Persecuted Catholics in Iraq

[Scott1]

Hey all...

Most of the secular media talks about Iraq in a way that makes it seem there are only Muslims living there and Islam has been in Iraq forever.

This is not the case at all.

Christians were in Iraq first.... the Christian community there was started by St. Thomas (yes, that Thomas refered to by Paul in the Bible) and before Muslims attacked and took away their land (@700), the area was 95% Catholic Christian. Today there are less than 1 million Christians---- more than 400,000 have fled because of the violence in the country.

The Chaldean Catholic community STILL SPEAKS ARAMAIC.... yes, the language of Christ and the apostles. This just blew me away... what a rich tradition.... what a holy community to persevere for over a thousand years in a Muslim territory. They are still being kidnapped, persecuted, and murdered on a daily basis by Shia and Sunni Muslims.... the Christians (both Catholic and non) have no army to protect themselves and those who remain are only given three options:
1. Convert to Islam
2. Pay a "tax" ... basically a penalty/extortion just for being Christian
3. DIE

Lean more about these wonderful Christian on their website: kaldu.org

 

[Scott1]

.... oooh gosh... I forgot why I started this thread!

EVERY CHRISTIAN on this site has to check this out:
The Current State of Christian Iraqis

Download the MP3 or listen via streaming on your computer.... great insight from Iraqi Bishop Jammo and something that brought me to tears: during the interview he recites the Lord's Prayer in ARAMAIC! To hear that prayer in the language of Jesus... just an amazing experience.... I could almost imagine it was the voice of Christ.

Please take the time to listen to the show... and please pray for everyone (Christian or otherwise) in Iraq.

S

 

[lillitruthseeker]

I think another option would be to relocate --

Why would you stay with that kind of threat?

They are choosing death if they stay in my opinion -- things happen man - when its time to move on -- its time to move on

 

[Scott1]

They are choosing death if they stay in my opinion -- things happen man - when its time to move on -- its time to move on

Yeah... the violence of the area in general and the violence directed at them from the Muslims have forced 400,000 to move away in the last few years....

.... but many stay because this has been their home and the home of their ancestors for 2,000 years. The Muslims came in and attacked/murdered/took over, but these Christians feel that they have a right to be there (which they do) and will face torture and death before leaving.

I just pray people all over the world see what the Muslims are doing to these persecuted people and come to their aid.

S

 

[Hope]

Thanks so much for sharing this, Scott. I was totally unaware of these people and the persecution they face. I listened to the interview with the bishop and was very impressed with him. And it was beautiful hearing the Lord's prayer in Aramaic.

 

[Sahar]

Hey all...

Most of the secular media talks about Iraq in a way that makes it seem there are only Muslims living there and Islam has been in Iraq forever.

This is not the case at all.

Christians were in Iraq first.... the Christian community there was started by St. Thomas (yes, that Thomas refered to by Paul in the Bible) and before Muslims attacked and took away their land (@700), the area was 95% Catholic Christian. Today there are less than 1 million Christians---- more than 400,000 have fled because of the violence in the country.

The Chaldean Catholic community STILL SPEAKS ARAMAIC.... yes, the language of Christ and the apostles. This just blew me away... what a rich tradition.... what a holy community to persevere for over a thousand years in a Muslim territory. They are still being kidnapped, persecuted, and murdered on a daily basis by Shia and Sunni Muslims.... the Christians (both Catholic and non) have no army to protect themselves and those who remain are only given three options:
1. Convert to Islam
2. Pay a "tax" ... basically a penalty/extortion just for being Christian
3. DIE

Source?

The Muslims came in and attacked/murdered/took over, but these Christians feel that they have a right to be there (which they do) and will face torture and death before leaving.

Yeah, just like the Muslims who face death every day! Don't you know that there is an every day bombing in markets and areas where Iraqi Muslims live? Don't you know that the number of Iraqi casualties since 2003 reaches hundreds of thousands.

But your effort is impressive. Waiting for your next thread...lets see what the followers of the barbaric religion; Mohammadanism do.

 

[Scott1]

Source?

Gotta listen to The Current State of Christian Iraqis where you will hear from an Iraqi explaining in his own words what is going on in the country he calls home.

Yeah, just like the Muslims who face death every day! Don't you know that there is an every day bombing in markets and areas where Iraqi Muslims live? Don't you know that the number of Iraqi casualties since 2003 reaches hundreds of thousands.

Little bit different situation.... I abhor the war in Iraq and believe it is unjust and immoral for the US to be there.... while many of the deaths are Muslim on Muslim, even ONE precious Iraqi life (Muslim/Christian or other) is TOO many.... but... the major difference in this specific case is that the United States is not a religion and the soldiers who kill Iraqis are not doing so because of the faith of their victims.

Muslims kill, torture, kidnap Christians simply for the fact they are Christians.

It would be nice to hear you condemn the killing of these innocent people.

In the name of Christ the Prince of Peace,
S

 

[Sahar]

Gotta listen to The Current State of Christian Iraqis where you will hear from an Iraqi explaining in his own words what is going on in the country he calls home.

Little bit different situation.... I abhor the war in Iraq and believe it is unjust and immoral for the US to be there.... while many of the deaths are Muslim on Muslim, even ONE precious Iraqi life (Muslim/Christian or other) is TOO many.... but... the major difference in this specific case is that the United States is not a religion and the soldiers who kill Iraqis are not doing so because of the faith of their victims.

Muslims kill, torture, kidnap Christians simply for the fact they are Christians.

It would be nice to hear you condemn the killing of these innocent people.

In the name of Christ the Prince of Peace,
S

I condemn the killing of any innocent person. But i don't have to believe every thing. There are some Christian websites that don't have anything to do except insulting Muslims and Islam and spreading fallacies about Islam. Just like when some websites say that Coptic Christians are persecuted in Egypt and you would be amazed of the amount of lies they spread.
BTW, where i live, i see Christians every where but i don't see Muslims who "kill, torture, kidnap them simply for the fact they are Christians."

 

[Scott1]

I condemn the killing of any innocent person.

So these Muslims are wrong (if the stories are true).... you believe that Christians should be left alone to practice their faith in ANY MUSLIM NATION?

BTW, where i live, i see Christians every where but i don't see Muslims who "kill, torture, kidnap them simply for the fact they are Christians."

Oy vey.... because you can't see it from your back door means it does not happen? Please.

I've seen the killings and persecution with my own eyes.... I wish more people would defend the rights of people to live in peace and practice their faith without fear.... God will punish the wicked my friend.

May the Immaculate Mother of God bless you and yours,
S

 

[Sahar]

So these Muslims are wrong (if the stories are true).... you believe that Christians should be left alone to practice their faith in ANY MUSLIM NATION?

THE CHRISTIANS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN LEFT ALONE TO PRACTICE THEIR FAITH IN THE MUSLIM NATIONS. If this wasn't happening in ANY MUSLIM NATION, then this would be against the Islamic teachings.
In fact my objection more to this thread is bringing Iraq to this persecution thing. I won't expect Iraqi Christians to be an exception from what's happening there. Maybe we can say every Iraqi there is persecuted. This chaos won't exclude any element of the Iraqi nation.

 

[Scott1]

THE CHRISTIANS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN LEFT ALONE TO PRACTICE THEIR FAITH IN THE MUSLIM NATIONS. If this wasn't happening in ANY MUSLIM NATION, then this would be against the Islamic teachings.

I know this to be false... again, I've seen it with my own eyes in my time living in several Muslim dominated nations.
I don't know where you live, but be assured that not all Muslims share your idea that persecuting non-believers is against Islamic teaching... in fact I've been told that the "tax" extorted from Christians is a command from the Koran...maybe you could clear that up.

Peace in Christ,
S

 

[jamaesi]

Not that I am disagreeing with the persecution of these Catholics in Iraq, it seems with a lot of these modern "Islamic" governments, too many people who are nonMuslim AND Muslim are being persecuted, do you have any sources of this aside from that show that I could read? I'm hearing disabled and to listen to something like that without being able to lip-read is very difficult for me.

I think another option would be to relocate --

Why would you stay with that kind of threat?

They are choosing death if they stay in my opinion -- things happen man - when its time to move on -- its time to move on

They have every single right to live, protected, wherever they wish to. Moving should not be forced as an option.

I know this to be false... again, I've seen it with my own eyes in my time living in several Muslim dominated nations.
I don't know where you live, but be assured that not all Muslims share your idea that persecuting non-believers is against Islamic teaching... in fact I've been told that the "tax" extorted from Christians is a command from the Koran...maybe you could clear that up.

Peace in Christ,
S

There is a tax, yes, it is called jizyah. However, it is not a punishment for not being Muslim. It was for males, nonMuslim, of military age and ability and they were to pay it as they were not required to serve in an Islamic military but benefited from it's protection. It was also adjusted by income of the person. I don't serve in the military now, but am protected by it, and much of my taxes go to it. It's similar to that.

 

[Scott1]

I'm hearing disabled and to listen to something like that without being able to lip-read is very difficult for me.

Forgive me my friend... maybe check out the website for the Chaldeans... my specific info on Iraq comes from secular news agencies (I don't find them to be reliable- but do a google search if you'd like - a Catholic priest and three deacons were murdered a few weeks ago just after leaving their church.... several Christian churches have been burned to the ground.... and many Mulims have started to kidnap children so much so that many of the Christian schools are almost empty because parents are keeping their kids home).... sorry I don't have specific sources... I trust the Bishop as reliable because he is an Iraqi.... western Christian reporters are less than trustworthy in my opinion.

They have every single right to live, protected, wherever they wish to. Moving should not be forced as an option.

God bless you ... nice to hear from a Muslim with the heart of a saint.

If you don't mind... what country do you live in?

There is a tax, yes, it is called jizyah. However, it is not a punishment for not being Muslim. It was for males, nonMuslim, of military age and ability and they were to pay it as they were not required to serve in an Islamic military but benefited from it's protection. It was also adjusted by income of the person. I don't serve in the military now, but am protected by it, and much of my taxes go to it. It's similar to that.

Again... not that I believe you are not telling the truth, but my experience has been different. The Christians in Iraq (and in the two Muslim nations I lived in for a time) did charge the jizyah but then levied an ADDITIONAL tax to Christians... many have come home to signs on their doors telling them they now live in an area that is a "Muslim Nation" and they have one week to leave or be killed.... many have fled to the Nineva plains in the north (the traditional Christian area refered to in our Bible), but some who remain in the city are being herded into certain neighborhoods... the Muslims are creating Christian "ghettos" like the Nazis did to the Jews in Germany... it is such a tragedy that these Muslim invaders are treating these Catholics like cattle even thought it was OUR land first. Many Christians don't realize that stories they read in our Bible happened right there in modern Iraq... Abraham was from the area... Jonah (was was swallowed by the whale or large fish) was from modern day Mosul.

I'm sure that our Merciful God will judge these barbarians on their last day... I pray some day these people come to now the TRUE ALLAH... merciful and just. I'm sure you will pray with me that any Christian or Muslim who resorts to unprovoked violence against innocent people will be stopped.

Peace be with you,
S

 

[TashaN]

Scott, i have some questions for you if you don't mind.

1) Would you mention some of the Christian countries which allow Muslims to practice their faith at?

2) Can you please mention the countries where you claim you lived at where the Christians have to be killed just because they didn't pay the Jizyah you are talking about.

3) Do you think the Muslims are evil or their religion is evil?

4) What do you think of the situation of either the Muslims or Christians alike before the barbaric invastion by America and after?

5) Can you tell me please briefly about the problems you have with Muslims?


Thanks in advance.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

5) Can you tell me please briefly about the problems you have with Muslims?

That was an unfounded and despicable implication.

 

[TashaN]

That was an unfounded and despicable implication.

That's really strange, i didn't know that your name was Scott. :sarcastic

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's really strange, i didn't know that your name was Scott.

Yet your ignorance did not get in the way of your of your pathetic ad hominem.

 

[Hope]

My question would be, why are those of you who are Muslims reacting so defensively to this story? Scott is not accusing all Muslims of being murderers and persecutors. He is simply sharing some facts. If someone told me Christians were murdering and persecuting Muslims for their faith I would be just as appalled. I would not take it personally.

The fact of the matter is many Muslims in other parts of the world do target and persecute Christians. They are radical Muslims who believe in jihad. The same type of Muslims who flew planes into the twin towers in New York City. To deny this sect of Islam exists is to live in a fantasy world. I have even seen videos of other Muslims denouncing these radical Muslims. This is what all, peace-loving Muslims should do----instead of looking the other way and pretending these radical Muslims don't exist, or taking reports of their actions defensively, and as personal slander.

 

[TashaN]

My question would be, why are those of you who are Muslims reacting so defensively to this story? Scott is not accusing all Muslims of being murderers and persecutors. He is simply sharing some facts. If someone told me Christians were murdering and persecuting Muslims for their faith I would be just as appalled. I would not take it personally.

The fact of the matter is many Muslims in other parts of the world do target and persecute Christians. They are radical Muslims who believe in jihad. The same type of Muslims who flew planes into the twin towers in New York City. To deny this sect of Islam exists is to live in a fantasy world. I have even seen videos of other Muslims denouncing these radical Muslims. This is what all, peace-loving Muslims should do----instead of looking the other way and pretending these radical Muslims don't exist, or taking reports of their actions defensively, and as personal slander.

If you don't know my religion so please go and do your reading.

Jihad is part of my faith and you better understand what Jiahd is before bashing my beliefs, period.

Also, would you feel nice if i said helppppp The Christians are killing the Muslims !!!

Only ignorants do this act of generalization or those with hateful intentions.

Anyway, i'm just asking questions, nothing else, in case you were refering to my post.

 

[MaddLlama]

I'm a little confused. Do the Muslims here believe that these sorts of things don't happen and are just stories made up by people who have a grudge against Islam, or do you believe that it is happening but is un-Islamic? I agree with Hope that to deny that things like this happen would be to hide your head in the sand.

Criticism is a part of life. Christians deal with criticism of people who bomb abortion clinics, and people who are Rev. Phelps butt-buddies.What's the difference?

Christians in the US and I would think in the UK do often persecute Muslims just because they are Muslim, and/or not white. There's no reason not to come out and say so. If Muslims are killing Christians just because they're Christian, is it persecuting Muslims to come out and say so? There is a difference between saying "Some sects of Islam are doing this to Christians in contries with an Islamic government", and quite another to say "all Muslims are evil and killing Christians!!1!!". This thread is not the latter.

Some links for the topic of the thread:

Suffering & Persecution of Christians & the Persecuted Church - persecution.org
The Voice of the Martyrs

They cover world-wide and not just Iraq or the Middle East, though.