Peace & Security or Sudden Destruction?

[2ndpillar]

Wow! I thought you were simply throwing Paul out with the bath water, like many are wont to do with scripture, but you believe Paul was chosen by God to be a false prophet. Are you asserting Peter was a false prophet too?

Peter and Paul were chosen as the two "staffs" to "pasture the flock for slaughter", which was the Gentile church. Peter was simply a "worthless shepherd" who would not feed, care or tend the sheep, but leave the flock (the lost sheep of the house of Israel) (Zechariah 11:16-17). Paul wound up as a false prophet, claiming to speak for God. And apparently, you wound up being a follower of Paul. Where is Paul right now? Are you sure you want to go down that road? What will happen to the Gentile church, the "flock doomed to slaughter"? Look to Zechariah 11:9 to find out. And it has nothing to do with Barabbas. The time for the judgment of the nations/Gentiles, is now at hand (Joel 3:2 & 12). Judgment will start with Judah, but find its heavy hand to the nations/Gentiles (Jeremiah 31:11). You might want to reconsider the "falsehoods" "inherited" from "our fathers" (Jeremiah 16:19).

 

[Oeste]

Thanks @2ndpillar! So it's not just Paul, but you managed to lump Peter in there too!

Let me guess...do you also believe Christians still under the Law?

 

[2ndpillar]

Thanks @2ndpillar! So it's not just Paul, but you managed to lump Peter in there too!

Let me guess...do you also believe Christians still under the Law?

Certainly not. "Christian", the followers of Paul, have been "released from the Law" (Romans 7:6), and keep the "law of sin" with their "flesh" (Romans 7:25). As for Zechariah 11, there are three (3) shepherds involved. Judas Iscariot is lumped in as well (Zechariah 11:8 & 12-13). As for followers of Yeshua, they certainly must keep the commandments to enter into life (Matthew 19:17). To be called "great" in the kingdom of heaven, one must keep and teach them (Matthew 5:19). Those who do not, will be called "least" as in Saul being called Paul, in which "least" would be the superlative of Paul (little), as Paul is always foremost in all things, such as the foremost sinner. As for Peter, he was chosen because of his over inflated ego. Judas, because of his love of money, and Paul, because of his Napoleon complex.

Napoleon was also all things to all men:
Napoleon himself gave proclamations and bulletins that are just as elusive; in Egypt he claimed he was a friend of Islam, fighting for Egypt and Muhammed; in Italy he claimed he was fighting for their freedom; in France, he claimed it was for the glory of France, to create a new Rome
https://www.quora.com/What-was-Napoleon-trying-to-achieve-what...

 

[Oeste]

As for Peter, he was chosen because of his over inflated ego. Judas, because of his love of money, and Paul, because of his Napoleon complex.

So you allege Paul was chosen "because of his Napoleon complex" 1700 years before Napoleon was born, or are you saying Napoleon was unfairly mislabeled and actually had a Paul complex?

 

[2ndpillar]

So you allege Paul was chosen "because of his Napoleon complex" 1700 years before Napoleon was born, or are you saying Napoleon was unfairly mislabeled and actually had a Paul complex?

Now that you mention it, as Napoleon was "all things to all men", and he was proceeded by Paul, who "was all things to all men", maybe you have a point, but if someone in Napoleon's time, told him he had a Paul complex, he might have been sent to the Eastern front, if Napoleon didn't like the connotation. But then again, as they were of kindred spirits, maybe he would take it well, but not like it to be made public. You get two stars **.

 

[Oeste]

Now that you mention it, as Napoleon was "all things to all men", and he was proceeded by Paul, who "was all things to all men", maybe you have a point, but if someone in Napoleon's time, told him he had a Paul complex, he might have been killed, if Napoleon didn't like the connotation. But then again, as they were of kindred spirits, maybe he would take it well, but not like it to be made public. You get two stars **.

I don't agree with your synopsis of Paul and/or Peter, but you do have a sense of humor, and for that, two stars back at you!

Even though we can disagree, it's important to remember the words of Jesus, keeping in mind the spirit in which he gave them:

John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us. whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.(Mark 9:38-41)
​

Thanks for the cup @2ndpillar! It's late where I am, time for bed. Have a good evening.

 

[2ndpillar]

John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us. whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.(Mark 9:38-41)

Well, the tares were under protection to fulfill their role (Matthew 13:27-29). They could cast out demons in my name, prophesy in my name, and work miracles in my name, but at the end of the day, such as the "end of the age", Yeshua will say, " I never knew you, depart from me you who practice lawlessness. (Matthew 7:22-23) & (Matthew 13:41). Without darkness, why would you need a light. The tares have a purpose, and so does the leader of the tares, the devil (Matthew 13:39), and his right hand man, Paul.

 

[nPeace]

I think you see "Only we follow Christ" and constant comparisons with the church across the street as some sort of spiritual strength. I see it as a spiritual sickness.

Whom do you see making "constant comparisons with the church across the street as some sort of spiritual strength"? Can you also show this... without going back decades into the past.

Times change. What works, works.

When convenient, some also find it easy to say God doesn't change.

Agreed.

Distributing scrolls would be like distributing Watchtower's on I-Pads. Many would accept the scroll, but it wouldn't be for the message inside.

Besides, the message is being carried to the Gentiles where literacy rates were not high.

The WT magazine is not the Bible. Nor are the thousands of Bible study aids produced by JWs.
So what is your point regarding the picture in the magazine of the early Christians going door to door carrying scrolls?
I hope you were not thinking that they were distributing these.
The picture corresponds to carrying the Bible, and sharing its message... not carrying magazines.

Agreed.

Then we profoundly disagree. Scripture is God's "message" to mankind. We cannot separate one scripture and say "this is the message" and point to another and say "this is not". But your response certainly gives me a lot of insight as to why JW's believe "the truth" (as they call it) need not be true.

I think you ought to give careful thought to what you are saying here.
The scriptures are as Paul said, at 2 Timothy 3:16, 17. However, I specifically referred to the message of Jesus, which he preached, and commanded to be preached - the message of the good news of the Kingdom of God. Reference to this message is made perhaps hundreds of times by Jesus and his followers.

Spoiler: The message is the news of the kingdom

Matthew 4:17 From that time on, Jesus began preaching and saying: “Repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”
Luke 4:43 But he said to them: “I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.”
Luke 8:1-3 1 Shortly afterward he traveled from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the Kingdom of God. And the Twelve were with him, 2 as were certain women who had been cured of wicked spirits and sicknesses: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod’s man in charge; Susanna; and many other women, who were ministering to them from their belongings.
Luke 9:60 But he said to him: “Let the dead bury their dead, but you go and declare abroad the Kingdom of God.”
Luke 16:16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on, the Kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it.
Acts 1:3 After he had suffered, he showed himself alive to them by many convincing proofs. He was seen by them throughout 40 days, and he was speaking about the Kingdom of God.
Acts 8:12 . . .they believed Philip, who was declaring the good news of the Kingdom of God and of the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were getting baptized.
Acts 19:8 Entering the synagogue, for three months he spoke with boldness, giving talks and reasoning persuasively about the Kingdom of God.
Acts 28:23 . . .from morning to evening, he explained the matter to them by bearing thorough witness concerning the Kingdom of God, to persuade them about Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets.
Acts 28:30, 31 30 So he remained there for an entire two years in his own rented house, and he would kindly receive all those who came to him, 31 preaching the Kingdom of God to them and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with the greatest freeness of speech, without hindrance.

Surely you are not saying this has changed, are you? I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on who changed it, and when.

As regards your statement that "Scripture is God's "message" to mankind", I believe you already know that JWs view all scripture as beneficial. However, there are clearly many things Christians are not obligated to observe, nor preach.
For example, one of Jesus' zealous servants said, "By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace," (Ephesians 2:15)
So we don't preach circumcision, and animal sacrifices, and the eating, or not eating of certain foods, etc.
Colossians 2:16 Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath.

Surely you know that don't you, and you understood my point, didn't you?
There is no sidestepping the issue.

Spoiler: Followers of the Christ, do as he commanded - Matthew 24:14

And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

If "God's word is truth" is not part of the "good news of the Kingdom of God" message then the entire message is useless. There would be nothing to prevent the "good news" from becoming "no news" or even "bad news", much like the WT's back and forth message on Sodom and Gomorrah.

I don't recall saying that God's word is truth is not part of the "good news of the Kingdom of God" message.
Interesting though that you should say, "the "good news of the Kingdom of God" message".
Isn't that a clear indication that you understand there were many messages, and they were different? Seems that way to me.
For example, Jonah had a message, didn't he... and it was recorded in the Bible. We learn a lot from it, but it is not the message Jesus preached, and commanded to preach.

So again, Jesus said God's word is truth. That was not the message.
Over 90% of the world's population possess, or had possessed , or have the opportunity to possess a Bible, yet that doesn't mean that they possess the truth. Nor does it mean they know its message.

Every supremacist group is "united in love" but it is a self-love with little, if any love. spared for others. They have worldwide brotherhoods and they are united in teaching...in every land they dwell. They actively recruit utilizing every method at their disposal, and they magnify the fault of others but have little eye to fault themselves.

I do not consider such things a "mark" of Christians.

Strawman...
Jesus said, (John 13:35) . . .By this all will know that you are my disciples - if you have love among yourselves.”
I believe Jesus meant love.
Nowhere did I say, "self-love".
JWs are united in love, as a worldwide brotherhood. The evidence can be seen in a few obvious facts, which is as a result of their being united in teachings worldwide, of the one God they worship - Jehovah.
If the latter were not true, the former could not be true.

Shame on Christianity! Had they just called their clergy laity class the "Governing Board" allowing them to "lord it over the flock" by giving credence and reverence to their every utterance, providing honorary titles like "Elder", "Ministerial Servant" and "Circuit Overseer", and replaced their robes with a fine suit, tie and polished shoes there would be no problem!!

But even with that they would still not match the Watchtower, which claims they have no clergy-laity in the congregations, but claim clergy-penitent privilege in the courts. While such double speak makes no sense to most of us, it's all part and parcel of "the truth™" for Witnesses.

Seriously... This one gave me a good laugh.
Can you do any better than this?
Feeling around in darkness is just madness Oeste, and grabbing at straws which are not there, causes one to look like a madman. This is just one of those extremely desperate feeble attempts, that has no logic.
So I am not sure how to respond to it.
It's hilarious Oeste. Surprisingly...

Let me attempt however, to give you an opportunity to defend what seems to be an irrational response, with this...
How does the GB "lord it over the flock"?
What is unscriptural about terms such as "Elder", "Ministerial Servant" and "Circuit Overseer"?
What evidence do you have that any of JWs (GB members included) do not preach?
Finally...

What`s wrong with a fine suit, tie and polished shoes... and what evidence do you have that only GB members wear a fine suit, tie and polished shoes?
Oh my... I can't help it. Sorry Oeste.

 

[nPeace]

I don’t understand how you can say your leaders are fallible in one sentence yet have no plank in the other. We all have planks, but the WT’s “truth” that our Creator promised to usher in the “New System” before the 1914 generation passed away was is not a strawman. For decades it was “the truth”.

Doesn't sound like something I would say.
I never heard any JW refer to anyone on earth as their leader. Christ? Yes. Men? No.
So you are saying you have a plank in your eye. How nice of you to admit it.
Ah. Here we go again. Let's dig up another bone for our agenda. <shaking my head>

This distraction is worn out. Next.

Agreed.

I sure do…especially since we are all imperfect! Now please…show us where the Governing Board apologized and repented for their past mistakes.

But wait... You can find articles which go all the way back to 1920, and you can't find those?
Perhaps the plank is too large Oeste. Extracting it might help.
Perhaps you prefer not to, so that you can focus on your agenda.

Are you referring to how some religions focus and get stuck on mistakes of other religious leaders, like the Pope, or to your own, like the Governing Board, and will we use the same measuring rod to judge other leaders as we judge our own?

Please, don't be so vague. Give me an example, so that I know what you are talking about.

Well let’s take a look at Moses first because he’s an interesting one for you to bring up:

Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the tent of meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the LORD appeared to them. The LORD said to Moses,

“Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink.”

So Moses took the staff from the LORD’s presence, just as he commanded him.

He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”​

Obviously Moses’ meekness did not mean he could ignore the Word of God by adding his own embellishments. Jehovah did not say “Oh, I forgot you were fallible and imperfect”. Since Moses lost the right to lead his people to the Promised Land with this grave sin it's certainly reasonable for others to suspect your Governing Board has lost the same.

Huh?

This one is much easier:

“David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die’” (2 Sam. 12:13).

You also alluded to how Jehovah viewed David when you cited 2 Samuel 24:10:

10 But David’s heart was struck with remorse after he had numbered the people. David then said to Jehovah: “I have sinned greatly by doing this. And now, Jehovah, please forgive your servant’s error, for I have acted very foolishly.”​

Now please…tell us where your Governing Board confessed their sin against the Lord, so that we will know the Lord has put away their sin.


In the above examples of Moses and David, the “nitty gritty” came down to whether the prophets recognized their error, confessed it, apologized and repented. Once this is done the sin is delayed or the punishment is forgotten. However, when they refuse to apologize and repent, the sin is remembered, regardless of whether it’s a day, a week, a month or a hundred years.

Cool. Whom did they apologize to?
If you answer, "Jehovah", we agree.

Thank you! And as I explained to you earlier, I do not “hate” on Jehovah Witnesses. I simply disagree with many of their teachings. Personally I believe the vast majority of them love the Lord, but it is truly unfortunate that they’re not allowed to acknowledge other groups or even former members that do the same.

How can you tell that they love the Lord? Is it not by their willingness to obey God's word, come what may?
So does that not involve obeying such scriptures as 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 and 2 Corinthians 6:14-18?

We can't pick and choose which instructions are easier for us to carry out, and then say that we love the Lord. That would be lying, would it not? Jesus said, “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. ..." Matthew 7:21.
Yes. According to Jesus, we show that we love the Lord, by keeping his commandment, which includes preaching the message of good news of God's kingdom.
(John 14:15) . . .“If you love me, you will observe my commandments.
(John 8:31) . . .“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples,

When the skeptics and atheists come (and they are all over this Board) I fully enjoy the contributions JW’s make in defending the bible. I may not always agree with what they say, but when it comes to the bible being the word of God we are definitely on the same page. I see no way to find fault with this. It is simply what we are called to do…to fight the good fight to the glory of God.

2 Corinthians 10:3-6

Yes, JW’s become remorseful, they apologize, and they repent. I just do not see this with your Governing Board. From my perspective your Governing Board requires Witnesses to engage in Godly spiritual activities they consider themselves to "humble" to engage in. It is the definition of hubris.

As far as I know, it is the scriptures that require all of those who would follow Christ, to engage in Godly and spiritual activities - primarily what Jesus said. Matthew 34:14; 28:18-20.
The congregation in the first century had that arrangement, and it seems to me that for any who claim to belong to the Lord's organization, it would be expected they would be preaching along with the congregation today.

It is possible to claim to belong to something, and not really belong.
I could claim to belong to a football team, and never play football at all. Right?

Are you claiming that the members of the GB of JWs don't share in the ministry? Please supply your evidence to show this.

You know I cannot stay away. JW’s believe “Christendom” is wrong, but do they stay away? So I cannot follow advice that you yourself would not follow. We are all called to “…be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have…” (1 Peter 3:15)

I think you are being vague here again.
Perhaps you can be clear as to what you mean.

God willing, we’ll have plenty of opportunities to scripturally challenge Watchtower beliefs on this forum. But I also realize that the vast majority of WT truth is subject to change, from one publication to the next, from one Assembly to the other, as they make continued “adjustments” to the word of God. What you believe now is not what you will believe later and it’s quite possible there may be no need to challenge anything if we simply wait long enough.

As for “ancient” the sin remains until they apologize to the Lord and repent. God waited 300 years to punish the non-repentant Amalekites who must also have considered their sin “ancient”.

Pardon me... JWs do not make adjustments to the word of God.
This must be stated clearly. JWs make adjustments to their understanding of the word of God.
It's becoming clearer and clearer to me that you like looking at Watchtowers with that plank firmly lodged. It seems you have difficulty reading it properly. Or perhaps you see things in your own light.

Then you have complied with 1 Peter 3:15. You have done it respectfully and with aplomb. It’s all anyone on the forum could ask.

Thank you.

Agreed! I cannot convince or convict you of anything…that is the job of the Spirit.

I want to thank you for an extremely enjoyable, lively and educational discussion @nPeace. It has been a pleasure. Perhaps one day we shall meet when we both no longer see in shadow but in full truth (1 Corinthians 13:12).

We can then relax, share a good drink and a laugh.

Well I am not sure what made it enjoyable for you, so I'm not drinking any champagne with you.
It would be nice though if we met in paradise and did have plenty drinks and good laughs. Evidently, that's up to the choices we make - including our religious beliefs and association.

 

[nPeace]

That's a rather pessimistic view as for most of the world the chances of us being killed in a violent death have never been lower at any other point in history and it keeps getting lower. Europe has been nearly a century without any major internal wars. Sure there is violence in the Middle East and parts of Africa, but for most people in most other places we're just not being killed off in violence or war like we used to and instead we're consistently living long enough to die from complications of aging, and we're creating a concern for states who are having to manage aging populations like never before.

Some call it a pessimistic view, while others call it a realistic view.
The data shows that major problems continues to increase worldwide.
A volcano may seem quiet, before it belches, but it's not that there wasn't any activity. Sometimes it's just that some factors are overlooked.

List of the most urgent global problems
Problem areas we’ve not yet investigated
There are many global problems we have not yet investigated at length. Below we list some areas we’ve at least briefly considered.

Areas we've not investigated but consider less promising

• Education in poor countries – health seems somewhat more promising, read more

• Certain types of education in rich countries – they could rate well, though broad based education reform seems crowded and hard to improve.

• Overpopulation and resource scarcity – it’s unclear how serious the problem is, and substantial effort already goes into avoiding resource shortages. Read more here and here

• General efforts to speed up technological and economic growth, as opposed to differential technological development.

These Are the World's 10 Most Serious Problems, According to Millennials
10. Lack of economic opportunity and employment (12.1%)
9. Safety / security / wellbeing (14.1%)
8. Lack of education (15.9%)
7. Food and water security (18.2%)
6. Government accountability and transparency / corruption (22.7%)
5. Religious conflicts (23.9%)
4. Poverty (29.2%)
3. Inequality (income, discrimination) (30.8%)
2. Large scale conflict / wars (38.9%)
1. Climate change / destruction of nature (48.8%)

 

[savagewind]

But wait... You can find articles which go all the way back to 1920, and you can't find those?
Perhaps the plank is too large Oeste. Extracting it might help.
Perhaps you prefer not to, so that you can focus on your agenda.

"Those" to mean published apologies by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Unbelievable! The GB leads the flock in thought and deed so saying they don't lead is a lie. Sometimes, they have misled the flock and that is what they should apologize for. To say that a published change of opinion by them is an apology is ridiculous and quite the lie. Is new light now for you that you may lie?

Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are detestable to Jehovah, But those acting faithfully bring pleasure to him.

 

[savagewind]

It would be a SAFE BET to bet that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses has NEVER apologized for ANYTHING.

But, by saying that they have can possibly lead a person to sift through the MOUNTAIN of words by them to find it. It isn't there, so please, don't waste your time. There are better things to do and all good too.

 

[Woberts]

Woberts,
You mean you are throwing away everlasting life, in a paradise earth, without even getting to know the best Father anyone could have, The Almighty God, Jehovah, who wants the best for everyone, and is able to do all He wants to do.

Fortunately, your genocidal prick of a god doesn't exist.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some call it a pessimistic view, while others call it a realistic view.
The data shows that major problems continues to increase worldwide.

No one claims we have fixed all the worlds problems, nor that we don't have much more work to go yet. But when it comes to violence, most of the world has never been more safe and secure. A realistic view includes the data that shows some countries are even enjoying their longest period of border/territory stability. Of course there is still violence and murder, from throughout the East and West your chances of being the victim of violence and being killed in a violent act has never been lower. It could still happen, but it's hardly a doomsday scenario that shows no hope or promise of getting better. It is getting better.

 

[12jtartar]

Fortunately, your genocidal prick of a god doesn't exist.

Elbert’s,
There are many who seem to have a death wish, but when you find something in Gods word that you disagree with, would it not be better to study the Word of God to try better to understand.
God’s word tells us that all Gods works are perfect, Deuteronomy 32:4. The. Bible says; Far be it for the true God to do wickedness, Job 34:10, also that God is perfect in knowledge, Job 36:4. The Bible also says that there are things that God has done that man Cannot understand, Job 37:5. God Cannot lie, Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2. Since God’s thinking is on a much higher plain than ours, what gives you, a mortal whose life is in God’s hand, the right to condemn or question The Almighty, Job 40:2, or will you condemnThe Almighty God, so that you are justified, Job 40:8.
After considering The Almighty, All knowing, Immortal God, and comparing His existence with yours, mortal, knowing almost nothing, subject to die at any moment that God takes away Your Spirit, I think I will chose to believe God instead of you.

 

[Oeste]

Whom do you see making "constant comparisons with the church across the street as some sort of spiritual strength"?

Jehovah Witnesses, of course. They constantly compare themselves with “Christendom”. Amazingly they always present themselves as coming out on top.

Can you also show this... without going back decades into the past.

Does the “truth” in your Organization have an expiration date? My whole point is that unless one apologizes and repents of their sin the sin remains. If the WT apologizes and repents I couldn’t go a day into the past because the sin would have been forgiven!

Sins are not like Watchtower truths…they don’t expire simply because time has passed. If we can’t believe what you told us 2 decades ago, then we certainly can’t believe what you tell us now, because in another 20 years what you tell us now will be just as bogus as what you told us 20 years ago.

If you believe your truth expires, then be upfront and honest about it. Print expiration or ‘Best used by…’ dates on your magazines and publications. Then support these dates with scripture!

When convenient, some also find it easy to say God doesn't change.

I’m not sure what this has to do with “traditional outreach”. People are not God. People change, situations change, and different times and places call for different methods of outreach.

The WT magazine is not the Bible. Nor are the thousands of Bible study aids produced by JWs.

Agreed.

So what is your point regarding the picture in the magazine of the early Christians going door to door carrying scrolls?

The picture came from a WT article “Faith in Action”. The point was apparent… to reinforce the aberrant, scripturally unsound notion that early Christians were required to go “door to door” distributing expensive scrolls to profess their faith… just like JW’s distribute WT’s today.

The only thing missing from the illustration were the “time cards” kept by the apostles.

I think you ought to give careful thought to what you are saying here.

The scriptures are as Paul said, at 2 Timothy 3:16, 17. However, I specifically referred to the message of Jesus, which he preached, and commanded to be preached - the message of the good news of the Kingdom of God. Reference to this message is made perhaps hundreds of times by Jesus and his followers.

The truth is always true. So if your message of the Kingdom of God includes things that just aren’t true, then your message is useless. What good is a message when you can’t trust the messenger to reliably convey the message?

Surely you are not saying this has changed, are you? I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on who changed it, and when.

The Watchtower has changed it on several occasions. We heard the false “good news” …the Kingdom of God was to come in 1914, then 1925, then 1940, etc.

As regards your statement that "Scripture is God's "message" to mankind", I believe you already know that JWs view all scripture as beneficial. However, there are clearly many things Christians are not obligated to observe, nor preach.
For example, one of Jesus' zealous servants said, "By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace," (Ephesians 2:15)
So we don't preach circumcision, and animal sacrifices, and the eating, or not eating of certain foods, etc.

Agreed.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath.

Surely you know that don't you, and you understood my point, didn't you?

Why would any Witness cite this verse when the Watchtower has already judged “Christendom’s” observance of festivals as “pagan”?

There is no sidestepping the issue.

And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

This verse makes it apparent JW’s did not preach the “good news of the Kingdom” because the end did not come as your “good news if you're in the Watchtower” had promised. Your Organization made repeated in consistent attempts to attach a false witness to the Divine Name! Imagine..."Jehovah's Witnesses" proclaiming a false witness in the name of Jehovah God! How much easier your job would be here and the next if your Governing Board wasn't too "humble" to apologize!

There’s nothing “good” about putting words into God’s mouth that He did not speak, and until your Organization apologizes and repents, it cannot sidestep its sin.

So yes, the good news of the Kingdom will be preached (and is being preached) which is why there are over 1 billion in the church today. The end will also come when the full measure of gentiles are brought in, but has not and will not come at the convenience or behest of any false Watchtower prophesy. That, thank God, is simply "the truth".

 

[12jtartar]

It would be a SAFE BET to bet that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses has NEVER apologized for ANYTHING.

But, by saying that they have can possibly lead a person to sift through the MOUNTAIN of words by them to find it. It isn't there, so please, don't waste your time. There are better things to do and all good too.

savagewind,
Ok, say that the GB failed to tell everyone that they are sorry for having a wrong understanding of Scripture. Exactly what has that to do with YOUR everlasting Life???
Back in the Israelite days when the Nation of Israel was God’s Chosen people, many times the leaders went wrong, and God sent Prophets to warn the people. Never did God tell the people to leave the Nation of Israel!!!God brought calamity on the leaders and any that followed their wicked ways.
The Bible tells us that God has had His word written so that even babes can understand His word, Luke 10:21. We are all going to stand before the Judgement Seat of God, and give an account for ourselves.
The GB does an unbelievable amount of work to keep the Gospel of the Kingdom taught around the world.
There is no other religion on earth, that has, anywhere near the truth, as the GB teaches. The truth of the message makes the difference, as to whether God accepts Worship, John 4:23,24.
I read the information critically, that the GB writes, and I disagree with a few things, but they are very much closer than any other Faith. Where could I go to??? Maybe, before Jesus returns they will correct some things, or maybe I am wrong.
We will all stand before the Judgement Seat for ourselves!!!

 

[Oeste]

I don't recall saying that God's word is truth is not part of the "good news of the Kingdom of God" message.

Sure you did. You did it two ways:

1. When you stated the truth was not the message:

Jesus said God's word is truth. That was not the message.

2. When you have to make yet another 180˚ “adjustment” to a former “truth”.

Interesting though that you should say, "the "good news of the Kingdom of God" message".
Isn't that a clear indication that you understand there were many messages, and they were different? Seems that way to me.

Scriptural message are always been true. Your Organization’s message is rarely true. There was never a promise from the Creator to bring in a new world before the generation of 1914 passed away. It was a lie, straight and simple, from your Governing Board.

For example, Jonah had a message, didn't he... and it was recorded in the Bible. We learn a lot from it, but it is not the message Jesus preached, and commanded to preach.

Sorry, but Jonah cannot be used to justify false prophesies.

Remember what God stated previously:

At any time I might announce that a nation or kingdom will be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed. But if that nation I warned turns from its evil, then I will relent of the disaster I had planned to inflict. (Jeremiah 18:7-8)​

With this scripture in mind we can now turn to Nineveh, which Jonah had prophesied against:

When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:

“By the decree of the king and his nobles:

Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”

When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened. Jonah 3: 6-10​

In startling contrast, the Watchtower, which audaciously claims to be Jehovah’s sole prophet on earth, falsely predicted the overthrow of the earth’s governments. If you want to use Jonah as an example then all the WT need do is show us when and where these governments acted like Ninevah. That is, when and where they apologized and repented.

Barring this, your Organization is still a false prophet. Like Ninevah it must apologize and repent to have its sin forgiven or it's subject to suffering the same measure it so badly wants God to measure to everyone else...no matter how many decades have passed.

So again, Jesus said God's word is truth. That was not the message.

“God’s word is truth” underlies every message in the bible. If truth is not the message you bring then the message is not from God.

Truth is not “optional” nor is it “mutually exclusive” to any other message borne of God and His prophets.

Over 90% of the world's population possess, or had possessed or have the opportunity to possess a Bible, yet that doesn't mean that they possess the truth. Nor does it mean they know its message.

Are they quoting passages or adding their own embellishments? Christians are not tasked to add or subtract from the biblical message. Your Organization consistently goes beyond what was written, demanding we listen as if it were the voice of God!

It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision. Source:​

How do you present yourself as "Jehovah's" Witness one moment, assure us you are the "sole channel of communication" to which we must respond as if we heard "the voice of God" the next, then tell us not everything you stated in this capacity was true a week later?

If your witness is wrong one publication to the next, then the Apostle's message is wrong, one verse to the next, and your "witness" makes a mockery of all the prophets that came before you!

There is simply no excuse for this and the only avenue is apology and repentance. If you see some other way, please explain it and document it with scripture.

 

[savagewind]

The Bible tells us that God has had His word written so that even babes can understand His word, Luke 10:21. We are all going to stand before the Judgement Seat of God, and give an account for ourselves.

I read the information critically, that the GB writes, and I disagree with a few things, but they are very much closer than any other Faith. Where could I go to??? Maybe, before Jesus returns they will correct some things, or maybe I am wrong.
We will all stand before the Judgement Seat for ourselves!!!

Can you see that you are contradicting yourself? Babes can understand it so why does the governing body teach that they only can understand it?

 

[Oeste]

Strawman...
Jesus said, (John 13:35) . . .By this all will know that you are my disciples - if you have love among yourselves.”
I believe Jesus meant love.
Nowhere did I say, "self-love".

You belong to a supremacist group. I would have no problem if you simply preached God is supreme, but you add your Organization to the mix, proclaiming it alone has “true worship” that is “clean and undefiled”.

JWs are united in love, as a worldwide brotherhood. The evidence can be seen in a few obvious facts, which is as a result of their being united in teachings worldwide, of the one God they worship - Jehovah.
If the latter were not true, the former could not be true.

Sounds like you’re describing your groups’ self-love to me. Virtually every supremacist group is united in teachings and brotherhood worldwide. A distinguishing mark of these groups is the sense of superiority and disdain they feel for any other group but themselves.

Seriously... This one gave me a good laugh.
Can you do any better than this?

Can Witnesses answer the blatant hypocrisy of their Organization? Of course not, so they laugh it off instead. You just screamed about Christendom’s “clergy laity class” forgetting you have such a class yourself, and your Organization claims no clergy laity distinction…unless they’re filing a brief in court to protect themselves from another child abuse allegation. If it weren’t so sad it would be hilarious.

Feeling around in darkness is just madness Oeste, and grabbing at straws which are not there, causes one to look like a madman. This is just one of those extremely desperate feeble attempts, that has no logic.

I agree…but “feeling around in darkness” is an apt description of the Watchtower’s failed prophesies and doctrines .

Let me attempt however, to give you an opportunity to defend what seems to be an irrational response, with this...
How does the GB "lord it over the flock"?

Thank you for the opportunity.

I think one very good example were the “bedroom laws”. For example, getting the elders involved when a marriage partner insisted or desired oral copulation. Your Organization constantly wades in to their member's bedrooms and has never apologized nor repented for the resulting debacles.

The bedroom laws are a good topic to discuss, because it shows how the WT can go back and forth, "tacking" from truth to falsehood and falsehood to truth, just as scripture warns us:

Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won't be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth. (Ephesians 4:14, NLT)​

Oral or anal sex between married couples is:

1. ? Prior to 1974
2. A disfellowshipping offence since 1974
3. No longer a disfellowshipping offence since 1978
4. A disfellowshipping offence since 1983
5. Vague since 2011

Rather than make this a decision between husband and wife, your Organization decided to wade in and make your elders Lords of the muddied waters. There was never a need for them to get involved in this.

Oh my... I can't help it. Sorry Oeste.

I know you can’t, but it’s fun to see you try.

In any event, as stated previously, your “truth” is always in a high state of flux and change. For example, you worshiped Jesus for nearly 150 years. It was even part of your charter. Then Christ was dumped as unworthy of worship not because of any change in scripture but through a change in WT articles. This goes to the core of WT belief: If you don’t like a WT “truth” just wait an issue… it’ll probably change.

It’s also why we can’t believe or take seriously anything Witnesses say at our front door, because what you tell us is God’s truth today you’ll assure us is not true by the morrow.