Paul Saved on the road?

[e.r.m.]

Mark 16:16 doesn’t say, if one is not baptized, he can’t be saved, but it says, “he who disbelieves will be condemned”. And even in that case, it is not the disbelief that is the reason for judgment. the reason is the sin that remains, if person doesn’t receive the forgiveness by believing what Jesus says.

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:18-21

Why do so many use this same argument? After a gazillion times, don't the rebuttals get around?
But ok.

It doesn't matter that part B did not say if you're not baptized there condemned.
why did Jesus put baptism smack in the middle of a getting saved discussion in the first place if it's not part of getting saved? What's it doing there?
A person has to be really motivated to find a way out to make an issue of that.

It's also VERY EASY to see by those not looking for a way out, that since belief has to go with baptism in order for baptism to be effective, so then that baptism without that belief would not be effective, there'd be no point in getting baptized without it.

We should be discussing the rebuttal. Do older generations pass this argument on to new generations and the new generation thinks that it's the first time it's ever come up, or that no one has encountered that before and already thought of a reply?

This argument is as old as dirt, almost as old as the thief on the cross argument.

I'm staggered that people at least don't think that counter arguments already exist.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Repentance is always required before the Lord will forgive sin. (Luke 13:3).

He requires us to do the same. (Eph. 4:32)

I mostly disagree there with how you interpret that for me.

I come halfway and think that sometimes you cannot forgive someone. Its simply a human limitation that sometimes we're just too...weak. Its not always simple. Also sometimes its unclear who was in the wrong.

 

[Nova2216]

I mostly disagree there with how you interpret that for me.

I come halfway and think that sometimes you cannot forgive someone. Its simply a human limitation that sometimes we're just too...weak. Its not always simple. Also sometimes its unclear who was in the wrong.

Is it possible you disagree with the scriptures?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Is it possible you disagree with the scriptures?

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1John 1:8
"Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know." 1Corinthians 8:1

I'm pretty sure the scriptures say that none of us can be certain of our understanding of doctrines. They condemn our arguments. I recall Paul saying "We pull down argument which exalts itself against the knowledge of God." (I'm paraphrasing to give an interpretation).

Poor old Job. That poor man did everything right and still got it all wrong. That happens to a lot of us I think. I think we do everything right, but we get everything wrong anyway.

 

[Nova2216]

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1John 1:8
"Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know." 1Corinthians 8:1

I'm pretty sure the scriptures say that none of us can be certain of our understanding of doctrines. They condemn our arguments. I recall Paul saying "We pull down argument which exalts itself against the knowledge of God." (I'm paraphrasing to give an interpretation).

Poor old Job. That poor man did everything right and still got it all wrong. That happens to a lot of us I think. I think we do everything right, but we get everything wrong anyway.

May I direct your mind to (Eph. 3:3,4)?

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (Eph. 3:3,4)

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (Jn 7:17)

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (Jn. 8:32)

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. (Eph. 5:17)


Thanks

 

[Brickjectivity]

May I direct your mind to (Eph. 3:3,4)?

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (Eph. 3:3,4)

A liar may nevertheless know things. The problem is they can't stop lying. That among other things is what I get from James. He's very stern in insisting that if anyone thinks themselves wise they should show it by how they live. Maybe Paul disagrees with him, but I think they agree on it.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (Jn 7:17)

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (Jn. 8:32)

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. (Eph. 5:17)

John begins his gospel by saying that he is not himself the light but that he testifies to it. That is similar to James who says we are the children of the father of the heavenly lights but are not the light ourselves, and James implies that unlike the Father we do change like shifting shifting shadows. John's gospel has the beautiful speech of Jesus to Nicodemus in which Jesus says that the spirit goes where it wills. It isn't contained in my outline of bible studies, can't be passed from my brain to yours even by a USB cable, nor from your brain to mine. It isn't controllable.

When you bring to my memory "You shall know the truth" the most important thing to me is that this is not knowledge revealed between people. We pride ourselves to think so and to try to automate the reproduction of the spirit. I recall how Peter gets his name. He learns directly from the Father who Jesus is, and no human tells him. Jesus says that he is therefore blessed. Nothing else would be blessed. That is the foundation upon which the church is built. I can't tell you what the Father has not revealed to you personally. It would not be blessed. I can talk my head off, however the light doesn't belong to me and is our shared inheritance. I can't control the truth or own it.

 

[Nova2216]

A liar may nevertheless know things. The problem is they can't stop lying. That among other things is what I get from James. He's very stern in insisting that if anyone thinks themselves wise they should show it by how they live. Maybe Paul disagrees with him, but I think they agree on it.



John begins his gospel by saying that he is not himself the light but that he testifies to it. That is similar to James who says we are the children of the father of the heavenly lights but are not the light ourselves, and James implies that unlike the Father we do change like shifting shifting shadows. John's gospel has the beautiful speech of Jesus to Nicodemus in which Jesus says that the spirit goes where it wills. It isn't contained in my outline of bible studies, can't be passed from my brain to yours even by a USB cable, nor from your brain to mine. It isn't controllable.

When you bring to my memory "You shall know the truth" the most important thing to me is that this is not knowledge revealed between people. We pride ourselves to think so and to try to automate the reproduction of the spirit. I recall how Peter gets his name. He learns directly from the Father who Jesus is, and no human tells him. Jesus says that he is therefore blessed. Nothing else would be blessed. That is the foundation upon which the church is built. I can't tell you what the Father has not revealed to you personally. It would not be blessed. I can talk my head off, however the light doesn't belong to me and is our shared inheritance. I can't control the truth or own it.

Truth can be known , understood and passed on to others without lying. (2Tim.,2:2).

2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.


Thanks

 

[Brickjectivity]

Truth can be known , understood and passed on to others without lying. (2Tim.,2:2).

2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.


Thanks

I guess just toss out James, then. Are Paul and James averse to one another? Some people say so. I have been avoiding the question. It is uncomfortable to think they might have had different points of view.

 

[Nova2216]

I guess just toss out James, then. Are Paul and James averse to one another? Some people say so. I have been avoiding the question. It is uncomfortable to think they might have had different points of view.

James and Paul harmonized. (Jn.14:26) (Jn.16:13) (1Cor.14:37)

Isn't it possible peoples understanding of what Paul and James taught is incorrect? (Mt.22:29)

If that was true we would not have to toss of the book of James.

Just change what we think about what they wrote.

Thanks

 

[1213]

Why do so many use this same argument? After a gazillion times, don't the rebuttals get around?
....

I think there just is no good Biblical rebuttal for that what the Bible clearly tells.

 

[1213]

Jesus said -

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...(Mk 16:16)

...baptism doth also now save us... (1Peter 3:21)

TRUE or FALSE

This is a symbol of baptism…
1Peter 3:21

According to that, it is a symbol.

If person believes Jesus, he wants to be baptized, but I believe forgiveness/salvation is in the words of Jesus, because:

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

It is really God who saves, not physical water. Otherwise these would not have been possible:

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
Luke 23:43

 

[e.r.m.]

This is a symbol of baptism…
1Peter 3:21

According to that, it is a symbol.

As you even said This is a symbol of baptism, baptism is not the symbol of anything. Baptism is being symbolized, baptism is not symbolizing. To change what it actually says to say that baptism is now symbolizing something is "conditioning" at best and "dishonesty" at worst. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're "conditioned" to see the opposite of what's written, instead of knowingly and premeditatedly espousing the opposite of what's actually written.
Still, you see the word symbol, ignore the rest of the written phrase, and think you could restructure the phrase into whatever you like.

If person believes Jesus, he wants to be baptized, but I believe forgiveness/salvation is in the words of Jesus, because:

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

This scripture speaks only of God's part. It does not mention faith or any of the expectations from us on how to access that spirit and life. Now if you're saying, and I don't think you are, if we follow those words of Jesus we will have spirited anf life, then yes. And those words would include belief and baptism Mark 16:16. Unless you're actually saying that Jesus soley speaking those words conveys salvation on any who hear it, willing or not.

It is really God who saves, not physical water. Otherwise these would not have been possible:

Tell me even one person who has told you that physical water saves. Why would you even bring this up? The position has been that it is God who saves when a person believes in him and in Jesus and is baptized in his name, which is in water Acts 10:47-48.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speakss? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.

Luke 5:21-25

Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
Luke 23:43

Would you say that the Jews should have been exempt from circumcision, using Noah as an example of not having been circumcised?
No, right? Isn't that because circumcision did not begin until Abraham?
Why then would you use these two examples, since baptism in Jesus's name for salvation/forgiveness of sins was not first commanded until after the resurrection Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38-39?
Do you give these arguments much critical thought and are you aware that the thief on the cross argument is the oldest debunked argument OF ALL TIME?

How does anybody still use the thief on the cross and the Mark 16:16b arguments?

 

[Brickjectivity]

James and Paul harmonized. (Jn.14:26) (Jn.16:13) (1Cor.14:37)

Isn't it possible peoples understanding of what Paul and James taught is incorrect? (Mt.22:29)

If that was true we would not have to toss of the book of James.

Just change what we think about what they wrote.

Thanks

James and Paul are two different people. Disagreement is to be expected for that and other reasons, so I actually don't need to toss one or the other. I think its a little bit much to expect them to be completely in agreement merely because their writings are strapped together. What I have done here is to focus on James point of view. You've been working outside of his, what with your emphasis upon human teaching which James disagrees with.

 

[Nova2216]

This is a symbol of baptism…
1Peter 3:21

According to that, it is a symbol.

If person believes Jesus, he wants to be baptized, but I believe forgiveness/salvation is in the words of Jesus, because:

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

It is really God who saves, not physical water. Otherwise these would not have been possible:

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
Luke 23:43

I have never said that the water saves.

I do not know anyone who says that.

The thief on the cross lived and died under the OT Law.

If I were you I would never use the thief in an argument against the NT Baptism.That argument is not valid. You might as well be arguing why isn't Moses or Abraham commanded to be baptized.

The Baptist faith and message (a creed book) at one point agrees that water baptism was the door into the church. But then the creed book goes on to say that now it has changed.

My question is when did it change, who changed it and did they have the authority to do so?

 

[e.r.m.]

I think there just is no good Biblical rebuttal for that what the Bible clearly tells.

"Clearly" is a subjective 'eye of the beholder' term. Explicitly written is the only unavoidable inescapable standard. There is no such evidence against baptism's place in getting saved in the Bible.
Mark 16:16 Answer then, why did Jesus put baptism smack in the middle of a getting saved discussion in the first place if it's not part of getting saved? What's it doing there?

 

[1213]

Mark 16:16 Answer then, why did Jesus put baptism smack in the middle of a getting saved discussion in the first place if it's not part of getting saved? What's it doing there?

If we look at the part where Jesus tells how to baptize disciples, it doesn’t speak it is the requirement to be saved.

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

But, the water baptism is not the only baptism in the Bible. There is also the baptism of Holy Spirit.

John answered them all, "I indeed baptize you with water, but he comes who is mightier than I, the latchet of whose sandals I am not worthy to loosen. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,
Luke 3:16

I can agree that the baptism of Holy Spirit is required.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Poor old Job. That poor man did everything right and still got it all wrong. That happens to a lot of us I think. I think we do everything right, but we get everything wrong anyway.

Imagine what Job's family might have thought? Lot of good it did them while trying to analyze the story. They all wound up dead. XOp

 

[Nova2216]

If we look at the part where Jesus tells how to baptize disciples, it doesn’t speak it is the requirement to be saved.

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

But, the water baptism is not the only baptism in the Bible. There is also the baptism of Holy Spirit.

John answered them all, "I indeed baptize you with water, but he comes who is mightier than I, the latchet of whose sandals I am not worthy to loosen. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,
Luke 3:16

I can agree that the baptism of Holy Spirit is required.

* (Eph 4:5) says there is now only one baptism. You must pick between the two according to (Eph.4:5).

Holy Spirit baptism was a "PROMISE" from Jesus to the apostles alone (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13).

It was never a commandment for all people.

The Lord is the administrator of the Holy Spirit baptism and not men.

Men however can baptize other men in water according to (Mt.28:18-20) (Mark 16:15,16).

Holy Spirit Baptism was a miracle.

Miracles ceased around the end of the 1st Century.
(1Cor. 13:8-10) (Eph. 4:11-13) (Zech.13:1,2).

WHY?

B/c it was only by the laying on of the apostles hands that the gifts could be passed on to another person (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19 ; 19:1-6).

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

The Samaritans in (Acts 8:5,12,13) had been baptized in
water but they did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is why Peter and John came to Samaria from Jerusalem to lay hands on them (Acts 8:18.19).


No Apostles = No Miracles

 

[e.r.m.]

If we look at the part where Jesus tells how to baptize disciples, it doesn’t speak it is the requirement to be saved.

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

But, the water baptism is not the only baptism in the Bible. There is also the baptism of Holy Spirit.

John answered them all, "I indeed baptize you with water, but he comes who is mightier than I, the latchet of whose sandals I am not worthy to loosen. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,
Luke 3:16

I can agree that the baptism of Holy Spirit is required.

And thus, you entirely avoided my question. Mark 16:16 is the parallel to Matthew 28:19. Baptism in the name of the Jesus is in water Acts 10:47-48. like it or not, "who believe and are baptized will be saved" is there. You did not answer why Jesus put baptism there in the first place. What's it doing there? those who do not believe baptism is a part of getting saved have never put baptism in the middle of that kind of statement, unless it's to say baptism is not involved in getting saved. They say "get save this way or that way" and leave baptism out entirely for another time or another conversation. Jesus put it there without any qualifiers. What's it doing there? Answer what it's doing there.

Nova2216 is right, Jesus wasn't commanding baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is something he would administer himself.

 

[Nova2216]

Part of the problem is that today people read (Jn 14/15/16) and think those promises Jesus made to the apostles were also made to the people of today. That is not the case. I think this is alot of the problem. To teach people have the gifts today is very deceptive. Miracles are not done, prophesying is not done today, speaking in another language without one studying that language is not happening today. This is so very deceptive.

It's all about money.

The people who teach these gifts are for today have tried to change the meaning of the "seed". They have defined the "seed" to mean you give money. That is not what the seed refers too. The "seed" is the word of God (Luke 8:11).

If people would study their bibles they would be able to refute these errors being taught instead of going along with it.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2Tim.2:15)