

You have a semantic point any ideas as to a better word to replace the ussage?