"Patriarchy"

[Me Myself]

I was assaulted in a dance club once. Some guy thought it was okay when he came up behind me while I was dancing to pull me against him, reach around and shove his hand between my legs. I stepped on his toe with my heel, turned around and back handed him. Security came over to pull me off him. He was easily 6'3" tall, and I'm 4"11", but I didn't care at that point about height difference or how risky hitting him was after the incident. What he did was a legitimate assault, and I was doing what I could to defend myself.

I was wondering if I was going to be thrown out of the club, but security thought I wasn't a threat. They didn't think he was, either, since he was allowed to stay.

Somebody just walking up and grabs me between my legs? That isn't a scenario that only requires a polite but emphatic "no". That's a clear assault, and I treat it as such. We don't tell children that if somebody touches them that all they need to do is tell the perpetrator to stop and THEN it becomes problematic. It's an attack

I agree completely.

I was replying to mathematicians post as a stand alone. I am honestly just not keeping up with this thread at all b y now.

 

[Me Myself]

I do would advice my teens to just be emphatic and pull out unwanted limbs when it just looks like a misunderstanding, but coming from someones back in itself is the way of an attack and should be handled as such.

 

[outis]

Hi folks!
I don't know if this has been addressed in the >40 pages I didn't read but it's a bit of a personal pet peeve so apologies if what I'm saying is redundant...

I say it is wrong to equate patriarchism with circumstances that evidence male disposability, given they are simply two different things.
...
male disposability, that simply is against patriarchy ithe core. The "archy"s are used to denominate those that must rule as you well say, not those that are more dispensable, but the other way around.

Patriarchy doesn't mean the rule of males. Patriarchy oppresses males as well, albeit differently. During the heyday of patriarchy, most males were oppressed.
Patriarchy literally means the rule of the fathers but what it actually used to mean is a bit different: the rule of the propertied men who are able to provide security to their extended family and dependents. The stereotypical patriarch would be a Godfather type of figure, the type of guy who used to hold high political offices in the 19th century or the kind of character you often find in HBO shows (Avon Barksdale, Ned Stark and so forth).
You average male is in no way a patriarch. During the heyday of partriarchy, the average male was disposable because patriarchs used the average male as cannon fodder or some sort (while they prefered to use women in other ways). So "male disposability" is very much a part of patriarchy. Women tend not to consider their sons, brothers, husbands and so forth to be disposable, you know.

My problem is that according to feminism, ALL problems of gender unequality steam from "pariarchism"

That's news to me.

Our laws, our economic system and so forth are evolved from patriarchal institutions. Reckognizing this constitutes basic historical awareness, not feminism!
And recognizing that a whole lot of stuff stems from patriarchy doesn't amount to saying that ALL problems stem from patriarchy.

 

[Me Myself]

I dont get why people keep talking as if I am saying that e concept of male dispensability OPPOSES the possibility of a patriarchy. i am NOT saying that, I am saying it is not the same nor is there any reasonable link to make it a result of patriarchy.

If you were saying "the father of the household decides which one of his teens must go to war" that would be a result of patriarchy ( I know it doesnt exist, is an example) . Forcing all males to go die on the field while females take care of the kids is a product of gender roles, not of patriarchy.

Te problems is you are talking as if gender roles came from patriarchy, when we just know that ere exists gender roles and at one of them is that only males can be political leaders ( the highlighted part being the only actual meaning of the word patriarchy)

 

[Alceste]

I dont get why people keep talking as if I am saying that e concept of male dispensability OPPOSES the possibility of a patriarchy. i am NOT saying that, I am saying it is not the same nor is there any reasonable link to make it a result of patriarchy.

If you were saying "the father of the household decides which one of his teens must go to war" that would be a result of patriarchy ( I know it doesnt exist, is an example) . Forcing all males to go die on the field while females take care of the kids is a product of gender roles, not of patriarchy.

Te problems is you are talking as if gender roles came from patriarchy, when we just know that ere exists gender roles and at one of them is that only males can be political leaders ( the highlighted part being the only actual meaning of the word patriarchy)

This position of yours that the dictionary offers an adequate and complete representation of an entire social system with four thousand years of history is no less ridiculous now than it was thirty pages ago. Would you mind at least upgrading to wikipedia?

Patriarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[outis]

My dictionary says something a bit different. It recognizes that patriarchy is tied up with property and inheritance of such. Maybe that's because it's British.
edit: nope, it's a yankee dictionary

 

[Alceste]

My dictionary says something a bit different. It recognizes that patriarchy is tied up with property and inheritance of such. Maybe that's because it's British.

Actually, I doubt me myself's dictionary is much different. He's insisting on this specific definition because he can't support the rest of his arguments and attitudes without redefining a few basic words.

 

[outis]

And here I thought my dictionary was special.
I'm not Anglo and seeing that lots of Anglos use the word patriarchy in ways that don't make sense to me, I thought I might be the one operating with an unusual definition.

I'm not sure this is a word we should keep using when talking about contemporary society (in North America, Europe and Japan anyway). We don't have property restrictions or sexual restrictions on political rights anymore (even in practice) and the word seems to confuse people.

 

[Alceste]

And here I thought my dictionary was special.
I'm not Anglo and seeing that lots of Anglos use the word patriarchy in ways that don't make sense to me, I thought I might be the one operating with an unusual definition.

I'm not sure this is a word we should keep using when talking about contemporary society (in North America, Europe and Japan anyway). We don't have property restrictions or sexual restrictions on political rights anymore (even in practice) and the word seems to confuse people.

It only confuses one person I'm aware of.

Seriously, though, we have made amazing progress, and our societies are more egalitarian than ever, thanks to feminism. I don't think we're all the way there yet, though. We're still very under-represented in the top tier of government and industry. We still see all male congressional panels deciding what kind of birth control American women should be allowed to use and some people don't find it weird.

But I am very thankful for the opportunities I have.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

It's sad you were assaulted. Period.

Why in the world are you face-palming this??

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

It only confuses one person I'm aware of.

Seriously, though, we have made amazing progress, and our societies are more egalitarian than ever, thanks to feminism. I don't think we're all the way there yet, though. We're still very under-represented in the top tier of government and industry. We still see all male congressional panels deciding what kind of birth control American women should be allowed to use and some people don't find it weird.

But I am very thankful for the opportunities I have.

Indeed. Something I think is important to keep an eye on is where the gaps remain great (politics, high-level careers, physical safety in relationships, just to name a few) where they have shrunk quite a bit (personal liberties--though some are trying to reverse those gains--and career opportunities), and where they have caught up with--if not surpassed--males (for example, school performance).

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Why in the world are you face-palming this??

Yes it's sad that anyone is sexually assaulted period. But he was making a point that he was sexually assaulted because he was perceived as female. So when someone makes a point about gender based sexual assault or that you're more likely to be sexually assaulted if you are perceived as female, I don't get why anyone would come back with "it's sad that anyone is sexually assaulted.
Period"

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I agree completely.

I was replying to mathematicians post as a stand alone. I am honestly just not keeping up with this thread at all b y now.

Mathematicians post as it stands alone is ridiculous

 

[WyattDerp]

Yes it's sad that anyone is sexually assaulted period. But he was making a point that he was sexually assaulted because he was perceived as female. So when someone makes a point about gender based sexual assault or that you're more likely to be sexually assaulted if you are perceived as female, I don't get why anyone would come back with "it's sad that anyone is sexually assaulted.
Period"

Yeah, and thanks.

I really didn't bring this up in the sense of me being assaulted. A busty 15 year old girl in a miniskirt (with rather nice legs, if I say so myself ) was -- and in a quick, kinda brutal, viper like way. Not dangerous in that instance, but who knows what happens when running in the woods into someone like that? It still sometimes boggles my mind. There's certain things a white middle class male just never gets to see/experience, unless you're close friends with people who share such experiences with you, it just doesn't happen while you're around...! And that is scary. I mean, for the people who get assaulted, not for me, you get the point I hope :/

 

[Me Myself]

Actually, I doubt me myself's dictionary is much different. He's insisting on this specific definition because he can't support the rest of his arguments and attitudes without redefining a few basic words.

Its oxford dictionary.

About argumentation, you have none. Patriarchy is a form of gender discrimination, but supposing that it is what originated other forms is mere speculation.

Patriarchy never conceptually meant to include any other form of gender bias until feminism came by and added to the concept as a propaganda strategy.

 

[Me Myself]

I think it becomes problematic as soon as someone sexually assaults you

Naturally, but not all sexual contact without verbal consent =sexual assault.

Lets say, of a 100 first kisses, how much of them were verbally declared before being executed? And of a 100 females how many would be turned off by that? When a female starts the kiss, how many ask if they can kiss?

I am merely pointing out that it does not turn into sexual assault simply because they guy didnt guess right.

 

[WyattDerp]

Lets say, of a 100 first kisses, how much of them were verbally declared before being executed?

Since when is verbal communication the only one allowed? Body language?

When a female starts the kiss, how many ask if they can kiss?

There is usually this sweet, magic moment where both look into each other's eyes, while their mouths slowly edge towards one another like confused bumble-bees... haha. And actually, asking isn't the worst option either, it can be rather cute instead having to be awkward. But personally, I wouldn't even ask that unless I kinda assumed she'd say yes, just like I wouldn't kiss otherwise. I'm just a coward that way ^^

I am merely pointing out that it is not sexual assault simply because they guy didnt guess right.

It has never anything to do with outright *guessing* IMHO... If she wants you to, you'll know? And she won't hate you for realizing it two seconds late, so why the rush...

 

[Me Myself]

Since when is verbal communication the only one allowed? Body language?



There is usually this sweet, magic moment where both look into each other's eyes, while their mouths slowly edge towards one another like confused bumble-bees... haha. And actually, asking isn't the worst option either, it can be rather cute instead having to be awkward. But personally, I wouldn't even ask that unless I kinda assumed she'd say yes, just like I wouldn't kiss otherwise. I'm just a coward that way ^^



It has never anything to do with outright *guessing* IMHO... If she wants you to, you'll know? And she won't hate you for realizing it two seconds late, so why the rush...

This is my experience:

I am in the womans bedroom, but been there a lot of times before, we are good friends.

She starts telling me how she has been asexual lately. She mentions this many times during the night, so I assume there will be no sex (there has been sex before here). Eventually I go to the bed as we watch a series. She gwts besides me and kinda cuddles. We kinda cuddled since way before we started having sex together. So I am completely confused because on one side she said she was asexual, and also cuddling has happened without sex before, and I dont want her to feel forced to anything, so I decide if she wants anything she will just tell me, cause I can ussually have sex anyways, and she did made a point she didnt want sex earlier that night.

Eventually she says "so we are not having sex right?" And I reply like "its cool" assuming she didnt want to. She stands up angry and says sex is off the table now. I am confused, but dont want to say she just said was asexual because she seems mad and maybe a little pride hurt? So I just say "okay..." "OFF the table!" i stay quiet. Scratch my head.

5minutes after we are having sex, because I assumed she still wanted, but I had absolutely no idea, so I just went for it.

In other times she gave all the body signals and she said that I approached her in the most asexual night of her life.

I am clueless and womens are nuts. I am well aware I am not the only clueless guy nor she e only completely unclear woman

The fact that I actually accomplished that she doesnt feel turned off by my actually asking feels like a major victory to me, and cant grasp why it ever turned her off anyways.

I would never ask if I am romantically interested in the girl, but then again I am not that stupid to come from behind to sexually approach a girl I have never sexually approached before because it makes it harder for her to be able to reject me before there is unwanted contact. Making a sexual approach on a girl in a circumstance where she will be very limited to response is where I would classify it an "attack" for any other circumstance, she is free to remove the limbs/lips of the guy trying to make a move, the same way the guy would if she made the first boldy move and he happened to have a girlfriend (and a conscience)

 

[WyattDerp]

but then again I am not that stupid to come from behind to sexually approach a girl I have never sexually approached before because it makes it harder for her to be able to reject me before there is unwanted contact

Exactly.. know I know what you mean by "guessing wrong". But you understand that this can also be said by people who are talking about a stranger who danced sexy or something? I would say your situation is, well, I know how it can be... but I am just as clueless. If I could help you with that, I would write a book about it and be very, very rich ^^ Maybe she needs time, or maybe she needs you to be a mind reader. It's one of those I think, good luck

 

[Me Myself]

Exactly.. know I know what you mean by "guessing wrong". But you understand that this can also be said by people who are talking about a stranger who danced sexy or something? I would say your situation is, well, I know how it can be... but I am just as clueless. If I could help you with that, I would write a book about it and be very, very rich ^^ Maybe she needs time, or maybe she needs you to be a mind reader. It's one of those I think, good luck

The thing is fine xD. As I said it is just oh so more comfortable now that I can actually ask.

The point is that it doesnt even need to be that confusing. Sometimes you just simply dont know and go for it. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you are in a condition where it is easy for her to physically reject you if she doesnt correspond the drive or the will.

So thats all I am saying. Sexually grabbing someone when the other one doesnt want to is not sexuall assult in every circumstance. For it to be sexual assult you need to know s/he doesnt want to and still do it anyways, or do it in a circumstance where the other is helpless.