"Patriarchy"

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Its not about women shouldnt complain that much, is about the easily accessible info about feminism being mostly against stuff against pro stuff is not good propaganda for them.

Its ironic I dont know how to explain it to you, given I am trying to talk about comunication, and what ñive learned on it in college.

Look at it like the pro lifers and pro choicers propaganda. A good pro life propaganda will focus on keeping children instead of focusing on how wrong it is to abort, even if they are against abortion. Is is because it tends ot be more successful to promote something than to go against something. Pro life did do this well this way in the naming of the movement, it speaks for what they protect rather thawhat they fight.

Similarly, while it may be true women could have better role models displayed in media, it is going to be more effective to support good role models that to just tear down bad ones. Both can be done, but most of what I find is thhe trying to tear down the bad ones.

Did I explain myself better?

There are feminists out there who has had to fight really hard to have their work published or produced and for it to remain published and it isn't easy.
Where have you got his idea that we don't support each others work?

There are woman writers I want to read but I have to buy their books second hand or literally hunt down their books because they are so hard to find and are no longer published. It's unfortunate that women are marginalised in this way and saying we should do this and that about it is putting extra burdens on women which is unfair.

And we do support pro-woman representations in the media. But some of us don't have the money or privilege or power to drastically change the media.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

99.9% of the porn out there definitely is. And technically speaking, people making home movies doesn't qualify as "porn", since there is no prostitution involved. So to me "sex-positive" is like "pro-life"; a meaningless nice try. Hardly anyone is against sex, and literally nobody is against life.. so if you're pro porn, why not call it "porn-positive"? Unless you want to imply that people being against porn are against sex, and not sex-positive, that word makes zero sense.

If it helps explains it better, the anti-pornography movement had tried for a while to define itself as a central issue to feminism, but failed to legitimize the centralization. It spawned an anti-censorship movement that squarely stood against the anti-pornography crowd, and from the anti-censorship movement some more prominent thinkers emerged that wrote primarily on women's sexual freedom (e.g. Susie Bright).

Hence, describing my stance as "sex-positive" isn't meaningless, since empowering women to live free sexually without shame, stigma, with access to birth control, and with safe access to abortion, IMO falls under a few key issues to feminism. It is, in other words, supporting a woman's bodily autonomy and a woman's independence in her life choices, including her choice to enter the sex industry.

 

[Alceste]

If it helps explains it better, the anti-pornography movement had tried for a while to define itself as a central issue to feminism, but failed to legitimize the centralization. It spawned an anti-censorship movement that squarely stood against the anti-pornography crowd, and from the anti-censorship movement some more prominent thinkers emerged that wrote primarily on women's sexual freedom (e.g. Susie Bright).

Hence, describing my stance as "sex-positive" isn't meaningless, since empowering women to live free sexually without shame, stigma, with access to birth control, and with safe access to abortion, IMO falls under a few key issues to feminism. It is, in other words, supporting a woman's bodily autonomy and a woman's independence in her life choices, including her choice to enter the sex industry.

What she said.

You can find decent porn in the world, you know. You don't have to wank to the degrading stuff if that's not what you're into. There are lots of couples who upload videos, porn made by women where the women in it get to have orgasms, Japanese manga porn, porn made by more enlightened Europeans whose tastes are a little less immature and repugnant than your average American pornographer.

Just saying. I'm sad for Wyatt that he feels he has to wank to porn that depresses him because it degrades women.

 

[Koldo]

Having eyes, a brain, and, if in doubt, access to an interwebs search engine.

Do you mean to say you checked nearly 100% of the porn on the internet by yourself?
Man, you watch too much porn. Too much is too much.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

If it helps explains it better, the anti-pornography movement had tried for a while to define itself as a central issue to feminism, but failed to legitimize the centralization. It spawned an anti-censorship movement that squarely stood against the anti-pornography crowd, and from the anti-censorship movement some more prominent thinkers emerged that wrote primarily on women's sexual freedom (e.g. Susie Bright).

Hence, describing my stance as "sex-positive" isn't meaningless, since empowering women to live free sexually without shame, stigma, with access to birth control, and with safe access to abortion, IMO falls under a few key issues to feminism. It is, in other words, supporting a woman's bodily autonomy and a woman's independence in her life choices, including her choice to enter the sex industry.

Do you believe in censoring hate speech?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Do you believe in censoring hate speech?

No, I don't. As one critic put it: "Verbal purity is not social change."

I defend sexist, racist, homophobic, and anything offensive in speech. What I don't defend are sexist, racist, or homophobic policies.

Hope that makes my stance clear.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

No, I don't. As one critic put it: "Verbal purity is not social change."

I defend sexist, racist, homophobic, and anything offensive in speech. What I don't defend are sexist, racist, or homophobic policies.

Hope that makes my stance clear.

"Verbal purity" huummm no one said anything about verbal purity.
But ok, yeah it's clear.

 

[Mathematician]

Consider how many straight allies you see at LGBT rallies. Now consider how many men are at women's rights rallies. They're there, but by far they're in the minority.

As for examples, one time I volunteered at a display booth for a women's reproductive rights group. When they first heard my interest in doing so, the initial response was basically, holy crap, a man wants to be a part of this!

If speaking about American society, comparing the situation gays face each day to what women face is pretty dang insulting - especially since women aren't anymore oppressed by men than men are oppressed by women. Despite claims to the contrary, which have not been verified, women are not oppressed in the US. They are not the main victims of violence, nor is there even a big difference in gender-based violence. If talking about 20-30 year olds - which is really the only demographic that indicates the future of the job market - they make more than men financially and are more educated. They also are less likely to die at a younger age in any given category outside of child birth (go figure).

Yeah, some oppression.

 

[WyattDerp]

You can find decent porn in the world, you know.

Yeah, but I saying a million times in a row that that's not the kind I'm talking about apparently doesn't suffice to get that across. If you put all the porn in the world in a bag and grabbed something random out of it, chances are it will be degrading to women. If you deny that I envy your ignorance. Most women in the "sex industry" are not there by choice, that's just a fact, and to be blind to that is unacceptable to me --- the precious few who do it for fun and moneys will just have to frigging get over the fact that in this instance they're not the center of attention, not meant here, not relevant.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If speaking about American society, comparing the situation gays face each day to what women face is pretty dang insulting - especially since women aren't anymore oppressed by men than men are oppressed by women. Despite claims to the contrary, which have not been verified, women are not oppressed in the US. They are not the main victims of violence, nor is there even a big difference in gender-based violence. If talking about 20-30 year olds - which is really the only demographic that indicates the future of the job market - they make more than men financially and are more educated. They also are less likely to die at a younger age in any given category outside of child birth (go figure).

Yeah, some oppression.

All right, I'll bite.

I'm queer. I'm also female. Would you like to know what I face on both fronts personally?

 

[Revoltingest]

All right, I'll bite.
I'm queer. I'm also female. Would you like to know what I face on both fronts personally?

I wonder if it would be useful to for posters to tally up advantages & disadvantages they experience cuz of race, gender,
orientation, religion, physical appearance, or other important characteristic I haven't thought of. I'm thinking of avoiding
competition for who has the best victimhood cred.....just see the range of experiences out there. This thread or another?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I wonder if it would be useful to for posters to tally up advantages & disadvantages they experience cuz of race, gender,
orientation, religion, physical appearance, or other important characteristic I haven't thought of. I'm thinking of avoiding
competition for who has the best victimhood cred.....just see the range of experiences out there. This thread or another?

I'm game for another thread if you wish. I brought up both aspects of my identity because they already were compared and contrasted without input from somebody who actually experiences daily life as a queer and as a woman.

Don't forget marital agreements while you're at it, if you start that discussion thread.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm game for another thread if you wish. I brought up both aspects of my identity because they already were compared and contrasted without input from somebody who actually experiences daily life as a queer and as a woman.

Don't forget marital agreements while you're at it, if you start that discussion thread.

What kind of marital agreements?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What kind of marital agreements?

Either BDSM or open marriage contractual agreements. Or both.

 

[WyattDerp]

When I was young a good female friend talked me into dressing me up as girl for carneval, the idea for the costume being "girl who didn't dress up" haha. I was mildly sexually assaulted by someone like 4 times my age, who, while pushing by me in a crowded area, squeezed my butt *hard* with both hands (it actually hurt a bit). Before I realized what had happened he had disappeared in the crowd, and to be honest I found it hilarious back then so I let it slide (which I regretted later, should have gotten scumbag fired). But that's because I was a dude, and the joke was on him. As a girl that would have been a violating experience, and it's still small potatoes I guess compared to what is going on out there.

So, one evening as girl, sexual assault. Over 30 years as guy, zilch. Anecdotal, but that's my data

 

[MysticSang'ha]

When I was young a good female friend talked me into dressing me up as girl for carneval, the idea for the costume being "girl who didn't dress up" haha. I was mildly sexually assaulted by someone like 4 times my age, who, while pushing by me in a crowded area, squeezed my butt *hard* with both hands (it actually hurt a bit). Before I realized what had happened he had disappeared in the crowd, and to be honest I found it hilarious back then so I let it slide (which I regretted later, should have gotten scumbag fired). But that's because I was a dude, and the joke was on him. As a girl that would have been a violating experience, and it's still small potatoes I guess compared to what is going on out there.

So, one evening as girl, sexual assault. Over 30 years as guy, zilch. Anecdotal, but that's my data

It's sad you were assaulted. Period.

 

[WyattDerp]

Nah, no harm was done there. I should have run after the guy, but I was just too flabbergasted; and later I bragged about it. It was testament for how well done a job my friend had done with the make-up haha.

It's sad that our societies and the people in it are that way. And I think the more horrible such assaults are, the less likely for people to even talk about them.

 

[Alceste]

Yeah, but I saying a million times in a row that that's not the kind I'm talking about apparently doesn't suffice to get that across. If you put all the porn in the world in a bag and grabbed something random out of it, chances are it will be degrading to women. If you deny that I envy your ignorance. Most women in the "sex industry" are not there by choice, that's just a fact, and to be blind to that is unacceptable to me --- the precious few who do it for fun and moneys will just have to frigging get over the fact that in this instance they're not the center of attention, not meant here, not relevant.

Lol, "envy my ignorance". Which of the two of us do you reckon has a good friend who works in the sex industry between jobs?

If you're going to claim "most" women are not doing it by choice, I'm going to need to see your evidence.

 

[WyattDerp]

If you're going to claim "most" women are not doing it by choice, I'm going to need to see your evidence.

Of course it's a choice. Like the choice of not wanting to starve. So?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

It's sad you were assaulted. Period.