Paul declares the God of Israel dead!

[Robert.Evans]

I disagree. I believe Yeshua meant one in spirit or in communion. Yeshua makes it clear in many other passages that he was not the Father himself.

But is not God Spirit?

 

[Robert.Evans]

I'm glad you appreciate my take on Paul's writings. Just want to make it clear that I don't agree with Paul personally and I believe this portion of his writings to be blasphemous actually.

I do not believe that the God of Israel died. I also believe fully in His Torah still.

You ''do not''. Oh, Ok. He did for me. There are many aspects to the One True God

 

[Robert.Evans]

I'm glad you appreciate my take on Paul's writings. Just want to make it clear that I don't agree with Paul personally and I believe this portion of his writings to be blasphemous actually.

I do not believe that the God of Israel died. I also believe fully in His Torah still.

I don't think Paul is wrong. Peter says his writings are hard to understand, not wrong

 

[Simplelogic]

But is not God Spirit?

Yes. But the Father's spirit indwelled Yeshua. This didn't make Yeshua the Father imho.

 

[Simplelogic]

I don't think Paul is wrong. Peter says his writings are hard to understand, not wrong

I don't believe Peter wrote 2 Peter. Many scholars agree on this point. If you want to examine further I recommend:

Second Peter: Reference to Paul

 

[Robert.Evans]

I don't believe Peter wrote 2 Peter. Many scholars agree on this point. If you want to examine further I recommend:

Second Peter: Reference to Paul

Thankyou for the link... they are always helpful to someone

 

[Scott C.]

Interesting. So we might say, as The Father and I are One (Jh10) that the father died when the son did..... hmmm

huh?

 

[Scott C.]

Interesting. So we might say, as The Father and I are One (Jh10) that the father died when the son did..... hmmm

First, It's obvious to me that Paul did not teach that the Father died. That is an incorrect interpretation of Romans. There are a couple of interpretations which I've read. One is that the "husband" referred to is the "law", which did die with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

It is true that when we are "born again" we become the sons of Christ. This definitely changes our relationship to Christ. But that of course does not mean that the Father died. Our relationship with the Father remains as always. I don't know if Paul was alluding to this in Romans, but it seems a possibility.

 

[sojourner]

Great another anti Paul thread based on ignorance and out of context quote mining, OH BOY!!!!!!!!

I just don't think I could go on without another fix of this fundamentalist ambrosia.

 

[sojourner]

The husband being spoken of is the God of the Torah (law of Moses).

No. The husband being spoken of is Moses -- the "father" of Israel, the bringer/writer of the Law.

 

[sojourner]

Hebrews was written by Paul or one of his contemporaries so I give it little authority.

Of course not. It doesn't agree with your eisegetical approach and preconceived opinions.

 

[Simplelogic]

Paul clearly says that the "husbands" death is what makes the Torah become obsolete. He clearly distinguishes the husband from the Torah. But even if you are correct in your assertion, you still have a problem.

Yeshua taught that the whole Torah would not pass away until "heaven and earth" pass away. He also says that anyone who teaches against ANY of these laws will be called least. Yeshua's twelve apostles also continued to follow the Torah completely…including animal sacrifices. You must conclude then that IF Paul is correct, then Yeshua and the twelve were wrong.

You must also conclude that the whole law of Moses is dead. There is no picking and choosing which ones should still be kept. Paul is claiming the whole thing to be dead…including the 10 commandments.

Regarding the authority of the twelve:
How Many Apostles of Jesus Christ are in the Bible

 

[sojourner]

Paul clearly says that the "husbands" death is what makes the Torah become obsolete. He clearly distinguishes the husband from the Torah. But even if you are correct in your assertion, you still have a problem.

Yeshua taught that the whole Torah would not pass away until "heaven and earth" pass away. He also says that anyone who teaches against ANY of these laws will be called least. Yeshua's twelve apostles also continued to follow the Torah completely…including animal sacrifices. You must conclude then that IF Paul is correct, then Yeshua and the twelve were wrong.

You must also conclude that the whole law of Moses is dead. There is no picking and choosing which ones should still be kept. Paul is claiming the whole thing to be dead…including the 10 commandments.

Regarding the authority of the twelve:
How Many Apostles of Jesus Christ are in the Bible

Paul's also writing to Gentiles, who are not required to keep the Law. To them, Moses is dead. Christ (the fulfillment of the Law) is alive.

Regarding # of apostles: There are at least 70.

 

[Robert.Evans]

First, It's obvious to me that Paul did not teach that the Father died. That is an incorrect interpretation of Romans. There are a couple of interpretations which I've read. One is that the "husband" referred to is the "law", which did die with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

It is true that when we are "born again" we become the sons of Christ. This definitely changes our relationship to Christ. But that of course does not mean that the Father died. Our relationship with the Father remains as always. I don't know if Paul was alluding to this in Romans, but it seems a possibility.

If there are many reflection of God, then why cannot one die? Did not the lord say that Yisrael are gods? If so, we die, so why not they?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Paul clearly says that the "husbands" death is what makes the Torah become obsolete. He clearly distinguishes the husband from the Torah. But even if you are correct in your assertion, you still have a problem.

Yeshua taught that the whole Torah would not pass away until "heaven and earth" pass away. He also says that anyone who teaches against ANY of these laws will be called least. Yeshua's twelve apostles also continued to follow the Torah completely…including animal sacrifices. You must conclude then that IF Paul is correct, then Yeshua and the twelve were wrong.

You must also conclude that the whole law of Moses is dead. There is no picking and choosing which ones should still be kept. Paul is claiming the whole thing to be dead…including the 10 commandments.

Regarding the authority of the twelve:
How Many Apostles of Jesus Christ are in the Bible

Where does it say animal sacrifices were carried out?

 

[Scott C.]

If there are many reflection of God, then why cannot one die? Did not the lord say that Yisrael are gods? If so, we die, so why not they?

The God I believe in can't die.

 

[Simplelogic]

If there are many reflection of God, then why cannot one die? Did not the lord say that Yisrael are gods? If so, we die, so why not they?

This term "god" or elhohim is in reference to men….not the God of Israel.

 

[Simplelogic]

Where does it say animal sacrifices were carried out?

20And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Torah; 21and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22“What, then, is to be done?They will certainly hear that you have come. 23“Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Torah. 25“But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. Acts 21:20-26

Here is the Torah passage on Nazarite vows. It also lists the sacrifices which were done:

13‘Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall bring the offering to the doorway of the tent of meeting. 14‘He shall present his offering to the LORD: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering, 15and a basket of unleavened cakes of fine flour mixed with oil and unleavened wafers spread with oil, along with their grain offering and their drink offering.16‘Then the priest shall present them before the LORD and shall offer his sin offering and his burnt offering.17‘He shall also offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, together with the basket of unleavened cakes; the priest shall likewise offer its grain offering and its drink offering. 18‘The Nazirite shall then shave his dedicated head of hair at the doorway of the tent of meeting, and take the dedicated hair of his head and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace offerings. Num 6:13:18

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes…it certainly does. You might want to scroll back through the threads. Paul is claiming that someone died on order for the Torah to become "fulfilled" He also claimed that this person that died was not Jesus.

I have already addressed Paul's pro law comments. Paul believed in the "law of Christ"..not the law of Moses.

I think you need to reread it. It is talking about the Law - not the Hebrew God dying.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


No dead God of Israel anywhere in this text!

*

 

[Robert.Evans]

20And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Torah; 21and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22“What, then, is to be done?They will certainly hear that you have come. 23“Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Torah. 25“But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. Acts 21:20-26

Ahh... ok. It means ''offering''. It could be seen as sacrifice, but this was the Essenes we are talking about, and they did not sacrifice animals. Ephesians 5.2 uses the same ''offering'' but also uses ''sacrifice'' also.

The Mashiyach was the sacrifice, the lamb