"Patriarchy"

[WyattDerp]

This is not what the vast majority of people identifying as socialist are proposing nowadays (as you probably know).

Hahah, you just made that up, didn't you?

 

[outis]

That's a very basic logical fallacy.

Some feminists are socialists.
Some socialists are feminists.
Therefore, feminism = socialism.

Nope.

I'm the one who orginally said patriarchy wasn't the opposite of socialism... which prompted your question.

Lay off the strawmen!

 

[Alceste]

That's a very basic logical fallacy.

Some feminists are socialists.
Some socialists are feminists.
Therefore, feminism = socialism.

Nope.

Actually, there's another example of this exact same fallacy in your argument, outis.

Some capitalist societies are patriarchal.
Some patriarchal societies are capitalist.
Therefore capitalism = gender inequality.

Nope.

This one is particularly questionable, since we have almost no examples of non-patriarchal societies we could use as examples of the kind of economic system a non-patriarchal society would likely create. However, in our modern more enlightened times, with economic and political participation of women at a historic high, we're as capitalist a society as we ever were.

 

[Alceste]

So would you say for instance that the reunification of Germany amounted to a restoration of patriarchal attitudes and institutions?
The argument has of course been made but I think most people do not understand patriarchy as an antonym of socialism!
For more specific definitions of patriarchy, the facts do not agree with your "directly proportional" thesis as many factors influence equality.


No, reasonable governments can and do let professionals decide.
That is not the current trend of course since right-wingers want their meddlesome politicians to micro-manage every aspect of life. But many decisions regarding health care are thankfully still made by professionals together with the relevant stakeholders (more so in some countries than others).

You might need to be more specific here. I can't make sense of what you're saying. How did the reunification of Germany impact the status of women? If it limited their opportunities to participate in society outside the home, then yes, it would be a move back toward patriarchy to whatever extent those limits applied.

Also, what does equal opportunities for women to participate in society outside the home have to do with socialism?



The point I was making was that women were specifically excluded from the Republicans' public debate over health care issues that primarily concern women. I don't necessarily think that only women are qualified to make those public health decisions, but in a context where NOBODY is a qualified professional (IOW, the GOP debate, which was comprised of right wing politicians and male religious leaders), it is very bizarre not to at least allow women a seat at the table, and preferably leadership of the debate. Nevertheless, much of American society did not perceive this whole situation as bizarre in the extreme, and that demonstrates the persistence of deeply entrenched patriarchal attitudes.

Just as a thought experiment, imagine an all-female panel deciding on when and where men should have access to vasectomies and / or viagra, and what portion should be publicly funded, where all the testimony came from women, and none of these women had any relevant medical qualifications at all. Bizarre, right?

Outis, just for reference here are the two posts that started this off. I was sincere when I said I couldn't make sense of the first post. I don't know why you brought socialism or the reunification of Germany into it. I still don't. I asked you what you thought feminism had to do with socialism only because you brought it up. You spent a lot of time, I think, defending the view that they're basically synonyms, but I admit I didn't read it very carefully because you started off by being insulting, which is never a good sign of things to come.

I'm willing to back to the beginning and start over if you are.

How did the reunification of Germany impact the status of women?

 

[WyattDerp]

How did the reunification of Germany impact the status of women?

It lead to Angela Merkel, a tireless femin-- oh wait

 

[Sunstone]

This thread has gone for over 600 posts. Shall we at last quit dancing around the elephant in the room? I mean the one most obvious truth of patriarchy that is not being mentioned? Specifically, the fact that patriarchy means the man takes out the garbage and is responsible for the yard work? Can we at last deal with that astounding inequality? Please?

 

[outis]

your argument ... Therefore capitalism = gender inequality.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.
I argued about Elizabeth I's succession earlier (of all things!). OK.
But I did not set out to argue that "capitalism = gender inequality" or any such thing. I tried to answer a question.

If I had wanted to make this argument, I would certainly not have made it along the lines you suggest. I have previously challenged the very assumptions you used for your last strawman!
Leaving aside the least interesting assumption, I don't think it's productive to talk about "capitalism" as if we were living 160 years or even only 80 years ago.
I briefly outlined earlier how I figure changes in the economic system destroyed the material basis for patriarchy. Surely, I can't possibly be saying at the same time that the same economic system must be overturned somehow in order to deal with gender inequality!

I explained what sort of measures I figure are necessary to deal with gender inequality in addition to getting rid of patriarchy. I didn't say anything about capitalism. Improvements are needed but our economic system has accomodated such measures without any issues.

I asked you what you thought feminism had to do with socialism only because you brought it up. You spent a lot of time, I think, defending the view that they're basically synonyms

Nope.
I was saying that there are other factors that come into gender inequality than patriarchy. And I brought up socialist policies as an example.
Since I was talking about the interplay between different factors, I could not have been equating everything with everything else. The factors would all be the same!

As to the "basically" thing, I was trying to give background information with which you are apparently not familiar before going into contemporary policies. Here goes again, even more summarily:
Once upon a time, socialists were very hostile towards patriarchy and concerned with issues which are in some ways similar to some feminist issues. I'm claiming both socialism and feminism (which both have a number of factions) have attacked patriarchy for different reasons, in different ways, at different times when patriarchy manifested differently. With some overlap as you said.

I admit I didn't read it very carefully because you started off by being insulting

That was kind of obvious.

The insult was not intended.
Though I'm not surprised considering the topic, I can't say I understand exactly how you got this impression. I didn't post a silly one-liner, did I?

I'm willing to back to the beginning and start over if you are.

How did the reunification of Germany impact the status of women?

Sorry but the condition I set earlier for putting in that kind of effort is cleary not fulfilled.
As I hinted at earlier, do Google it if you interested. People much better qualified than me have written more eloquently than I could about this sutff. Of course there's more than one perspective but do you really care which one I'm partial to? It's honestly much easier to Google this than your vague question about socialism and women's lives outside the home.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Well, the oxford dictionary also includes the father being the leader of the household and heritage going by fathers name.

Feminism then adds a lot of things to the concept that were never part of such concept.

That is my complain.

Pretty sure that this is the strawman that some of the posters here are trying to remove. Dictionaries can be wrong, you know.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

This thread has gone for over 600 posts. Shall we at last quit dancing around the elephant in the room? I mean the one most obvious truth of patriarchy that is not being mentioned? Specifically, the fact that patriarchy means the man takes out the garbage and is responsible for the yard work? Can we at last deal with that astounding inequality? Please?

But some of us like doing yardwork.

Or were you just joking around. I had forgotten about your twisted sense of humor...

 

[Mathematician]

I was assaulted in a dance club once. Some guy thought it was okay when he came up behind me while I was dancing to pull me against him, reach around and shove his hand between my legs. I stepped on his toe with my heel, turned around and back handed him. Security came over to pull me off him. He was easily 6'3" tall, and I'm 4"11", but I didn't care at that point about height difference or how risky hitting him was after the incident. What he did was a legitimate assault, and I was doing what I could to defend myself.

I was wondering if I was going to be thrown out of the club, but security thought I wasn't a threat. They didn't think he was, either, since he was allowed to stay.

Somebody just walking up and grabs me between my legs? That isn't a scenario that only requires a polite but emphatic "no". That's a clear assault, and I treat it as such. We don't tell children that if somebody touches them that all they need to do is tell the perpetrator to stop and THEN it becomes problematic. It's an attack.

Then basically women are just as much perpetrators of sexual violence as men and the whole notion of a rape culture collapses like a bridge of cards.

 

[Alceste]

Then basically women are just as much perpetrators of sexual violence as men and the whole notion of a rape culture collapses like a bridge of cards.

Eh? You get groped between the legs by random strange women? Where are you living? South West England?

 

[Mathematician]

Eh? You get groped between the legs by random strange women? Where are you living? South West England?

It's a common occurrence at bars and clubs. If the woman is considered fat, there's even a term around here for it: 'tank shot.' Based on the word tank which is a derogatory word for overweight female.

 

[Alceste]

It's a common occurrence at bars and clubs. If the woman is considered fat, there's even a term around here for it: 'tank shot.' Based on the word tank which is a derogatory word for overweight female.

Eh. Who knew?

I hope we can agree that is a sexual assault, and is not OK, even when it happens to a woman.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So does anyone have a problem with, "Women and children First" when the boat is sinking and life rafts are in short supply?

 

[Alceste]

So does anyone have a problem with, "Women and children First" when the boat is sinking and life rafts are in short supply?

I have a problem with not having enough life rafts.

 

[dust1n]

It's not what Me Myself does.
a) He uses several definitions.
b) He did not insist on obsolete definitions (or at least not in the stuff you quoted - I didn't read most of the thread).
c) If anything, his preferred definition (as best as I can make it) agrees more with some feminist texts than historical texts.

Hey guy who just jumped in 600 posts well into the conversation, perhaps you might want to read the thread since the people involved have been here talking for like 2 or 3 weeks.

Are you aware that "history part" in the post you quoted refers to a Wikipeadia article about the concept and not to etymology?

I'm sorry, you are going to have to give me a post number or something. I've quoted about a hundred or so posts, and plenty of them had Wikipedia articles in them.

 

[dust1n]

Then basically women are just as much perpetrators of sexual violence as men and the whole notion of a rape culture collapses like a bridge of cards.

I'm not sure it qualifies for sexual violence if you are defending your genitals from a stranger.

 

[dust1n]

So does anyone have a problem with, "Women and children First" when the boat is sinking and life rafts are in short supply?

Yea, I'd prefer there to be adequate amount of boats, but in the event...

I certainly don't want to child to die. And I don't want to personally responsible for making an orphan... so... I'd take one for the team. I don't anticipate being on a boat anytime soon.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I don't anticipate being on a boat anytime soon.

I would not go on a cruise if it was free. :no:

 

[Sunstone]

Then basically women are just as much perpetrators of sexual violence as men and the whole notion of a rape culture collapses like a bridge of cards.

WTF? Could you explain how defending yourself against sexual assault makes you the perpetrator of sexual violence?