Paul Saved on the road?

[e.r.m.]

Part of the problem is that today people read (Jn 14/15/16) and think those promises Jesus made to the apostles were also made to the people of today. That is not the case. I think this is alot of the problem. To teach people have the gifts today is very deceptive. Miracles are not done, prophesying is not done today, speaking in another language without one studying that language is not happening today. This is so very deceptive.

It's all about money.

The people who teach these gifts are for today have tried to change the meaning of the "seed". They have defined the "seed" to mean you give money. That is not what the seed refers too. The "seed" is the word of God (Luke 8:11).

If people would study their bibles they would be able to refute these errors being taught instead of going along with it.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2Tim.2:15)

That's a different topic for another thread.

 

[Nova2216]

How do we know we have a good relationship with the Lord?

The answer is found in (1Jn 2:3-6).

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


How was Paul saved?

He had to do as the Lord commanded.

He went to Damascus
He went to the street called Straight
He went to the house of Judas
He went to speak with Ananias

Notice all the action involved BEFORE Paul's sins were forgiven.

One cannot have any part with God (or be saved) until his sins have been forgiven.

WHY?

B/c God can have no part with sin (Isa. 59:1,2) (Rom. 3:23 ; 6:23).


Let's notice what Paul was told by the gospel preacher. (Acts 22:16)

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Away Your Sins
4. Calling On The Name Of The Lord

When was Paul's sins forgiven?

BEFORE or AFTER (baptism)


When was your sins forgiven?



Thanks

 

[1213]

And thus, you entirely avoided my question. Mark 16:16 ... ...They say "get save this way or that way" and leave baptism out entirely for another time or another conversation. Jesus put it there without any qualifiers. What's it doing there?...

Sorry, reason why I think baptism is not condition to be saved is, because it doesn’t say “if one is not baptized, he will be condemned”, and baptism is used to make person a disciple of Jesus.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

But, maybe I have misunderstood, I have to think this more, before saying anything else to this.

 

[1213]

...Holy Spirit baptism was a "PROMISE" from Jesus to the apostles alone (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13). ...

Interesting, I believe it is for all disciples of Jesus.

 

[Nova2216]

Interesting, I believe it is for all disciples of Jesus.

Does the bible teach it is for all people?

Isn't that what matters?

 

[sojourner]

For one to have part with God one must have his sins forgiven.

Why?

B/c sin separates men from God (Isa.59:1,2) (Rom.3:23 ; 6:23).

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.


The Lord could not tell Paul how to be saved b/c of what (2Cor.4:7) teaches.

You seem to hold some narrow and (I believe) insubstantial views on the matter of forgiveness. AFAIC, the act of Jesus’ self-sacrifice was the sign that God was standing in a posture of forgiveness. Forgiveness is effected by God — not by human beings. Here’s why:

The word “forgive” is a compound word. The “for” part is from an Anglo-Saxon root-word that’s a nautical term. In ancient times, when bays, coves and lakes were full of fishing craft, a member of the crew would sit “fore” in the boat (at the prow). When another boat came too close, he would call “fore!” And push the other craft away. “Fore” means “to push away.” To “give” is to offer something to another.

To for-give is to push away negativity and return it to the sender. We sin when we “push negative energy toward God,” that does not resonate with God’s positive energy. God for-gives us by divesting God’s Self of that energy and handing it back to us. That act of giving cleanses the energy — puts it into resonance with God’s “good stuff.”

When we send out negativity, it damages a part of us. When God gives it back to us in pure form, it heals us and restores us to wholeness. That’s how forgiveness is efficacious for wholeness (or salvation). When we repent, we “turn toward” the pure energy God is handing us, and “turn away” from the negativity. IOW, we open ourselves to what God is giving us: wholeness.

It really has nothing to do with baptism, or a “five-finger exercise,” or who imparts the Gospel. It does have everything to do with right relationship — with love of God with the whole heart, soul, and mind, and our neighbor as ourself.

When Paul’s eyes were opened and he was restored to wholeness (blindness is code for “not whole”) he was being put in congruity with God. It was an act of forgiveness.

 

[sojourner]

Does the bible teach it is for all people?

Isn't that what matters?

No, it’s not ultimately “what matters.” What matters is that we continue in the Apostles’ teaching (of which the Bible is part) and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and the prayers. IOW, the fostering and embracing of right relationship is what matters. The Great Commission in Matt. 26 offers this right relationship to all people. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have been told to “go into all the world...”

 

[sojourner]

Is it possible you disagree with the scriptures?

Jesus did on occasion... The scriptures are not — indeed, have never been — the be-all-end-all of faith. Is it possible you’re ascribing too much to the Bible?

 

[sojourner]

to the apostles were also made to the people of today. That is not the case. I think this is alot of the problem. To teach people have the gifts today is very deceptive. Miracles are not done, prophesying is not done today, speaking in another language without one studying that language is not happening today. This is so very deceptive

Part of the problem is that your view is narrow from where I’m standing. I see miracles all the time — have been witness to them. I have also witnessed prophecy, and have done so myself. People speak languages without “studying” them all the time. You just have to where and how to see beyond “this world.” To indicate that spiritual movement is not taking place is what’s “very deceptive,” AFAIC.

 

[sojourner]

May I direct your mind to (Eph. 3:3,4)?

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (Eph. 3:3,4)

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (Jn 7:17)

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (Jn. 8:32)

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. (Eph. 5:17)


Thanks

Quoting a few passages out of context is not a basis for a valid argument.

 

[sojourner]

The Lord is the administrator of the Holy Spirit baptism and not men

But the Lord gave the keys to the kingdom to the apostles. He entrusted the administration of his church to them.

it was only by the laying on of the apostles hands that the gifts could be passed on to another person

Correct. Apostles have been passing on authority by laying on of hands for centuries.

No Apostles = No Miracles

There are apostles. Always have been. Today’s clergy are the successors to Apostolic authority. The reason why bishops wear mitres is because the mitre symbolizes the flame that stood on the Apostles’ heads at Pentecost. That you don’t recognize that is to your detriment in this argument.

 

[sojourner]

As you even said This is a symbol of baptism, baptism is not the symbol of anything. Baptism is being symbolized, baptism is not symbolizing. To change what it actually says to say that baptism is now symbolizing something is "conditioning" at best and "dishonesty" at worst. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're "conditioned" to see the opposite of what's written, instead of knowingly and premeditatedly espousing the opposite of what's actually written

I think you’re conflating the symbolic with the concrete. Baptism has always been a symbolic act. To bring it into the concrete and say that “it’s the water” or even “it’s the act” that saves is, IMO, ludicrous. Baptism is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace.

The Baptist faith and message (a creed book) at one point agrees that water baptism was the door into the church. But then the creed book goes on to say that now it has changed.

My question is when did it change, who changed it and did they have the authority to do so?

I’m not a Baptist; I disagree with much of their teaching. That being said, their duly ordained clergy do have the authority to pass along the Apostles’ teaching as they are called to do so, according to biblical and historic precedent.

 

[Nova2216]

No, it’s not ultimately “what matters.” What matters is that we continue in the Apostles’ teaching (of which the Bible is part) and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and the prayers. IOW, the fostering and embracing of right relationship is what matters. The Great Commission in Matt. 26 offers this right relationship to all people. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have been told to “go into all the world...”

Without doing what God says the way God says to do it there is no relationship according to (1Jn 2:3-6). This verse teaches man how we know we have a relationship with the Lord.


3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

How do we know we are in the light?

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (Jn 3:19-21).


It sounds like the Lord requires people to do as he says.

That is the point of (Heb.11).


Thanks for posting.

 

[Nova2216]

You seem to hold some narrow and (I believe) insubstantial views on the matter of forgiveness. AFAIC, the act of Jesus’ self-sacrifice was the sign that God was standing in a posture of forgiveness. Forgiveness is effected by God — not by human beings. Here’s why:

The word “forgive” is a compound word. The “for” part is from an Anglo-Saxon root-word that’s a nautical term. In ancient times, when bays, coves and lakes were full of fishing craft, a member of the crew would sit “fore” in the boat (at the prow). When another boat came too close, he would call “fore!” And push the other craft away. “Fore” means “to push away.” To “give” is to offer something to another.

To for-give is to push away negativity and return it to the sender. We sin when we “push negative energy toward God,” that does not resonate with God’s positive energy. God for-gives us by divesting God’s Self of that energy and handing it back to us. That act of giving cleanses the energy — puts it into resonance with God’s “good stuff.”

When we send out negativity, it damages a part of us. When God gives it back to us in pure form, it heals us and restores us to wholeness. That’s how forgiveness is efficacious for wholeness (or salvation). When we repent, we “turn toward” the pure energy God is handing us, and “turn away” from the negativity. IOW, we open ourselves to what God is giving us: wholeness.

It really has nothing to do with baptism, or a “five-finger exercise,” or who imparts the Gospel. It does have everything to do with right relationship — with love of God with the whole heart, soul, and mind, and our neighbor as ourself.

When Paul’s eyes were opened and he was restored to wholeness (blindness is code for “not whole”) he was being put in congruity with God. It was an act of forgiveness.

You say salvation has nothing to do with hearing (Rom.10:17), believing (Jn 8:24), confessing (Rom.10:9,10), repenting (Luke 13:3), being baptized (Mt.28:18-20)..

Well, the Lord said baptism saves (1Peter 3:20,21).

The verse just before (20) is teaching men he is referring to water baptism.

If one does not repent he will perish. (Luke 13:3)


You may want to rethink your position?




Paul was not forgiven of his sins until he was baptized according to (Acts 22:16).

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Away Your Sins
4. Calling On The Lord

If one can count to three he can tell when sins are forgiven.

Our sins separate us from God (Isa.59:1,2) (1Jn 1:6-9)


I am headed for a narrow gate. (Mt.7:13,14).

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Thanks

 

[Nova2216]

No, it’s not ultimately “what matters.” What matters is that we continue in the Apostles’ teaching (of which the Bible is part) and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and the prayers. IOW, the fostering and embracing of right relationship is what matters. The Great Commission in Matt. 26 offers this right relationship to all people. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have been told to “go into all the world...”

Their going into all the world to teach the gospel according to (Mt.28:18-20) (Mark 16:15,16).

I thought you said the gospel does not matter?



Thanks

 

[sojourner]

Without doing what God says the way God says to do it there is no relationship according to (1Jn 2:3-6). This verse teaches man how we know we have a relationship with the Lord.

It sounds like the Lord requires people to do as he says.

God says to foster and carry out loving relationships.


As I said in my post.

 

[sojourner]

You say salvation has nothing to do with hearing (Rom.10:17), believing (Jn 8:24), confessing (Rom.10:9,10), repenting (Luke 13:3), being baptized (Mt.28:18-20)..

Well, the Lord said baptism saves (1Peter 3:20,21).

The verse just before (20) is teaching men he is referring to water baptism.

If one does not repent he will perish. (Luke 13:3)


You may want to rethink your position?




Paul was not forgiven of his sins until he was baptized according to (Acts 22:16).

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Away Your Sins
4. Calling On The Lord

If one can count to three he can tell when sins are forgiven.

Our sins separate us from God (Isa.59:1,2) (1Jn 1:6-9)


I am headed for a narrow gate. (Mt.7:13,14).

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Thanks

You didn’t read a word of my post, did you. I mentioned when sin was forgiven (and how). Your narrow theological understanding is not what Matthew is talking about.

 

[sojourner]

Their going into all the world to teach the gospel according to (Mt.28:18-20) (Mark 16:15,16).

I thought you said the gospel does not matter?



Thanks

“Gospel” as a message of right relationship matters. “Gospel” as some infantile five-finger exercise matters not.

 

[Nova2216]

Part of the problem is that your view is narrow from where I’m standing. I see miracles all the time — have been witness to them. I have also witnessed prophecy, and have done so myself. People speak languages without “studying” them all the time. You just have to where and how to see beyond “this world.” To indicate that spiritual movement is not taking place is what’s “very deceptive,” AFAIC.

OK, if you have the Holy Spirit in the same manner as the apostles allow me to test you.

Close your bible and quote (Mt.Chapter 1).

Practice what (Jn.14::26) says.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[sojourner]

OK, if you have the Holy Spirit in the same manner as the apostles allow me to test you.

Close your bible and quote (Mt.Chapter 1).

Practice what (Jn.14::26) says.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The HS doesn’t magically produce memory work. And that’s not how prophecy works, either. Additionally, you don’t have either the authority or the perspective to test the presence of the Holy Spirit in anyone but yourself. This post is meaningless. it doesn’t present a valid argument or a valid rebuttal. You seem to live in this fantasy world of your own invention where exegesis and theology are concerned.