People are being manipulated into hating Muslims

[jeager106]

That wouldn't surprise me.


They believe it as strongly as Christians believe Christ was crucified and returned in three days. That's not to say most want to test the hypothesis out.

Good point.
Still most Christians don't plant bombs or execute innocent people for perceived
"evil" behavior.
There are plenty of radical Christians however.
Want to pass around a basket of rattlesnakes to prove faith?
Westboro Baptist Church?

 

[Aupmanyav]

IF what they said was true, how come my Muslim friends have never force converted me?

They would have done that if you were living in a Muslim country or would have made your life so miserable that you would have had to leave? The whole Hindu population of Kashmir valley was forced to leave with murders and rapes (more than 3 hundred thousand). It is Muslims themselves who are manipulating people to hate them. The Christians did it all over the world. They are still doing it in the jungles of South America. If the Muslims do not have other people to oppress, they oppress their own - Shias, Ahmadiyyas, Yazidis, Druze, etc. It is a property of monotheistic religions.

 

[Moishe3rd]

After having read your post the first thing I must say is that I completely agree with you. You cannot compare the Christian message to the Islamic message. They are completely different.

Frequently I have heard people, including other atheists, liberals of all stripes, and Muslims, claiming that ISIS and other radical groups are not true Muslims. I disagree. My point was to underscore my belief that when we hear moderate Muslims asserting that the radicals are not Muslims, all we have is another example of deeply conservative religious folk not recognizing the other as true believers. I've heard secular Muslims say openly that the radicals are Muslim. In mentioning Christians I was only pointing out that deeply conservative religious folk make a practice of only accepting their own as true believers. I didn't want to centre out Muslims as the only ones to do this.

There is a long history of Sunnis killing and persecuting Shias, and vice versa, because they did not see one another as true believers, and there is an equally long history of both persecuting other minority Muslim groups for the same reason. ISIS and their ilk are deeply religious, conservative Muslims, and the dangerous part of all this is that it is a literal reading of the Koran that makes this possible.

The only problem of course, is that there is a long history of any kind of Muslim killing any other kind of Muslim - not just Sunni and Shia but ever possible sect and faction and subgroup all murdering each other....
And, unfortunately, the same was true of Christianity up until recently, historically speaking. And was even true regarding Jews 2,000 plus years ago...

The "messages" may have been different but, put into practical use, the end result was pretty much the same - slaughtering each other over who had the Favorite Flavor of G-d.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is a property of monotheistic religions.

It is certainly a challenge that they impose on themselves, and one that Islam seems to basically forbid itself from dealing with in a reasonable way.

When Hindus or Pagans disagree on the nature, attributes or message of a deity, that is just it. They disagree. Nothing must follow from that.

When Jewish People or Christians disagree, they often have a hard time dealing with it, but mostly tend to put respect for people above respect for speculative theology.

But Muslims tend to be given little choice but to take refuge on their uncertainty about who "should" count as "true" Muslims.

The least that can be said about that is that it is a very unhealthy attitude for anyone to hold.

 

[Marsh]

The only problem of course, is that there is a long history of any kind of Muslim killing any other kind of Muslim - not just Sunni and Shia but ever possible sect and faction and subgroup all murdering each other....
And, unfortunately, the same was true of Christianity up until recently, historically speaking. And was even true regarding Jews 2,000 plus years ago...

The "messages" may have been different but, put into practical use, the end result was pretty much the same - slaughtering each other over who had the Favorite Flavor of G-d.

I pretty much agree with you, but there are subsets of minority groups that have not taken part in the tit-for-tat violence. Unless I am mistaken two groups born of the Shia faith, the Baha'i and the Sufis, have been very peaceful. Within Christianity there are the Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups that are sworn pacifists, though they are not above shunning members who have strayed from the faith. They at least never take part in honour killing which is a time-honoured tradition in much of Islam (which, perhaps, itself is a holdover from the days of the pagan Arab culture).

 

[LuisDantas]

Most everyone is a sworn pacifist, at least according to their own parameters.

It is the exceptions that tell us what that means exactly.

On one extreme, that are air bombings "for peace". On the other extreme, there are the Khudai Khidmatgar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khudai_Khidmatgar

 

[Sabour]

Maajid Nawaz defines Islamists as a subset of Muslims who are working through violence (the jihadists) to push their agenda, and a second group who apply politics to peacefully and legally gain control. Their stated goal is the domination of the West. These people are not shy in claiming that they really are trying to take over.

You can't put the two groups under one umbrella. The first group you described will at most be a 1 %.

 

[YmirGF]

You can't put the two groups under one umbrella. The first group you described will at most be a 1 %.

I do agree, but when you add the numbers that actively support, but do not take part, the number mushrooms to about 12% and when you add those who are sympathetic it grows to about 25%. Now you are in the land of serious numbers... When the number who are indifferent, but mildly supportive, but disagree with their tactics, the numbers hit 50%. That is troubling

 

[Sabour]

I do agree, but when you add the numbers that actively support, but do not take part, the number mushrooms to about 12% and when you add those who are sympathetic it grows to about 25%. Now you are in the land of serious numbers... When the number who are indifferent, but mildly supportive, but disagree with their tactics, the numbers hit 50%. That is troubling

I will not argue numbers. But if that is the case, I do agree with what you said that it would be troubling.

Terrorist acts must be condemned and rectified by all kinds of people.

 

[YmirGF]

I will not argue numbers. But if that is the case, I do agree with what you said that it would be troubling.

Terrorist acts must be condemned and rectified by all kinds of people.

I am with you there, my friend.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I pretty much agree with you, but there are subsets of minority groups that have not taken part in the tit-for-tat violence. Unless I am mistaken two groups born of the Shia faith, the Baha'i and the Sufis, have been very peaceful. Within Christianity there are the Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups that are sworn pacifists, though they are not above shunning members who have strayed from the faith. They at least never take part in honour killing which is a time-honoured tradition in much of Islam (which, perhaps, itself is a holdover from the days of the pagan Arab culture).

Sufism started out as an esoteric reaction to the materialism of the original Sunni Islam but, like Buddhism and other theoretically "peaceful" religions, Sufis became a subset of whatever Sunni School of Islam they followed and, whereas they still try and follow the "inner" teachings of any particular sect, those "inner" teachings may well be violent and destructive to those not of their sect.
And, Baha'i, like the Druze and some other former Shia Muslim sects, do not consider themselves Muslim, nor does the Muslim world consider them Muslim.
And, Jehovah's Witnesses, like most of mainstream believing Christians today, are a recent phenomenon in the Christian world.
The early American colonials invented a new Christianity which, after 400 years, has replaced all mainstream Christian core beliefs with its more tolerant and forgiving Christianity that does not preach forced conversions; hatred of non Christians; and killing those who are not your particular "Flavor of G-d." Again, this was invented by American Colonials and has only recently, mainly after WWII, subsumed the entire mainstream Christian world.

 

[LuisDantas]

You can't put the two groups under one umbrella. The first group you described will at most be a 1 %.

Can't we? Shouldn't we?

Those are very much questions worth asking. And answering.

 

[Moishe3rd]

You can't put the two groups under one umbrella. The first group you described will at most be a 1 %.

Not according to almost any poll; including those taken by Muslims in the Muslim world.
Their polls claim that the first group is 10 to 30 percent of all Muslims - depending upon how one defines "pushing their agenda through violence."
At 10%, that is about 150 million Muslims.... At your one percent, that is still 15 million Muslims.... Which is a pretty good sized violent; Jihaddi; murdering army....

 

[LuisDantas]

Good points, @Moishe3rd

And then we have to consider the role of submission to authority in Islam. I figure not too many Shias particularly hate Salman Rushdie either, but the fatwa for his murder still stands nonetheless.

It is odd how people keep forgetting about those things when they cry "Islamophobia" and "Religion of Peace".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatwas

 

[YmirGF]

Good points, @Moishe3rd

And then we have to consider the role of submission to authority in Islam. I figure not too many Shias particularly hate Salman Rushdie either, but the fatwa for his murder still stands nonetheless.

It is odd how people keep forgetting about those things when they cry "Islamophobia" and "Religion of Peace".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatwas

The thing about Fatwas is that Muslims to not have to obey them. They are just opinions from a supposed religious "scholar" and are not obligatory. They are not like a Papal edict for example nor do they carry the weight of one.

 

[Moishe3rd]

The thing about Fatwas is that Muslims to not have to obey them. They are just opinions from a supposed religious "scholar" and are not obligatory. They are not like a Papal edict for example nor do they carry the weight of one.

People don't have to follow Papal edicts either - unless they believe in them.
Those who believe in their clerics or imams follow their fatwas.
Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy where State approved fatwas are edicts that all Muslims are supposed to follow.
Iran's Wilayat al-Faqih theocracy is defined as forcing ALL Muslims to follow their State approved fatwas.
So... Where in theory, you are correct. In principle, you are not correct.

 

[Jan]

I think it's been made quite clear that the powers that be have been trying to divide us for years. They've done the same thing with races like white and blacks, whenever cops are involved, they have to bring up the race, (as if that was important to begin with) Or they end up talking about the motive's of the lunatics. Even if you found out the motive, they still broke the law. It doesn't make it less or more heinous of a crime

People act as if if they weren't Muslim, they wouldn't have committed crimes. Seeing how there is good and bad Muslims, it never occurred to some people that maybe they were just lunatics? And that you're going to see lunatics, no matter what faith they belong to? IF what they said was true, how come my Muslim friends have never force converted me? And I know people are going to bring up that law in Muslim culture that gives Muslims permission to lie about their faith, but it was not because they can't infiltrate, It was used for protection against other countries who asked what their faith was, and that they have permission to lie about it. If a Buddhist majority country was oppressing non Buddhists, a Muslim could like about their faith to avoid being persecuted. Most of these Muslim bashers never even met a Muslim in their life, let alone talked to one, like I have. I have experience, because I wanted to know the truth. I know there are good Muslims as well as bad.

Then people read 2 pages of the Quran and read the news, which is bias anyway and come to the conclusion that every single Muslim believes in the exact sam thing (even though there's multiple branches of Islam) and that they all want to force convert everyone (even though the Quran has also spoken out against force conversion) Some of these attacks come from Christians mentioning contradictions in the Quran. (Yeah, like there's no contradictions in the Bible or other holy scriptures, right?)

They have no idea they are being manipulated into hating them.

The powers that be want boogeymen, to scare people, and people think if they see the faith of the lunatic, they begin to think everyone who shares that faith is equally bad and is supporting such actions, even though there have been Muslims condemning it and even fighting against it overseas. You do know ISIS and Boko Harraam has killed Muslims too, right? And you do know Muslim majority countries have been fighting against them, right?

Am I seriously the only one noticing this divide and conquer move? This isn't a new trick, this has been done before and millions are falling for it. They are being manipulated into hating each other, so they will be too weak and distracted to know who the real enemy is. You think there's a War on Islam? No. There never was? It doesn't make sense. How can you declare war on an idea, and how can you win it? Makes about as much sense as the war on terror? That can't be won because it's supposed to be not winnable so the wars go on and on, because you're not fighting a country or entity.

You think Muslims are the biggest enemy? Not even close. Some Muslims are already on your side. They want the same things you want, which is peace with their loved ones. Instead focus on the people who manipulated you in the first place.

P p

I think it's been made quite clear that the powers that be have been trying to divide us for years. They've done the same thing with races like white and blacks, whenever cops are involved, they have to bring up the race, (as if that was important to begin with) Or they end up talking about the motive's of the lunatics. Even if you found out the motive, they still broke the law. It doesn't make it less or more heinous of a crime

People act as if if they weren't Muslim, they wouldn't have committed crimes. Seeing how there is good and bad Muslims, it never occurred to some people that maybe they were just lunatics? And that you're going to see lunatics, no matter what faith they belong to? IF what they said was true, how come my Muslim friends have never force converted me? And I know people are going to bring up that law in Muslim culture that gives Muslims permission to lie about their faith, but it was not because they can't infiltrate, It was used for protection against other countries who asked what their faith was, and that they have permission to lie about it. If a Buddhist majority country was oppressing non Buddhists, a Muslim could like about their faith to avoid being persecuted. Most of these Muslim bashers never even met a Muslim in their life, let alone talked to one, like I have. I have experience, because I wanted to know the truth. I know there are good Muslims as well as bad.

Then people read 2 pages of the Quran and read the news, which is bias anyway and come to the conclusion that every single Muslim believes in the exact sam thing (even though there's multiple branches of Islam) and that they all want to force convert everyone (even though the Quran has also spoken out against force conversion) Some of these attacks come from Christians mentioning contradictions in the Quran. (Yeah, like there's no contradictions in the Bible or other holy scriptures, right?)

They have no idea they are being manipulated into hating them.

The powers that be want boogeymen, to scare people, and people think if they see the faith of the lunatic, they begin to think everyone who shares that faith is equally bad and is supporting such actions, even though there have been Muslims condemning it and even fighting against it overseas. You do know ISIS and Boko Harraam has killed Muslims too, right? And you do know Muslim majority countries have been fighting against them, right?

Am I seriously the only one noticing this divide and conquer move? This isn't a new trick, this has been done before and millions are falling for it. They are being manipulated into hating each other, so they will be too weak and distracted to know who the real enemy is. You think there's a War on Islam? No. There never was? It doesn't make sense. How can you declare war on an idea, and how can you win it? Makes about as much sense as the war on terror? That can't be won because it's supposed to be not winnable so the wars go on and on, because you're not fighting a country or entity.

You think Muslims are the biggest enemy? Not even close. Some Muslims are already on your side. They want the same things you want, which is peace with their loved ones. Instead focus on the people who manipulated you in the first place.

I think it's been made quite clear that the powers that be have been trying to divide us for years. They've done the same thing with races like white and blacks, whenever cops are involved, they have to bring up the race, (as if that was important to begin with) Or they end up talking about the motive's of the lunatics. Even if you found out the motive, they still broke the law. It doesn't make it less or more heinous of a crime

People act as if if they weren't Muslim, they wouldn't have committed crimes. Seeing how there is good and bad Muslims, it never occurred to some people that maybe they were just lunatics? And that you're going to see lunatics, no matter what faith they belong to? IF what they said was true, how come my Muslim friends have never force converted me? And I know people are going to bring up that law in Muslim culture that gives Muslims permission to lie about their faith, but it was not because they can't infiltrate, It was used for protection against other countries who asked what their faith was, and that they have permission to lie about it. If a Buddhist majority country was oppressing non Buddhists, a Muslim could like about their faith to avoid being persecuted. Most of these Muslim bashers never even met a Muslim in their life, let alone talked to one, like I have. I have experience, because I wanted to know the truth. I know there are good Muslims as well as bad.

Then people read 2 pages of the Quran and read the news, which is bias anyway and come to the conclusion that every single Muslim believes in the exact sam thing (even though there's multiple branches of Islam) and that they all want to force convert everyone (even though the Quran has also spoken out against force conversion) Some of these attacks come from Christians mentioning contradictions in the Quran. (Yeah, like there's no contradictions in the Bible or other holy scriptures, right?)

They have no idea they are being manipulated into hating them.

The powers that be want boogeymen, to scare people, and people think if they see the faith of the lunatic, they begin to think everyone who shares that faith is equally bad and is supporting such actions, even though there have been Muslims condemning it and even fighting against it overseas. You do know ISIS and Boko Harraam has killed Muslims too, right? And you do know Muslim majority countries have been fighting against them, right?

Am I seriously the only one noticing this divide and conquer move? This isn't a new trick, this has been done before and millions are falling for it. They are being manipulated into hating each other, so they will be too weak and distracted to know who the real enemy is. You think there's a War on Islam? No. There never was? It doesn't make sense. How can you declare war on an idea, and how can you win it? Makes about as much sense as the war on terror? That can't be won because it's supposed to be not winnable so the wars go on and on, because you're not fighting a country or entity.

You think Muslims are the biggest enemy? Not even close. Some Muslims are already on your side. They want the same things you want, which is peace with their loved ones. Instead focus on the people who manipulated you in the first place.

Then why is the Muslim community not speaking out against what other Muslims are doing?

 

[columbus]

However when have Evangelical Christians ever committed mass murder of NON
Evangelical Christian

Spring of 2003 is an example.

President Bush was a staunch evangelical Christian.
His strongest supporters were other evangelical Christians.
He prayed and prayed on the invasion of Iraq and was lead to war by the Holy Spirit.
He often stated his plans to invade in evangelical Christian terms, referring to it as a crusade and a fight for godliness and such.

Then he took us to Iraq where we dropped bombs and launched missiles and such against Iraqi people in their homes in Baghdad and such.

The fact that the USA military is nominally secular mercenaries doesn't change the fact that Christians launched a war against Muslims when the USA invaded Iraq.
Tom

 

[columbus]

You have to realize that if the situation was reversed, that is Christian migrating to Muslim parts of the world, and Christian extremist were killing Muslims, then how would that go down ?.

Christians have been doing this for quite a long time.
Sticking to the USA post WWII, we've toppled elected governments. We've launched invasions. We've propped up violent tyrants. We've supported those tyrants when they launched invasions. We've carved out countries with little regard for the people who already lived there.

Oh yeah, Christian violence is alive and well. Even if we farm out the dirty work whenever possible.
Tom

 

[Sabour]

I am with you there, my friend.

That is the first time you call me your friend