Your posts seem to indicate something else entirely.
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People are being manipulated into hating Muslims
- Thread starter Theweirdtophat
- Start date
Not now, no but they certainly did in a similar time as Islam is in right now. Go to Hawaii and visit the Bishop Museum or go to Phoenix and that art museum and see the photos of NA's that were forced by Christians to abandon their culture and faith by alleged well meaning "Christians", or how about the other atrocities that have been mentioned, such as the Crusades?
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
The worst part is that was happening as recently as last century. It's probably still going on right now with Native children being pressured or forced into Christian schools and being robbed of their native culture.
to some degree, yes, this still occurs. However, that said, there is a very large resurgence of interest in reconnecting with the Native American's roots. Most of the language of many tribes has been lost but even that is being researched to bring it back to the tribes. Here in Maine, my tribe is very much involved in our roots and in politics to protect the lands proscribed to us by the 'white man', who took so much from us. They still have much that they owe.
blue taylor
Active Member
Just the facts.
Marsh
Active Member
I use to think this as well, but now I am not so sure. I once thought that young Muslims, born and raised in the West, would secularize. What is happening instead is that young Muslim men and women are becoming very conservative and large numbers are radicalizing. In many cases they are becoming more conservative than their parents.
A major difference between Christianity and Islam are the holy books themselves. Mohammad was a warlord and the Koran reflects that violence. You can find a handful of peaceful passages, the rest ... not so good. Jesus, on the other hand, was crucified. The Jews fought a number of bloody rebellions against the Romans, and the early Christians went to great lengths to distance themselves from Judaism -- in the eyes of the Romans. As a result most of the New Testament is very subservient. Totally unlike the Koran. There are maybe two passages in the Gospels were Jesus says things that are warlike (reflecting the historical Jesus before the Christian writers redacted his words).
The thing to keep in mind is that the actions of ISIS are very close to the historical actions of Mohammad himself, that is once he got on a roll with his conquests. That is why the Koran is so dangerous. It is the handbook for ISIS and all the other Islamist groups.
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Marsh
Active Member
I will have to answer the remainder later, it is past my bedtime, but I want to make clear that I don't hate Muslims. Why just today I got a hug from a young Muslim woman, and I reciprocated. I consider her a friend. As the evangelical Christians say, "Hate the sin, not the sinner." It is Islam I am worried about, not individual Muslims, many of whom I have great respect for.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
No he was the exact opposite.
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was abused, people fabricated things against him, they spit on him, they beat him almost to death in front of the Kaaba, and he ventured out all the way to Taif, and that is a tough journey. When he got there he wanted to talk to the tribal leaders. The custom to the arabs at that time was tat when you have visitors, you take care of them for three days without a question. However that wasnt the case. They made jokes about him, laughed and made snide remarks. Even the children at that area were told to throw stones at him and so they did until blood was all over his body and he was running away. One he was out of the city, the angel Gabriel came, the same angel of revelation and that who came to Mary to tell her the news of the miraclous birth, Gabriel told Muhammad peace be upon him, that Allah can command the mountains to come down on the people of the Taif and destroy them. Gabriel told him that all he had to do is to say words to do that. What did the prophet do?
He raised his hands to make a prayer. "To You, my Lord,
I complain of my weakness,
lack of support and the humiliation I am made to receive.
Most Compassionate and Merciful!
You are the Lord of the weak,
and you are my Lord.
To whom do You leave me?
To a distant person who receives me with hostility?
Or to an enemy You have given power over me?
As long as you are not displeased with me,
I do not care what I face.
I would, however,
be much happier with Your mercy.
I seek refuge in the light of Your face by which all darkness is
dispelled and both this life and the life to come are put in
their right course against incurring your wrath or being the
subject of your anger.
To You I submit,
until I earn Your pleasure.
Everything is powerless without your support."
`Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported: I asked the Prophet (PBUH) “Have you ever experienced a day harder than the day of the battle of Uhud?” He replied, “Indeed, I experienced them (dangers) at the hands of your people (i.e., the disbelievers from amongst the Quraish tribe). The hardest treatment I met from them was on the Day of `Aqabah when I went to Ibn `Abd Yalil bin `Abd Kulal (who was one of the chiefs of Ta’if) with the purpose of inviting him to Islam, but he made no response (to my call). So I departed with deep distress. I did not recover until I arrived at Qarn ath-Tha`alib. There, I raised my head and saw a cloud which had cast its shadow on me. I saw in it Jibril (Gabriel) (PBUH) who called me and said: `Indeed, Allah, the Exalted, heard what your people said to you and the response they made to you. And He has sent you the angel in charge of the mountains to order him to do to them what you wish.’ Then the angel of the mountains called me, greeted me and said: `O Muhammad, Allah listened to what your people had said to you. I am the angel of the mountains, and my Rubb has sent me to you so that you may give me your orders. (I will carry out your orders). If you wish I will bring together the two mountains that stand opposite to each other at the extremities of Makkah to crush them in between.”’ But Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, “I rather hope that Allah will raise from among their descendants people as will worship Allah the One, and will not ascribe partners to Him (in worship).”
Islam is a complete way of life that is it tells people how to act in any circumstance. Being in a war is one of these circumstances in which the Quraan tells us how to act and how to combat it. There are many conditions, however, sources tend to take things out of context to prove a point.
Moishe3rd
Yehudi
Historically - the above is untrue.
Mohammad was not a warlord. He was a Judge. And, he made his reputation as a Just Judge in Yathrib (Medina) and thus acquired followers who respected his ideas on Islam; the new philosophy from whence came his Justice.
He went on to conquer those tribes that did not accept Islam and then went on to conquer Mecca but - there was very little "conquest" going on during the lifetime of Mohammad. Most was persuasion and other forms of commitment to this new universal Arab tribe called Islam.
As for your "differences," Christianity was a persecuted sect of a wierd confluence Judaism and Roman messianism until Constantine, the Roman Emperor, declared it the official religion of Rome. Christian Rome then spent the next hundred years or so "breaking each other's heads" (literally killing each other; assassinating bishops; rioting; burning down cities; etc.) over WHICH Christian doctrines and writings and philosophies were going to be the official canons of Christianity.
Without Constantine and the Roman Empire, there would have been no Christianity. So - from its inception, it was a world conquering religion that declared non Christians to be persona non grata.
Christianity spent over 1,500 years conquering; killing; torturing; persecuting; looting; and annihilating all those who opposed - in the Name of Jesus!
That's the fac' jac'.
ISIS has pretty much Zero to do with Mohammad as Mohammad never "got on a roll with his conquests." Those happened after he died.
ISIS does have everything to do with how the Saudis conquered the Arabian Peninsula but they, like ISIS, had to invent a new heretical Islam in order to do it.
You are completely incorrect about Mohammed. He was not a warlord at all. He was perhaps, if we are to believe the tales, a pedophile, but mostly he sat in judgment of others. Comparing the Bible to the Koran, one can find just as many violent laden verses in the Bible as in the Koran. It boils down to a matter of interpretation. Look at the Westboro Church. Look at the man in Florida who wanted to burn Korans., etc. Muslims, as a whole, are no more violent than Christians. It is the media and the few who make it look as if the entire faith is to blame.
Moishe3rd
Yehudi
Muslims, as a whole, are no more violent that Christians, as a whole, WERE, up until about 100 to 200 years ago.
Muslims, as a whole, are currently the most violent religious sects on Earth.
Christians today, as a whole, are not violent at all.
True enough but keep in mind that Islam is still in its collective infancy compared with Christianity. As you note, from about 500 to as little ago as 100 years, Christians were as violent, if not more, than Muslims are today. So do we excuse what the Christians did in the name of their God and blame the Muslims for their views? Seems a bit unfair to me.
Moishe3rd
Yehudi
I responded rather thoroughly on this point on the previous page - post #191. If you can blow it up to read it, it would explain better than this brief rebuttal.
I am an ("ultra") Orthodox Jew who fully accepts what Jewish Law and our history derived from the Torah. In brief - I think "we" are right and what we must live by what we received from G-d.
And - I point out in the above previous post that Jews were a violent, fratricidal people for well over 1,000 years.
Jewish Law; the Torah; does NOT "excuse" us from our violent behaviors.
Our Tradition tells us that the reason that the Jewish Temple has not been rebuilt in Jerusalem is because Jews still practice "sinas chinam;" baseless hatred towards one another. This is not an "excuse." This is a condemnation.
I excuse nothing that the barbarous; hateful; genocidal Christians did for over a thousand years of history. They blew up; destroyed; annihilated; etc. their entire freaking world (Christian Europe and beyond) in their "Christian Reformation" of 500 years ago.
If the Muslims continue in the same vein, they will blow up; destroy; annihilate; etc. large portions of planet Earth and hundreds of millions will die.
This is not good.
They need to be stopped before they reach the same place that Christians did 400 years ago or even that the Jews did 2,000 years ago.
In the immortal words of Princess Leia, if the Muslims don't stop, "...you're gonna get us all killed!"
Augustus
…
It was Theodosius who made it the official religion, not Constantine.
Why?
It had been growing organically for nearly 400 years before the Roman Empire actually became Christian. It's not like Constantine backed some tiny cult then forced everyone to believe in it. It was a popular and rapidly growing religion.
Marsh
Active Member
You are missing something very important. In the New Testament, which is the Christian holy work (the Old Testament is Jewish), all the promised punishments for not following God's word are carried out by God himself. Neither Jesus, nor any other Christian writing in the NT, places the onus upon humans to exact God's punishment. In the Koran the Prophet exacts punishment himself, right down to carrying out executions for not subscribing to Islam. This is why ISIS and other Islamist groups themselves are involved in religious persecution and exact religious punishments and executions.
Marsh
Active Member
This is my concern as well. Antisemitism was so prevalent in Christianity over the centuries precisely because parts of the New Testament are antisemitic. The NT does not teach persecution of Jews, but it lends itself to antisemitism. Christians must, therefore, be aware of the problem and guard themselves against it. The Koran, however, is explicitly antisemitic and the Prophet himself beheads Jewish men, orders the beheading of hundreds, and carries off hundreds of Jewish women and children into slavery. Nothing of the sort happens in the New Testament. The Hadith tells us that in the end times even the rocks will call out: "I heard Allah's Apostle [Muhammad] saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' " (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791).
We all are familiar with the explicit violence directed against non-Muslims in the Koran. The New Testament simply is not violent. Violence arose in Christian times when the Church gained political power. Once it lost that power, and once political leaders secularized, and the legal system secularized, persecution by religious elements in society gradually diminished. The violence arising within Islam, directed against other Muslims and non-Muslims, by both Sunni and Shia, will not end until the entire faith secularizes. The problem is that most Muslims, not all, reject secularism as a Western vice. I cringe at the prospect of millions entering our society who are not secular and who will not secularize. They will bring persecution, in all its forms, with them.
I would say that Muslims ought to create denominations. The most parsimonious examination of Islamic history and Islamic doctrine leads to the conclusion that Islam is a theocratic, supremacist, conquest-oriented, misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic ideology. Now I understand that many Muslims reject those ideas. But they put the burden on the rest of us to sort out which Muslims largely believe what their ideology instructs them to believe, and which Muslims do mental gymnastics to transmogrify the ideology to a peaceful one. Again, I understand that many Muslims do indeed perform this transmogrification into peacefulness, and I'm glad they do.
But if peaceful Muslims want to be respected and included in modern society, they need to declare themselves openly and clearly, and saying "Islam is a religion of peace" doesn't cut the mustard. If such a denomination already exists, please share with us what it's called!
Moishe3rd
Yehudi
I appreciate your sentiments.
But, I have to apologize beforehand that your history is just simply inaccurate.
Islam does not need to "secularize." It needs to adhere to Islamic principles found in their scriptures that demand justice; mercy; compassion; hope; and productivity. They are all there and were; and still can be; used to create Civilization not destroy it.
Your reliance on new testament writings as non violent has only worked out over less than the last one hundred years. Really.... I understand and sympathize with today's believing Christians telling me that, for the last 1,500 years, Christians who practiced their religion were not "Real" Christians but, deluded; led astray; false; etc...
The problem with your belief is that it gives no way out for Islam to become civilized. Your belief lies in the eradication of the religion of Islam. Big, big death toll there - probably in the billions. Not a good idea.
Meanwhile - the following is something I wrote on Christianity and the Jews many years ago. It is historically accurate. At the end is, indeed, the current Christian caveat and the current Muslim problem. It may offend some so - don't read then.
Be well.
From the earliest days of the Constantine and the Christian Roman Empire, Christians learned about the Jews in the context of how their god, Jesus, was killed by wicked Jews. In Christianity, Jews were always synonymous with Christ-killers – they were the Race of Deicides.
It begins with Book of Matthew 27:20 “And the whole people answering said: ‘His blood be upon us and our children.’”
The Book of John puts the proverbial nails in the crucifixion of the Jews when he relates the various evils that “the Jews” performed.
“… therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus because he did these things on the Sabbath.” (John 5:16)
“… The Jews then took up stones to stone him…” (John 10:31)
“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (John 10:33)
“The Jews insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.’” (John 19:7)
“’Here is your king,’ Pilate said to the Jews.
But they shouted, ‘Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!’” (John 19:14,15)
Apparently the early Christian theologians believed that these passages specifically meant that the Jews first rejected, and then killed Jesus. And, that the Jews were therefore cursed.
Origen, one of the most distinguished writers of the early Christian Church, wrote: “The Jews nailed Christ to the Cross.”
Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, took time to detail the crimes of the Jews in his “Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews.”
Augustine argued that Jews should be left alive and suffering as “a perpetual reminder of their murder of Christ.”
Gregory of Nyssa named the Jews “Slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, adversaries of G-d, haters of G-d … advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers… assemblies of demon… and haters of righteousness.”
John Chrysostom (347-407), flatly stated (contradicting Peter who claimed the Jews acted without knowledge) “the Jews erred, not ignorantly, but with full knowledge.”
Chrysostom’s virulent hatred of the Jews, as the Archbishop of Constantinople, along with these other Church Fathers, forever influenced the theology that became Law under the Eastern Orthodox Empire, and he, like the rest of these early Church Fathers, became a “saint.”
Amongst his many sermons castigating, excoriating, and cursing the Jews, he called them “the assassins of Christ” and named their synagogues “the refuge of devils and abyss of perdition.”
Ultimately, the “Holy Roman Emperor,” Constantine, began what became a perpetual theological condemnation of Jews and Judaism in his:
Laws of Constantinus Regarding the Jews
(It is worthwhile to state the first Law in full as this enjoyed the full Ecclesiastical weight of the Holy Roman Church and was not merely a “civil law,” but Christian doctrine.)
I. Laws of Constantine the Great, October 18, 315: Concerning Jews, Heaven-Worshippers, And Samaritans We wish to make it known to the Jews and their elders and their patriarchs that if, after the enactment of this law, any one of them dares to attack with stones or some other manifestation of anger another who has fled their dangerous sect and attached himself to the worship of God [Christianity], he must speedily be given to the flames and burn together with all his accomplices. Moreover, if any one of the population should join their abominable sect and attend their meetings, he will bear with them the deserved penalties.
Holy Roman Emperors, Theodosius II and Justinian, continued making specific Laws restricting and condemning Jews and Judaism, as did nearly every Holy Roman Emperor and later, Popes, that followed in the footsteps of these Christian “saints” who urged that Jews be scourged and hated for killing their god.
This theology was passed on to all of Christendom well into the 20th Century.
All Christians “knew” that Jews were “cursed” by G-d and it was the theological duty of greater Christendom to see that they suffered.
And, greater Christendom did exactly that.
The first recorded mob violence that I know of was in 388 CE when Christians burnt down a synagogue in Syria.
From the 5th Century onwards - Jews were regularly killed; forced to convert; their synagogues and homes burned and looted; forced to pay a “dhimmi tax” to Christians in order to both practice Judaism and/or simply not be killed; prohibited from certain occupations; not allowed to marry Christians; their books burned; expelled from various Christian kingdoms; and simply persecuted unendingly by Christians for the crime of being Jewish.
At any time, in any country, for any reason, Jews could be and were ruthlessly sought out for torture and death.
Millions of Jews died at the hands of Christians over the last 1500 years for the supposed theological crime of being Christ Killers.
With the conclusion of the Holocaust in the 20th Century, most of Christianity officially changed their theology and no longer claimed that the Jews killed their god.
Now, the Islamist Loony Tunes have picked up on Christian Hate-the-Jews theology with their own passages from their scriptures and are carrying the torch of persecuting Jews and defaming Judaism.
This was not a natural development but is descended directly from the hatreds of Naziism and Stalinism.
Before the 20th Century, the pertinent “pig” and “monkey” passages interpreted by Hadith were an embarrassment to Muslims who preferred to gloss over these issues and the famous slaughter by Mohammad of the Jews.
With the rise of both Israel and the successful Jihad of the Wahhabist Saudi Arabians, these obscure anti-Jewish passages became key quotes in Islamist and Arabist hatreds.
Those who wish to differentiate between Christianity and Judaism will surely point out that Jesus never told Christians to kill the Jews and Mohammad did, indeed, tells his followers to kill the Jews.
Despite these apparent contradictions, Jews found refuge from mass murder and persecution by Christians in Muslim and Arab lands for over 1,000 years.
Again, the persecutions and killing of Jews by Muslims during that time was not Jew specific. Various Muslim rulers killed Muslims; Jews; Christians; and others with impunity as the nations were at war or theological crises came about.
It is only since the rise of Islamic fascist death cultism that the shoe is now on the other foot.
Christians, particularly American Christians, are today the best friends Jews could possibly have.
Muslims are not.
Nonetheless, for over a thousand years, all of Christianity firmly believed that their god had condemned and cursed the Jews as Christ Killers and deicides and, it is that heritage, which influenced all of Christianity which became the Western World, which influenced the entire planet with its theology up until today…
Theweirdtophat
Well-Known Member
Again most bashers have never even met a Muslim in their live, let alone know their religion. Muslims have openly declared it, condemned it and are fighting against it. Just because it is not reported on the news, does not mean it did not happen.
The problem is you seem to think Muslims are somehow supporting and in league with the radicals if they don't declare openly in every street corner and make a parade out of it. I don't recall anyone demanding Christians to condemn the lord's resistance army, a radical christian group. Because only Muslims can be terrorists apparently.
It never occurred to them that maybe they are lunatics because that is their nature, not because their religion made them that way?
Exactly what "it" are you referring to, because I'm NOT referring to terrorism. I'm referring to mainstream, conservative Islamism.