Paul vs "the law" (can humans earn righteousness?)

[Simplelogic]

Thought I should repost this. God literally says here that the one who "does His commandments" is righteous. He also is making it clear here that a man himself earns his own righteousness.

5“But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, 6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man, 9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 18: 5-9

 

[Simplelogic]

I think that is half way there. Righteousness is simply someone who follows God's lead.

Whats God's "lead". Is it not his commandments and precepts?

 

[savagewind]

Whats God's "lead". Is it not his commandments and precepts?

Do you mean the written commandments and precepts? Matthew 23:23

 

[Simplelogic]

Yes. Yeshua was exposing pharisees for keeping the lesser commandments while ignoring the "weightier commands" of the Law. Look at the next verse!

23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. Matt 23: 23

This is not a knock on the written law. Yeshua is actually confirming that the whole written law should be kept. Not parts of it.

 

[Simplelogic]

All humans and animals are born to please themselves. According to Jesus Christ that is wrong. Agree?

This is not true. Humans are born with the capacity to please themselves or others. They can do good or evil.

 

[Simplelogic]

16Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name.17“They will be Mine,” says the LORD of hosts, “on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him.” 18So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him. Malachi 3: 16-18

Righteous = Those who serve God (keep His commandments)
Evil = ones who don't serve God

Paul taught that literally none are righteous. All humans are evil from birth because of the sin of Adam. Actually, it appears that Malachi's prophecy about people's inability to distinguish between the righteous and the wicked is directly because of Pauline doctrine. People who follow Paul believe that personal righteousness is impossible and many think it is downright evil to try to earn favor with God. Yet the entire bulk of the Hebrew scriptures is a clear witness against this. Also, the words of Yeshua are completely contrary to this logic.

 

[savagewind]

This is not true. Humans are born with the capacity to please themselves or others. They can do good or evil.

Right. But the desire to please others is learned. Is it not?
The last sentence doesn't fit. imho Also, see how you ordered them? Please self is to good as please others is to evil. I know that is not what you meant.
Good and bad are opposites and righteousness and evil are opposites. Wada ya think?

 

[savagewind]

I'd love to keep slamming myself in the figurative head here, but I have something else to do today.

 

[Simplelogic]

Right. But the desire to please others is learned. Is it not?
The last sentence doesn't fit. imho Also, see how you ordered them? Please self is to good as please others is to evil. I know that is not what you meant.
Good and bad are opposites and righteousness and evil are opposites. Wada ya think?

I think there is many good things we instinctively know as humans that aren't taught. I think other things are taught. However we are not accountable for our decisions until we are old enough to know the full difference between good and evil.

 

[Sleeppy]

Thought I should repost this. God literally says here that the one who "does His commandments" is righteous. He also is making it clear here that a man himself earns his own righteousness.

5“But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, 6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man, 9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 18: 5-9

The word of God is definitely here, but even here it lacks. Are we to have crazy ideas about people eating on mountains? Or demonize those with imperfect perception? -- Or do we live selflessly, as Ezekiel knew, to raise the world towards the perfection of God's word?

You accept condemnation in God's word, thereby alienating your neighbors, and cursing the land. If you remove your condemnation, God's earth will not continue toward desolation.



Look! I am sending to you a word of God given to Elijah, in midst of the coming of the perfection of God's will on Earth. Both, great and fearful.

He has turned back the heart of fathers to sons, and the heart of sons to their fathers, so that they know why their land is desolate; the word of God lives selfishly.

 

[RedDragon94]

By God's standard.

What about Genesis 6:11-12? Just because God destroyed the earth because of their wickedness doesn't mean that they couldn't be just as wicked today.

 

[ether-ore]

Paul on obedience/righteousness​

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Galatians 2:21

"...for by the works of the Law no flesh shall be justified." Galatians 2:16

Law of Moses on obedience/righteousness

"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us." Deuteronomy 6:25

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18: 27-28

Which concept does your religion agree with more?

In addition to Galatians 2:16, Paul in Philippians 2:12 also says: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." The question then becomes: how to reconcile these to seemingly contradictory statements. There are two things which Christ's atonement overcomes... death and hell. Death is conquered by the resurrection of Christ who will in turn resurrect all who ever lived on this earth as a free gift. Salvation from hell on the other hand is not a free gift. If one does not repent and be baptized and thenceforth strive to the end of his days to keep the commandments of God, then that individual will have to pay the penalty for his own sins (whereas Christ would have paid the penalty if he had repented) and be separated from God for eternity.

Unlike death, salvation from hell is conditional. The condition being that one repents and strives to keep the commandments of God. Now we all sin, but it is the humble and genuine effort to overcome the carnal through repentance that Christ will recognize and therefore grant that we be saved from hell. It is the repenting and striving to keep the commandments that matters and this is what speaks to "working out one's salvation". No one has "earned" salvation from hell. What a person does by being obedient is to "qualify" themselves according to God's commands to receive what they can never attain on their own. God does not throw His pearls before swine... as it were.

Faith and works are not mutually exclusive concepts. They are both a necessary aspects of a covenant life. A covenant is a two way agreement. Christ sets the parameters of the covenant by saying to us, in essence, that if we keep His commandments, then He will save us from having to pay the penalty for our own sins.

 

[Simplelogic]

The word of God is definitely here, but even here it lacks. Are we to have crazy ideas about people eating on mountains? Or demonize those with imperfect perception? -- Or do we live selflessly, as Ezekiel knew, to raise the world towards the perfection of God's word?

You accept condemnation in God's word, thereby alienating your neighbors, and cursing the land. If you remove your condemnation, God's earth will not continue toward desolation.



Look! I am sending to you a word of God given to Elijah, in midst of the coming of the perfection of God's will on Earth. Both, great and fearful.

He has turned back the heart of fathers to sons, and the heart of sons to their fathers, so that they know why their land is desolate; the word of God lives selfishly.

Did you just say God's word "lacks"???

The mountains refer to "high places" or false idols/temples. Its people worshipping "other gods".

 

[Simplelogic]

In addition to Galatians 2:16, Paul in Philippians 2:12 also says: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." The question then becomes: how to reconcile these to seemingly contradictory statements. There are two things which Christ's atonement overcomes... death and hell. Death is conquered by the resurrection of Christ who will in turn resurrect all who ever lived on this earth as a free gift. Salvation from hell on the other hand is not a free gift. If one does not repent and be baptized and thenceforth strive to the end of his days to keep the commandments of God, then that individual will have to pay the penalty for his own sins (whereas Christ would have paid the penalty if he had repented) and be separated from God for eternity.

Unlike death, salvation from hell is conditional. The condition being that one repents and strives to keep the commandments of God. Now we all sin, but it is the humble and genuine effort to overcome the carnal through repentance that Christ will recognize and therefore grant that we be saved from hell. It is the repenting and striving to keep the commandments that matters and this is what speaks to "working out one's salvation". No one has "earned" salvation from hell. What a person does by being obedient is to "qualify" themselves according to God's commands to receive what they can never attain on their own. God does not throw His pearls before swine... as it were.

Faith and works are not mutually exclusive concepts. They are both a necessary aspects of a covenant life. A covenant is a two way agreement. Christ sets the parameters of the covenant by saying to us, in essence, that if we keep His commandments, then He will save us from having to pay the penalty for our own sins.

Paul's few pro-obedience/law verses should not be elevated amongst the main theme of his message. Paul was a Jew to the Jew and a Greek to the Greek after all. Here are some clear verses where Paul paints the mutually exclusive concept of faith and works.

"Moreover the Law entered that (for this purpose) the offense (sin) might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:20

Again he draws the mutually exclusive picture of Law versus grace in the following.

"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law but under grace." Romans 6:14

Later on in Romans, Paul uses an analogy from the time of Elijah to make his grace-versus-works point.

But what does the divine response say to him (Elijah)? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant (of Israel) according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Romans 11:4-6

Paul's logic is so stood on its head, and his proof demonstrated with smoke and mirrors here that it's almost humorous. It would be if so many didn't actually believe this is the infallible word of God! The only thing that Paul derives from what God said to Elijah is that He had reserved a "remnant" for Himself. Nothing more! Never mind the fact that these seven thousand men had themselves remained true to God's Law and not bowed their knee to Baal! Sounds like works to me! But then, to keep the illusion going, Paul states that this new remnant of saved Israel is "according to the election of grace". This he bases on the assumption that he firmly established the concept of predestination and the election by grace earlier in the infamous passages of Romans 9. This detestable doctrine is itself based on numerous misquotes of Scripture as I have shown. But now Paul continues to build lie on top of lie with the flow of logic that if salvation is by grace, then it is no longer by works; otherwise grace is no longer grace! What utter nonsense! Where is it written that grace and Law (works) are mutually exclusive concepts... other than in Paul's writings? Paul had previously tried to establish this principle that the two concepts cannot go together with this slight-of-hand.

 

[savagewind]

Life under the law means I must know the law and the law rules (is ruler). Life under grace means I must know love and love rules. Even after a person accepts the grace of God and lives to obey love he is still able to stray, thus the law will never become obsolete.

 

[RedDragon94]

By God's standard.

What need is there for grace then?

 

[Sleeppy]

Did you just say God's word "lacks"???

The mountains refer to "high places" or false idols/temples. Its people worshipping "other gods".

Every son sees his Father differently. This is God's will being done. God lacks nothing. When the son of man speaks, he speaks as Adam had. The son of man relies on the wisdom of his fathers, but the wisdom of the fathers will always lack.

All praise to God; knowing all things.

 

[catch22]

Yes. Yeshua was exposing pharisees for keeping the lesser commandments while ignoring the "weightier commands" of the Law. Look at the next verse!

23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. Matt 23: 23

This is not a knock on the written law. Yeshua is actually confirming that the whole written law should be kept. Not parts of it.

Yep. Can you cite or point out one human being who ever kept the entire breadth of the law, never once violating any of it, ever?

Thanks.

 

[Simplelogic]

What need is there for grace then?

So when we fail and fall into temptation we can come back to God and repent.

 

[Simplelogic]

Yep. Can you cite or point out one human being who ever kept the entire breadth of the law, never once violating any of it, ever?

Thanks.

Thats why God created a thing called repentance. The ability to turn from evil and be accepted by God. See Ezekiel 18.