Paul vs "the law" (can humans earn righteousness?)

[Simplelogic]

More on original sin:

Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are “sons of disobedience.” Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all “by nature children of wrath.” If we are all “by nature children of wrath,” it can only be because we are all by nature sinners

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. Ephesians 2:1–3:

Paul is here reminding Christians of what they were like before their conversion to Christ (“you were dead in your trespasses . . . in which you formerly walked”). Thus, all people, until and unless they are converted, are sinners.

 

[savagewind]

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5: 12-13

All do sin because not one person has the power of redemption. Psalms 49:7

 

[Simplelogic]

Nor do Pauline Christian scholars believe that children are innocent (even thought the scriptures plainly state it)
They claim that infants die, therefore they are not innocent
Death — both physical and spiritual — is a result of sin (Romans 5:12; 6:23). Thus, death only comes upon those who have sinned. Since infants die, they therefore must be sinners.

 

[Simplelogic]

All do sin because not one person has the power of redemption. Psalms 49:7

Thats not what Psalm 49: 7 says. Men all sin because we choose to sin during our lifetime. Not because we are born sinful like Paul states.

 

[savagewind]

Nor do Pauline Christian scholars believe that children are innocent (even thought the scriptures plainly state it)
They claim that infants die, therefore they are not innocent
Death — both physical and spiritual — is a result of sin (Romans 5:12; 6:23). Thus, death only comes upon those who have sinned. Since infants die, they therefore must be sinners.

It just means that there is a separation between the sinner and God. Sin means separated from. It doesn't mean criminal mischief.

 

[savagewind]

Thats not what Psalm 49: 7 says. Men all sin because we choose to sin during our lifetime. Not because we are born sinful like Paul states.

No one is born with the power to save.

 

[Simplelogic]

It just means that there is a separation between the sinner and God. Sin means separated from. It doesn't mean criminal mischief.

I disagree. Sin literally means to transgress the commandments of God.

 

[savagewind]

I disagree. Sin literally means to transgress the commandments of God.

YOU say so. Sin means powerlessness over will. The power to not sin belongs to God. Being separated from God means sin.
Does God command anyone to do the will of God? No! God commands us to quit sinning. Do you know the difference?

 

[Simplelogic]

Paul says that none is righteous under the law, that obedience to the law justifies no one before God, and that the law was a curse:

Ro 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Ro 3:19 - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 3:10 - For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

But the Lord Jesus says there were many who were righteous under the law:

Mt 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Mt 23:3 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mt 23:29 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

 

[savagewind]

What is the difference between refraining from sin and accomplishing the will of God?

Matthew 6: 9 - 11

 

[Simplelogic]

YOU say so. Sin means powerlessness over will. The power to not sin belongs to God. Being separated from God means sin.
Does God command anyone to do the will of God? No! God commands us to quit sinning. Do you know the difference?

Not my definition.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

 

[savagewind]

Paul says that none is righteous under the law, that obedience to the law justifies no one before God, and that the law was a curse:

Ro 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Ro 3:19 - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 3:10 - For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

But the Lord Jesus says there were many who were righteous under the law:

Mt 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Mt 23:3 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mt 23:29 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

I see. I think you must broaden your scope. David was called righteous. He caused the shameful death of a man. OK?
There is a difference between being all right (nobody is) and being relatively right.

 

[savagewind]

Not my definition.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

I don't think that is what 1 John 3:4 says. It says sin is lawlessness. Maybe more rightly lovelessness.

 

[savagewind]

Actually it looks like 1 John 3:4 is saying that failure is sin.

 

[Simplelogic]

What is the difference between refraining from sin and accomplishing the will of God?

Matthew 6: 9 - 11

This verse only proves my point. Yeshua is telling us not to do our works in front of men to be seen by them.

I see. I think you must broaden your scope. David was called righteous. He caused the shameful death of a man. OK?
There is a difference between being all right (nobody is) and being relatively right.

You assume that to be righteous one needs to be perfect. This is not how it all works.

Regarding King David. If God called David righteous then that means he was righteous.

 

[Simplelogic]

Actually it looks like 1 John 3:4 is saying that failure is sin.

It says sin is transgressing the law. This means disobedience.

 

[savagewind]

This verse only proves my point. Yeshua is telling us not to do our works in front of men to be seen by them.

No! It's the Lord's prayer.

You assume that to be righteous one needs to be perfect. This is not how it all works.

No, I do not believe in perfection. I think that nothing is or will be perfect.

Regarding King David. If God called David righteous then that means he was righteous.

OK. I do not disagree

 

[savagewind]

It says sin is transgressing the law. This means disobedience.

That is what you say it says. Look it up please. http://biblehub.com/text/1_john/3-4.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/266.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/458.htm

 

[Simplelogic]

More "righteous men" in the NT:

Elizabeth and Zechariah, the parents of John the Baptist: Lu 1:6 - And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Simeon, who waited to see the Messiah: Lu 2:25 - And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Joseph the husband of Mary, and Mary herself who was chosen to be Jesus’ mother: Mt 1:19 - Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example,was minded to put her away privily.

John the Baptist: Mr 6:20 - For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.

 

[Simplelogic]

That is what you say it says. Look it up please. http://biblehub.com/text/1_john/3-4.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/266.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/458.htm

It literally says "sin is lawlessness".