Persecuted Catholics in Iraq

[Hope]

If you don't know my religion so please go and do your reading.

Jihad is part of my faith and you better understand what Jiahd is before bashing my beliefs, period.

I'm not bashing your beliefs in any way, shape or form. I'm sorry you feel this way.

Jihad: literally means to "struggle", notably to "struggle in the way of God" or "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society. It is sometimes referred to as the sixth pillar of Islam, although it occupies no official status as such. Within Islamic jurisprudence, jihad is usually taken to mean military exertion against non-Muslim combatants but there are other ways to perform jihad as well including civil disobedience. In broader usage and interpretation, the term has accrued both violent and non-violent meanings. It can imply striving to live a moral and virtuous life, spreading and defending Islam, and fighting injustice and oppression, among other things. In the languages of non-islamic cultures, the term is usually used to refer to Muslim 'Holy War' or any violent strife invoking Allah.

Also, would you feel nice if i said helppppp The Christians are killing the Muslims !!!

I've already said I would be just as appalled if such were the case. But I would not take it personally, to mean all Christians are evil. Because all Christians aren't evil, just as all Muslims aren't evil. I have dear Muslim friends, and I have been to a Muslim country (Morocco) where I was welcomed and embraced by some of the warmest, most hospitable people on the planet. I have deep love and respect for most Muslims.

Only ignorants do this act of generalization or those with hateful intentions.

If you can say I have hateful intentions, or am ignorant, after all I have just said, then I'm sorry for you, my friend, because you are grossly mistaken.

 

[Quiddity]

Truth, I'm not understanding why you think Scott has a problem with Islam?
What he is saying is either true or it's not. Either way, how does that reflect Islamic teachings?

Catholics do stupid stuff all the time and it does no good for me to defend them.

 

[Popeyesays]

Let's put the reported situation in Iraq in the proper light.

It is NOT the current government of Iraq that is persecuting Roman Catholics. It is roving bands of religious extremists who are doing it. In fact roving bands of extremists are persecuting every religious minority and majority in Iraq at the same time.

This is sectarian violence, but not government sponsored violence.

So blame sectarianism all you like it is worthy of blame.

The only real human rights improvement in Iraq since the fall of the Baathists is the official tolerance for religion that exists there now.

The Baathist government banned the Baha`i Faith sometime around 1960. It had struggled to maintain itself for more than a century before that, but it was illegal in 1960.

The September after the fall of the Baathist government, the first Baha`i national Spiritual Assembly in almost a half-century formed and functions now.

do baha`i's get constant harrassment from sectarian sources in Iraq? you betcha! But it is not governmentally sponsored.

That makes a big difference.

When the Iraqi government bans the Roman Church in Iraq then Roman Catholics will not have civil rights anymore.

It will be just like Iran or Egypt is for Baha`i's.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Quiddity]

Let's put the reported situation in Iraq in the proper light.

It is NOT the current government of Iraq that is persecuting Roman Catholics. It is roving bands of religious extremists who are doing it. In fact roving bands of extremists are persecuting every religious minority and majority in Iraq at the same time.

This is sectarian violence, but not government sponsored violence.

So blame sectarianism all you like it is worthy of blame.

The only real human rights improvement in Iraq since the fall of the Baathists is the official tolerance for religion that exists there now.

The Baathist government banned the Baha`i Faith sometime around 1960. It had struggled to maintain itself for more than a century before that, but it was illegal in 1960.

The September after the fall of the Baathist government, the first Baha`i national Spiritual Assembly in almost a half-century formed and functions now.

do baha`i's get constant harrassment from sectarian sources in Iraq? you betcha! But it is not governmentally sponsored.

That makes a big difference.

When the Iraqi government bans the Roman Church in Iraq then Roman Catholics will not have civil rights anymore.

It will be just like Iran or Egypt is for Baha`i's.

Regards,
Scott

Who said anything about it being government sponsored?

Out of curiousity what would drive these sectarian groups to persecute Catholics? What is there contention toward them in your opinion?

 

[Popeyesays]

Who said anything about it being government sponsored?

Out of curiousity what would drive these sectarian groups to persecute Catholics? What is there contention toward them in your opinion?

The Catholics there are a tiny minority and easily used as a tool for pounding others into submission. In most Islamic countries it is the Syrian Orthodox Church that gets the preponderance of government license.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Quiddity]

The Catholics there are a tiny minority and easily used as a tool for pounding others into submission. In most Islamic countries it is the Syrian Orthodox Church that gets the preponderance of government license.

Regards,

Scott

Is there a reason why you felt the last sentence was necessary other then it being a red-herring?

Not sure this answers my question. Usually there is a political or religious purpose surrounding it. Oh well...

 

[Popeyesays]

Is there a reason why you felt the last sentence was necessary other then it being a red-herring?

Not sure this answers my question. Usually there is a political or religious purpose surrounding it. Oh well...

Of course there is a political purpose behind it. There was a political purpose behind the nazi extermination of the Jews for that matter.

i don't think it's a red-herring referring to the Syrian Church as the "Official Church" in most Muslim countries. The Roman Church sucks hind tit, so to speak, in dealing with those governments. There are centuries of precedent in dealing with the Syrian Church preferentially. It stems from the fact that The Ottoman Empire dealt exclusively with the Syrian Orthodoxy because that Church had the physical possession of the important Christian Holy Sites in Palestine. And, of course the Crusades were the instrument of Rome and since the Orthodox christians of Palestine had suffered severely at the hands of Rome, the Orthodox Christians were happy to have the upper hand in the Ottoman Empire.

A more sophisticated method of political sectarianism . . . .

Regards,
Scott

 

[Quiddity]

Of course there is a political purpose behind it. There was a political purpose behind the nazi extermination of the Jews for that matter.

Ok, I'm simply asking for the motive behind the persecution in Iraq. What are they? Land? Political disagreement? What?

i don't think it's a red-herring referring to the Syrian Church as the "Official Church" in most Muslim countries. The Roman Church sucks hind tit, so to speak, in dealing with those governments. There are centuries of precedent in dealing with the Syrian Church preferentially. It stems from the fact that The Ottoman Empire dealt exclusively with the Syrian Orthodoxy because that Church had the physical possession of the important Christian Holy Sites in Palestine. And, of course the Crusades were the instrument of Rome and since the Orthodox christians of Palestine had suffered severely at the hands of Rome, the Orthodox Christians were happy to have the upper hand in the Ottoman Empire.

A more sophisticated method of political sectarianism . . . .

The Ottoman Empire was very much intertwined with Islamic law and they were indeed gunning for Christians. It is only the latter development of the Ottoman Empire that began to incorporate Christians and Jews into confessional communities.

So you may want to call it "sectarian" but I have my doubts that is how it started.

 

[Popeyesays]

The religious sectarianism in Iraq has a political purpose--dominance in Iraq.

To be able to persecute effectively the "western influences" within Iraq is, to them, a measure of political clout.

The "Christian" interests as instituted through the Syrian Church will not be the victims of that sectarian violence. They are insulated from such by the fact they are protected by 'all' the sects as the representatives of Christianity.

It's not complicated, and it certainly has its roots as far back as the Crusades, and even the invasion of Iberia by the Moors.

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam co-existed quite well in Spain for a very long time.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Quiddity]

The religious sectarianism in Iraq has a political purpose--dominance in Iraq.

To be able to persecute effectively the "western influences" within Iraq is, to them, a measure of political clout.

The "Christian" interests as instituted through the Syrian Church will not be the victims of that sectarian violence. They are insulated from such by the fact they are protected by 'all' the sects as the representatives of Christianity.

It's not complicated, and it certainly has its roots as far back as the Crusades, and even the invasion of Iberia by the Moors.

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam co-existed quite well in Spain for a very long time.

Regards,
Scott

No doubt, it can happen. I'm just not convinced that sectarianism is always the root of it.

 

[logician]

Don't worry, we're making up for it, the "xian" nation of America is killing Muslim Iraqis by the tens of thousands.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Don't worry, we're making up for it, the "xian" nation of America is killing Muslim Iraqis by the tens of thousands.

Irresponsible rubbish! What is the Muslim death toll in Iraq and what percentage is the result of internecine Muslim Iraqi barbarism?

 

[Quiddity]

Don't worry, we're making up for it, the "xian" nation of America is killing Muslim Iraqis by the tens of thousands.

Words fail me...:areyoucra

 

[logician]

It's unbelievable that anyone denies that well over a hundred thousand Iraqis have died at the hands of butcher Bush, most of them Muslim, but some people seem to be out of touch with reality. (see above).

 

[Popeyesays]

It's unbelievable that anyone denies that well over a hundred thousand Iraqis have died at the hands of butcher Bush, most of them Muslim, but some people seem to be out of touch with reality. (see above).

It was a war, that provides all the inhumanity anyone might require.

Bush's real stupidity was in going to war without having any idea what to do afterwards.

Regards,
Scott

 

[logician]

It was a war, that provides all the inhumanity anyone might require.

Bush's real stupidity was in going to war without having any idea what to do afterwards.

Regards,
Scott

We never should have gone into Iraq to begin with, it set a horrible precedent worldwide that "preemptive" wars are OK, when the opposite is the truth.

 

[ayani]

**raises hand** i agree with wanderer. and remember the weird quasi-religious rhetoric Bush was using going in? using language like "evil" all over the place, and using his black-and-white interpretations of justice and righteousness to justify military action?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's unbelievable that anyone denies that well over a hundred thousand Iraqis have died at the hands of butcher Bush, most of them Muslim, but some people seem to be out of touch with reality. (see above).

What is unbelievable is how much time and effort you spend evading questions. Now, again, what is the Muslim death toll in Iraq and what percentage is the result of internecine Muslim Iraqi barbarism?

 

[Popeyesays]

What is unbelievable is how much time and effort you spend evading questions. Now, again, what is the Muslim death toll in Iraq and what percentage is the result of internecine Muslim Iraqi barbarism?

Don't forget Muslim/Kurdish violence.

regards,
Scott

 

[Hope]

How is a war----supposedly started over oil and weapons of mass destruction----at all analogous to a group of people being persecuted merely for their faith? I fail to see the correlation.