"Patriarchy"

[Me Myself]

1) I won't do your homework for you. You are more than capable of searching for free ebooks if they are available. If not, I highly suggest if you truly are interested in putting any time in to researching actual feminist writers, that you'll invest cash into it too. Until then, all you're going by is second-hand sources.

2) Either you are not typing in effective search terms for feminist discussions on youtube or you are being deliberately obtuse.

3) Your worry about the acceptance in media marketing is due to prevailing attitudes that arise from patriarchy (male=automatons, female=weak and helpless). Again.

Well, then dont complain when people dont get feminism if you as a promoter dont care on promoting it even to people who would actually check the info

I dont get point 3. I saw a feminist complaining on violence against women in a superbowl commercial just becauae she was tackled and then got up as if nothing. If this had happened to a dad instead of a mom, no one would have complained, and honestly. NO ONE SHOULD. Its fiction.

 

[Alceste]

To be more specific, Mystic said that the gender protrayal of the woman as weak and the man as strong steams from patriarchy, and that women first also come from patriarchy(this also said from alceste who said this is completely only because MEN "think" women want this) and similarly on the cultural impacts of a male striking a woman being worst than the other way around.
.

I did not say anything of the sort. We are all, men and women, indoctrinated with patriarchal values and gender roles. You were blaming women and / or feminism for a day you missed lunch because your teacher invoked "ladies first". "Ladies first" is a patriarchal concept, whether invoked by a woman or a man. Most often, men are simply behaving in whatever way they are expected to behave, and women too.

This is such a petty side track, though, and it's starting to get on my nerves. You missed lunch at school because the girls ate it all. Boo hoo. Big deal. Count yourself lucky you didn't have acid thrown in your face or get shot in the head just for going.

 

[Me Myself]

You have complained that feminists aren't doing enough about domestic abuse of men in a multitude of posts, including this thread, and tried to use your complaint to establish that feminism is not really about equality. The part of the caricature that deals with your argument is the complaint that gay marriage advocates aren't doing enough about problems in straight marriages, so they don't really care about marriage.

I never complained thay feminism doesnt do anything in favor of male domestic abuse. I said it is natural that they dont do so because the battle injustice against women, but that then it would be reasonable to have a movement that combats injustice against males, given that feminism wont check on that.

If you can find a post where I specifically say that IT IS WRONG of feminism to not tackle abuse against male, ...I dont know, I do some sort of penitence maybye?

 

[Me Myself]

I did not say anything of the sort. We are all, men and women, indoctrinated with patriarchal values and gender roles. You were blaming women and / or feminism for a day you missed lunch because your teacher invoked "ladies first". "Ladies first" is a patriarchal concept, whether invoked by a woman or a man. Most often, men are simply behaving in whatever way they are expected to behave, and women too.

This is such a petty side track, though, and it's starting to get on my nerves. You missed lunch at school because the girls ate it all. Boo hoo. Big deal. Count yourself lucky you didn't have acid thrown in your face or get shot in the head just for going.

Wow. Qute me a post where I blame feminism flr that.

What the heck do you d to my osts in your head? O.0

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Well, then dont complain when people dont get feminism if you as a promoter dont care on promoting it even to people who would actually check the info

I gave you many sources to start with. It's not my job to do your homework for you. Saying that I don't care enough is absurd. I suggest that your efforts have been far from thorough and that you are just wanting to be hand-fed.

I only do that for infants, not grown men. You are more than capable of making a concerted effort to look up material on all the writers I mentioned earlier.

I dont get point 3. I saw a feminist complaining on violence against women in a superbowl commercial just becauae she was tackled and then got up as if nothing. If this had happened to a dad instead of a mom, no one would have complained, and honestly. NO ONE SHOULD. Its fiction.

Are you talking about the Betty White Snickers commercial that effectively reignited her television career? I thought that was hilarious, and this is the first time I ever heard anybody complain about it.

 

[Me Myself]

AND...

I did not say anything of the sort.

Yes you did:

Women don't demand any of those crappy things from men. Men simply feel like they need to do them to be considered "real men", because in a patriarchal system women are perceived as fragile, weak and helpless things that men need to govern, care for and protect. We've had very little say in constructing a social system which makes you the last into the lifeboat.

 

[Me Myself]

I gave you many sources to start with. It's not my job to do your homework for you. Saying that I don't care enough is absurd. I suggest that your efforts have been far from thorough and that you are just wanting to be hand-fed.

I only do that for infants, not grown men. You are more than capable of making a concerted effort to look up material on all the writers I mentioned earlier.



Are you talking about the Betty White Snickers commercial that effectively reignited her television career? I thought that was hilarious, and this is the first time I ever heard anybody complain about it.

Maybe, but yeah I saw a video oyoutube about a newschannel talking to a feminist that said it was women violence or something like that. I also liked it.

About the sources, sure I ll probably try to see that, and I never said it was you "job" , you certainly dont have to spread feminism's message if you dont want to to thse at are actually willing to read. I certainly dont need to read about it to want equality.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Maybe, but yeah I saw a video oyoutube about a newschannel talking to a feminist that said it was women violence or something like that. I also liked it.

One of the best commercials from recent Superbowls, IMO. Another favorite of mine was the little Darth Vader thinking he used the Force to turn the car on. Priceless. :yes:

About the sources, sure I ll probably try to see that, and I never said it was you "job" , you certainly dont have to spread feminism's message if you dont want to to thse at are actually willing to read. I certainly dont need to read about it to want equality.

No, you don't have to read anything to want something, but I suggest you ought to read their works to better understand them individually. Then taken as a whole, you'll have a better idea of the totality of feminism and the various waves throughout the last century.

And then you can, IMO, offer more legitimate arguments that are informed. I've said before that I don't agree with all feminists on various issues - even the friend of mine that I'd mentioned - but we share something very common, and that is what I embrace and appreciate: equality.

 

[Alceste]

Why do you think this question is important for THIS discussion?

If I were saying women have it better or some silly thing like that it would, but I am not. I am just saying that female privilege is not accurately described as being a form of patriarchy at all, and you'll do well to notice that I have not said there is more female privilege than male privilege, again, if I had then your question would be relevant for this subject.

So I'll repeat for clarity, what I am saying is that both female and male privilege exist, and that while some male privileges can be accurately described as a patriarchy, thats not the case for most if not all female privileges.

Again notice that that affirmation has nothing to do with comparing "who has more privileges". NO ONE SHOULD, and ALL such privileges should be abolished.

I think you're not getting it. I had a job once that involved carrying a lot of equipment around. I was the only woman on the crew. In fact, I was the only woman doing that job in the entire province. It was the best money I ever made, and I loved it.

From day one, men on the crew kept asking if I wanted help carrying things, or if I wanted them to carry them for me, or if things were too heavy or difficult, etc. And some of these guys were skinny - way less strong than I am. You understand, it was part of my JOB to heft equipment. Their "chivalry" had a mocking tone to it. They were implying I was not qualified for the job because I'm not a man. A couple months later when the crew boss tried to promote me for doing an excellent job, those men were outraged. I needed to pass a test to become a full union member, and every time I showed up to take it "the guy with the test" was nowhere to be found. When I finally bumped into that guy on a set and asked about the test, he told me he didn't want to let me take it because "some of the guys are saying you're a ****-tease", and that ended my career.

Think twice before you start moaning that women are "privileged" when men open doors for them, let them go first, etc. It may sound like a nice thought not to have to carry heavy things, but it's pretty annoying when that is supposed to be your job and your coworkers keep offering to do it for you to remind you that you are a weak, helpless female who should not have that well-paid job.

 

[Revoltingest]

I never said we lived in a matriarchy

No in this thread one did.
Let's hope it dies a quick death.

I said there is female privilege as well as male privilege and both genders are unequal in different scenarios favoring a different gender with different intensities on different areas.

When people occupy highly polarized & politically charged positions, they tend to look only at the extremes, praising one, & demonizing the other.
So we have a single positive definition of feminism (excluding the more sexist variants), against the big evil patriarchy. Even when we agree on societal
goals, there's much disagreement over what "feminism" is or isn't, & whom to blame.....cuz there must be clear blame. Heaven forbid that women would
be responsible for the power structure in this country when they've been outvoting menfolk for decades.

Now, I must declare this:
I favor: equal opportunity regardless of gender, strong women, rich women, hot women, hot men, ugly women, ugly men, education such that everyone can
reach their potential in their chosen field, no draft for anyone, female soldiers, man sluts, woman sluts, & a whole slew of egalitarian & productive thingies.
I am not a feminist, but I buy into dang near everything Mystic proclaims.....& not just cuz she ordered me to. Let's not let labels divide us.
Remember: We just be arguing mostly about how to view "feminism" fitting into this picture.

 

[Alceste]

AND...



Yes you did:

How is that quote inconsistent with my point that men in the examples of "female privilege" you gave are independently behaving in ways consistent with the patriarchal system we live in, rather than supporting the actual needs or aspirations of women? To me, it's pretty clear that is exactly what I'm saying.

At any rate, it's obviously nothing like your effort at paraphrasing it.

 

[Me Myself]

One of the best commercials from recent Superbowls, IMO. Another favorite of mine was the little Darth Vader thinking he used the Force to turn the car on. Priceless. :yes:



No, you don't have to read anything to want something, but I suggest you ought to read their works to better understand them individually. Then taken as a whole, you'll have a better idea of the totality of feminism and the various waves throughout the last century.

And then you can, IMO, offer more legitimate arguments that are informed. I've said before that I don't agree with all feminists on various issues - even the friend of mine that I'd mentioned - but we share something very common, and that is what I embrace and appreciate: equality.

I never thought nor is there any reason to think I thought all feminist think equally on the suect of feminism or how it shold be directed, what to fight, etc. Thats not a reasonable expectation for members of any ideology.

I think you're not getting it. I had a job once that involved carrying a lot of equipment around. I was the only woman on the crew. In fact, I was the only woman doing that job in the entire province. It was the best money I ever made, and I loved it.

From day one, men on the crew kept asking if I wanted help carrying things, or if I wanted them to carry them for me, or if things were too heavy or difficult, etc. And some of these guys were skinny - way less strong than I am. You understand, it was part of my JOB to heft equipment. Their "chivalry" had a mocking tone to it. They were implying I was not qualified for the job because I'm not a man. A couple months later when the crew boss tried to promote me for doing an excellent job, those men were outraged. I needed to pass a test to become a full union member, and every time I showed up to take it "the guy with the test" was nowhere to be found. When I finally bumped into that guy on a set and asked about the test, he told me he didn't want to let me take it because "some of the guys are saying you're a ****-tease", and that ended my career.

Think twice before you start moaning that women are "privileged" when men open doors for them, let them go first, etc. It may sound like a nice thought not to have to carry heavy things, but it's pretty annoying when that is supposed to be your job and your coworkers keep offering to do it for you to remind you that you are a weak, helpless female who should not have that well-paid job.

You are still seeing it as if either one is privileged or not. In that case you obviously got problems because of the thing, but a doesnt mean it isot in general a emale privilege. I dont get why you as a smart women. O generally seem to be by other arguments Ive heard from you on different subjects keep trying to make this a black or white issue. Its complex. I never said it wasnt

 

[Alceste]

No in this thread one did.
Let's hope it dies a quick death.

When people occupy highly polarized & politically charged positions, they tend to look only at the extremes, praising one, & demonizing the other.
So we have a single positive definition of feminism (excluding the more sexist variants), against the big evil patriarchy. Even when we agree on societal
goals, there's much disagreement over what "feminism" is or isn't, & whom to blame.....cuz there must be clear blame. Heaven forbid that women would
be responsible for the power structure in this country when they've been outvoting menfolk for decades.

Now, I must declare this:
I favor: equal opportunity regardless of gender, strong women, rich women, hot women, hot men, ugly women, ugly men, education such that everyone can
reach their potential in their chosen field, no draft for anyone, female soldiers, man sluts, woman sluts, & a whole slew of egalitarian & productive thingies.
Remember: We just be arguing mostly about how to view "feminism" fitting into this picture.

You and MM are the only ones so far to bring up the concept of blame.

You might want to reflect on that. Nobody is asking you to take personal responsibility for the whole edifice of our patriarchal social system. There is nothing for you to feel guilty or ashamed about because you happen to be a member of a privileged class.

If you and MM can take that to heart, you may both stop seeing all these imaginary pointing fingers, and have a better grasp on feminism into the bargain.

 

[Me Myself]

How is that quote inconsistent with my point that men in the examples of "female privilege" you gave are independently behaving in ways consistent with the patriarchal system we live in, rather than supporting the actual needs or aspirations of women? To me, it's pretty clear that is exactly what I'm saying.

At any rate, it's obviously nothing like your effort at paraphrasing it.

You can read y ourself blaming men for e attitude and women being the victims of it, and pretty directly saying "women" ( obvious generalization) dont want that. Obviously not all of them, but ere are both womeand men who perpetuate said customs. Bt you can ead your quote where you say it is men. I insist, I just dont get why you try to make it so black and white. Bth genders hae promoted and promote gender inequality on cases that both favor and disfavor their gender.

 

[Me Myself]

You and MM are the only ones so far to bring up the concept of blame.

You might want to reflect on that. Nobody is asking you to take personal responsibility for the whole edifice of our patriarchal social system. There is nothing for you to feel guilty or ashamed about because you happen to be a member of a privileged class.

If you and MM can take that to heart, you may both stop seeing all these imaginary pointing fingers, and have a better grasp on feminism into the bargain.

CONSCIOUSLY bringing the subject of blame. You re-read where I quoted you you'lll see you were talking about blame too. In a very polarized way also.

"Men" are responsible for the problem.

 

[Revoltingest]

You and MM are the only ones so far to bring up the concept of blame.

You claim that no feminist in the thread blames patriarchy?
Tis as though you don't even read anyone's posts.

 

[Alceste]

I never thought nor is there any reason to think I thought all feminist think equally on the suect of feminism or how it shold be directed, what to fight, etc. Thats not a reasonable expectation for members of any ideology.



You are still seeing it as if either one is privileged or not. In that case you obviously got problems because of the thing, but a doesnt mean it isot in general a emale privilege. I dont get why you as a smart women. O generally seem to be by other arguments Ive heard from you on different subjects keep trying to make this a black or white issue. Its complex. I never said it wasnt

It's not a privilege because I LIKE carrying things and I ENJOY difficult physical work. But I haven't got a penis, so not only am I offered help doing simple things I'm totally capable of and enjoy, I'm not ALLOWED to do it for money.

Lots of women like outdoor physical work, and lots of women certainly would prefer the income that comes from trades or operating heavy equipment to the pay they would earn in more delicate jobs.

Being perceived as weak and helpless is NOT a privilege, even if it means sometimes a guy will hold a door open for you or carry your shopping.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Alceste, if you'd like I can offer you the wall I'm currently banging my head against to ease the pain if you're interested.

 

[Alceste]

You claim that no feminist in the thread blames patriarchy?
Tis as though you don't even read anyone's posts.

Criticism =/= blame, and patriarchy =/= men.

 

[Me Myself]

Alceste, if you'd like I can offer you the wall I'm currently banging my head against to ease the pain if you're interested.

It explains a lot.