"People who have faith . . . are not as smart as others"

[ThePainefulTruth]

Opinion, assumption, and biased viewpoint based on selfish motives.

If the pursuit of Truth is selfish, yeah, I guess I am. One thing about Truth, it's not beholding to opinion and assumptions. If I was loaded with power, I might be tempted, I don't know--but I'm not, and all I have to gain is a sense of fulfillment. I've found that people all too often try to offload their guilt on to others thinking everybody's the same as they are.

Oh, wow, you said hearsay, not heresy. My bad. If it was just hearsay then why do scriptures from different cultures and times all speak of the same principals?

Exploiting fear and ignorance leads to similar tactics. The reason deism isn't exploited is because you can't demagogue a laissez-faire God. And pointing to our rational inherent internal self-awareness as the source of morality doesn't enable "God's spokesmen" to claim divine authority.

If man just made this stuff up to control others then why are the writings unified in their core messages? If it's fake then why does it cause real reactions within the selfless conscience?

They aren't unified, they're often contradictory even in a given religion or holy book. In fact Paul, a Roman citizen by his Herodian heritage, took the religion of Jesus' early Jewish followers and morphed it with the Mithraism from that religion's center in his home town of Tarsus. It's always been done. The worst of that was changing the message of John the Baptist and Jesus about salvation through repentance, to absolving guilt, without even trying to be good, by the ritual and spiritual consumption of Jesus' flesh and blood. Symbolic or otherwise, that would have been and is blasphemy to any Jew, then and now, including Jesus. Paul got all of his "authority", from visions, including for that.

 

[popsthebuilder]

If the pursuit of Truth is selfish, yeah, I guess I am. One thing about Truth, it's not beholding to opinion and assumptions. If I was loaded with power, I might be tempted, I don't know--but I'm not, and all I have to gain is a sense of fulfillment. I've found that people all too often try to offload their guilt on to others thinking everybody's the same as they are.



Exploiting fear and ignorance leads to similar tactics. The reason deism isn't exploited is because you can't demagogue a laissez-faire God. And pointing to our rational inherent internal self-awareness as the source of morality doesn't enable "God's spokesmen" to claim divine authority.



They aren't unified, they're often contradictory even in a given religion or holy book. In fact Paul, a Roman citizen by his Herodian heritage, took the religion of Jesus' early Jewish followers and morphed it with the Mithraism from that religion's center in his home town of Tarsus. It's always been done. The worst of that was changing the message of John the Baptist and Jesus about salvation through repentance, to absolving guilt, without even trying to be good, by the ritual and spiritual consumption of Jesus' flesh and blood. Symbolic or otherwise, that would have been and is blasphemy to any Jew, then and now, including Jesus. Paul got all of his "authority", from visions, including for that.

Its refreshing to talk with someone such as yourself. And no, seeking the truth isn't selfish. The writings of Paul do not teach that the elect of God are to be bound by sin and simultaneously arrogantly assume that they are safe from judgement. That would be the false doctrine of man. And scriptures don't really contradict one another when it comes to morality, selflessness, charity, alms, humility, and peace.

It's nice to meet someone who takes it seriously.

With humility, peace.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Its refreshing to talk with someone such as yourself. And no, seeking the truth isn't selfish. The writings of Paul do not teach that the elect of God are to be bound by sin and simultaneously arrogantly assume that they are safe from judgement. That would be the false doctrine of man. And scriptures don't really contradict one another when it comes to morality, selflessness, charity, alms, humility, and peace.

It's nice to meet someone who takes it seriously.

With humility, peace.

Likewise I'm sure.

Consider this:

But didn’t he earn his right to heaven by all the good things he did? No, for being saved is a gift; if a person could earn it by being good, then it wouldn’t be free—but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. For God declares sinners to be good in his sight if they have faith in Christ to save them from God’s wrath.
--- Romans 4:4

You could, for all intents and purposes, call this spiritual welfare---and a flaming contradiction, given his promise of deliverance from judgement for a song. Most people aren't aware of this little caveat. If preachers quoted this as much as they like to use Paul otherwise, they'd have congregations full of licentiousness and fornication.

"Hey preacher, good sermons today, thanks a ton! Excuse me now I gotta go find my neighbors wife."

Yes, over the top example, but you get the point.

This is the tooth and nail conflict going on between Paul and the Jerusalem "church" led by Jesus' brother James, surfacing again.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
--James 2:14

And my personal favorite:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:19

I loved that passage for years before I realized he was aiming it at Paul.

 

[paarsurrey]

"People who have faith . . . are not as smart as others"

Is it from science or from religion?
Regards

 

[popsthebuilder]

ThePainfulTruth,

First; sorry for the delay. I've been exceedingly busy, and pretty tired too.

Anyay, Romans 4:4 doesn't read that way to me.

Romans 4 (KJV) - ሮሜ
4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

And I must say that though that section can seem confusing; it is reiterated repeatedly throughout Romans that salvation is available to all, but knowing, repeated sin and/or nulifacation of the law is false doctrine. Salvation of the herd/ mass/ life isn't the same as the direction or dereliction of the duty of the elect of GOD.

You say again. I admit that I know nothing of this previous schism in recent terms as I have only had any sort of Faith for about 5-6 years and have only really read scriptures for maybe a year. But I am very aware of the division of the "church" and it's incidieous misdirection, manipulation, and mass murder in the past. It is sad but for is to learn from as all history is.

As far as James 2:14 is concerned; works are a product of Faith, and to be kept not hidden, but quite. If one does any supposed work or God's will through their heart then they won't be doing it for material attainment of any sort or the sight of man in any way.

James 2:19 is in reference to ALL the hypocritical "faithful" who speak of their own beliefs but who's actions or works show otherwise. Even if it doesn't "show" otherwise. One knows in their heart their own motives. To me it is insinuating that the powers that be even abide by the will of GOD or at least fear justice.

Anyway, back to Romans; I really don't think there is any contradiction. Confusion, perhaps intentional...maybe, but not contradiction. The elect are not to sin, and truthful direction comes from inner truth.

Peace

 

[Thief]

at the op I see confusion.
not everyone has a lean to science.
that doesn't mean they are stupid
not everyone leans to religion.
that doesn't mean they will burn in hell

trying to draw a line that your are smarter than the religious?......is stupid

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

ThePainfulTruth,

First; sorry for the delay. I've been exceedingly busy, and pretty tired too.

Anyay, Romans 4:4 doesn't read that way to me.

Romans 4 (KJV) - ሮሜ
4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

And I must say that though that section can seem confusing; it is reiterated repeatedly throughout Romans that salvation is available to all, but knowing, repeated sin and/or nulifacation of the law is false doctrine. Salvation of the herd/ mass/ life isn't the same as the direction or dereliction of the duty of the elect of GOD.

So is my bible wrong and yours right even though you admit yours is confusing? That's a perpetual problem with translations, which are further complicated when they claim to be divine revelation in the first place. And nobody's claiming salvation isn't available to all, but repentance and an genuine effort toward being good is required.

Anyway, back to Romans; I really don't think there is any contradiction. Confusion, perhaps intentional...maybe, but not contradiction. The elect are not to sin, and truthful direction comes from inner truth.

But Paul contradicts that.

Think about the translation and hearsay problems, and then read this profound statement:


“It is only in the CREATION that all our ideas and conceptions of a word of God can unite. The Creation speaketh an universal language.... It is an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this Word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God.” --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason pt. 1

If God was going to reveal anything to us, this is the only way possible without undermining our all important free will.


Peace[/QUOTE]

at the op I see confusion.
not everyone has a lean to science.
that doesn't mean they are stupid
not everyone leans to religion.
that doesn't mean they will burn in hell

trying to draw a line that your are smarter than the religious?......is stupid

I don't claim to be smart, at all. I merely present the evidence which speaks for itself, as does the Truth.

 

[popsthebuilder]

So is my bible wrong and yours right even though you admit yours is confusing? That's a perpetual problem with translations, which are further complicated when they claim to be divine revelation in the first place. And nobody's claiming salvation isn't available to all, but repentance and an genuine effort toward being good is required.




But Paul contradicts that.

Think about the translation and hearsay problems, and then read this profound statement:


“It is only in the CREATION that all our ideas and conceptions of a word of God can unite. The Creation speaketh an universal language.... It is an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this Word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God.” --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason pt. 1

If God was going to reveal anything to us, this is the only way possible without undermining our all important free will.


Peace

I don't claim to be smart, at all. I merely present the evidence which speaks for itself, as does the Truth.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry you disagree. It seems that many are deceived, scared, proud, or all of the above. It's baffling to me how people put so much emphasis on particular singular verses from Paul, but conveniently miss the bigger message. Again, not surprising, just sad.

Peace friend. Your perspective is still very welcome.

 

[Thief]

I don't claim to be smart, at all. I merely present the evidence which speaks for itself, as does the Truth.

I believe in God....love science.....got an iq 125

or now you might say I am an exception?

or may be I serve as example

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I don't claim to be smart, at all. I merely present the evidence which speaks for itself, as does the Truth.

I'm sorry you disagree. It seems that many are deceived, scared, proud, or all of the above. It's baffling to me how people put so much emphasis on particular singular verses from Paul, but conveniently miss the bigger message. Again, not surprising, just sad.

The Devil is in the details. But Paul's revisions is more than that. Salvation through human sacrifice while ignoring good/bad behavior, and the pagan cannibalistic ritual of the Eucharist, are major departures from a rational philosophy, which includes the principle of repentance that Jesus, John the Baptist and James with the Jerusalem congegation emphasized.

I believe in God....love science.....got an iq 125

or now you might say I am an exception?

or may be I serve as example

IQ is a very narrow measure of intelligence It was developed by academics to measure ability to be a good academic, while missing a very broad array of other intellectual abilities. For instance, it takes a high degree of mental dexterity to be an athlete who is more than a simple weight lifter. And the accuracy of our current IQ leaves something to be desired. Mostly it mismeasures intelligence on the low end, but that puts everyone above 100 (average) higher than they should be.

And besides that, I believe in God and love science too. It's not the belief in God that's the problem, it's the God(s) one chooses to believe in.

 

[Thief]

IQ is a very narrow measure of intelligence It was developed by academics to measure ability to be a good academic, while missing a very broad array of other intellectual abilities. For instance, it takes a high degree of mental dexterity to be an athlete who is more than a simple weight lifter. And the accuracy of our current IQ leaves something to be desired. Mostly it mismeasures intelligence on the low end, but that puts everyone above 100 (average) higher than they should be.

And besides that, I believe in God and love science too. It's not the belief in God that's the problem, it's the God(s) one chooses to believe in.

I am not narrow minded as you have implied
and there is only one Almighty

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I am not narrow minded as you have implied
and there is only one Almighty

Hey, ok, you're half-way there. Now, which one do you believe in? And the next question is, do you just believe or claim to know? If the latter, that would put you in the narrow minded category, unless you have proof.

 

[Thief]

Hey, ok, you're half-way there. Now, which one do you believe in? And the next question is, do you just believe or claim to know? If the latter, that would put you in the narrow minded category, unless you have proof.

and you think I'm half there......yeah right....

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

and you think I'm half there......yeah right....

I said half-way there, big difference.

 

[Angy Ex Arcana]

Atheists scientists proclaim that "believers are not very smart"?
You can not take seriously a statement like that.
All human beings are intelligent, Believers and atheists.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I believe in God....love science.....got an iq 125

or now you might say I am an exception?

or may be I serve as example

Don't you get it? The implications of the study is that if you didn't believe, you'd have an IQ of 180! And if you believe in God and didn't love science, your IQ would be about 75. I thought that was obvious from the title of the article and the one sentence in it that actually mentions intelligence!

 

[Thief]

Don't you get it? The implications of the study is that if you didn't believe, you'd have an IQ of 180! And if you believe in God and didn't love science, your IQ would be about 75. I thought that was obvious from the title of the article and the one sentence in it that actually mentions intelligence!

ah!.....so the smarter you are in this world......the dumber you will be before God and heaven!!!!

 

[Thief]

I said half-way there, big difference.

either way....you go to heaven or you don't

oh, but there is a place some call purgatory.....a halfway house of sorts....

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

ah!.....so the smarter you are in this world......the dumber you will be before God and heaven!!!!

Well, I don't know about that...isn't it clear that if you don't believe in God you're smarter than if you do? (Even though that isn't what the study actually reported).

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

either way....you go to heaven or you don't

oh, but there is a place some call purgatory.....a halfway house of sorts....

Don't know what any of that has to do with being half-way to open minded. Well, I guess it could be a sort of self-imposed purgatory, which is what purgatory would be I s'pose. Whatever, keep chuggin'.