Persecuted Catholics in Iraq

[Popeyesays]

I disagree with you. Shar'iah didn't fail but some Muslims failed, and the most honest answer comes from you, so i'll just quote you.

The Shar'iah fails IN A MODERN AGE--is what I said. The biggest failure of the Shari'aih today is that it is not allowed to foster basic human rights.

This is NOT the fault of Muhammad, it is the fault of His followers assuming perfection is guaranteed without alteration of their attitudes.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Thank you my friend... typing is one of the few things I can do.... it gives me an excuse to give my wife for being online so much.... hehe

Forgive my ignorance, but the only real knowledge I have is the US..... my friends at the Islamic Society of Western Massachusetts are the only Muslims I interact with.... and that is only at our twice monthly get togethers. Although they can't stand the looks of fear and snide comments they get from ignorant people, they would agree with me that there is no general persecution against them or organized government plan to burden them with additional tax or anything like that. The Society is a tax-exempt group just like the Catholic Church and enjoys all the rights and privileges that all groups in the US who assemble peacefully enjoy.

Peace,
S

You are most welcome.

By the way, do you really believe that the US is a Christian country?

As far as i know, there is only one Christian country/state called the Vatican. I don't know of any other country which we can say that its a christian country other than that.

Truth,

I also forgot to point out that Muslims in this country are free to go door to door and attempt to covert people to Islam. They set up booths in our malls and my corner store (owned by Muslims) have several tracts about Islam set up right near the register. These people are FREE to perform these actions... they will not be ARRESTED and JAILED for doing so... I would have to say that this would not be true for Christians in many Muslim countries.

Would you agree?

Other than Saudi Arabia which i was born, raised and lived at, i don't know of any country which doesn't allow people to practice their faith, and that's because there is a hadith of Prophet Mohammed ordering the Muslims that the Arabian peninsula should be cleared of any faith other than Islam. Thats why Saudi Arabia is the only country which you are not allowed in it to hold a cross and preach to people about Christianity.

Nevertheless, as far as i know as well, all the other countries have Christian, jews, etc citizens and those citizens have their own churches which stayed there and have been protected by Muslims through ages, and they can practice their faith as well, but i can't be sure lately whether there is any injustice actions have been done against them as what is happening in Iraq today. If it happened then the churches in the muslim countries today is the greatest sign for you and everyone that this have nothing to do with the pure teachings of Islam but it's just all about human beings grudge and self evil.

Needless to say that Prophet Mohammed said to the Muslims--and you can find this in the hadith collections--that anyone who harm or bother the non-muslims who live within so he himself--prophet Mohammed--will speaks in the name of those non-muslims in front of God in judgement day against those muslims who did this injustice.

What is there of a punishment for a Muslim than one of his beloved Prophets standing against him on judgement day, you tell me?

Prophet said so to ensure the protection of the non-muslims within any islamic state because he is fully aware of the evil within human beings and the influence of Satan on them.

 

[TashaN]

The Shar'iah fails IN A MODERN AGE--is what I said. The biggest failure of the Shari'aih today is that it is not allowed to foster basic human rights.

This is NOT the fault of Muhammad, it is the fault of His followers assuming perfection is guaranteed without alteration of their attitudes.

Regards,
Scott

This is not a failure of the Shar'iah itself because you are talking about the Shar'iah as something like a book or a sacred text. Shar'iah is a law based on islamic teachings and there is no reason which stops it from developing with time but at the same time, to not go against the basic teaching of Islam. So i'll say, and i'm really feel upset about this as every muslim should be, many Muslims failed but that doesn't mean the basic law by God have failed.

 

[Popeyesays]

This is not a failure of the Shar'iah itself because you are talking about the Shar'iah as something like a book or a sacred text. Shar'iah is a law based on islamic teachings and there is no reason which stops it from developing with time but at the same time, to not go against the basic teaching of Islam. So i'll say, and i'm really feel upset about this as every muslim should be, many Muslims failed but that doesn't mean the basic law by God have failed.

No matter what the source, a code of law is administered by mankind, not by God. If the administrators are faulty, the code becomes faulty, in that the code no longer serves its purpose.

Regards,

Scott

 

[TashaN]

No matter what the source, a code of law is administered by mankind, not by God. If the administrators are faulty, the code becomes faulty, in that the code no longer serves its purpose.

Regards,

Scott

If the administrators are faulty, the code becomes faulty?

Do you mean its the same when someone says if the administrators of a certain company who use Mircrosoft Windows are faulty, then the code becomes faulty as well, and therefore, we should abandon Microsoft products because it fails somewhere in on this earth as a result of the faailure of some administrators? :sarcastic

Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me. I understand that you need to prove this in order to validate the Baha'i faith, but believing so will not make it right just because you want it to be so.

 

[Booko]

Indeed, i spent the last few days to research this issue and i found out some sources which talks about the some Christians in Iraq being forced to pay some tax but this have nothing to do with the purpose of the original concept of Jizyah in Islam, and Booko did well in explaining it in her pervious posts.

I'm a bit mystified by what's going on in Iraq, mainly because I don't know who has governmental authority to tax. If there is evidence that any legitimate gov't there is collecting jizyah, I would be interested to hear it.

But considering the woeful conditions there, I would not be surprised to find that some local "leader" took it upon himself to shake down the local Christians. But that's no more Islamic than that Mafia shaking down local businesses, if that's all it turns out to be.

 

[Booko]

I also forgot to point out that Muslims in this country are free to go door to door and attempt to covert people to Islam. They set up booths in our malls and my corner store (owned by Muslims) have several tracts about Islam set up right near the register. These people are FREE to perform these actions... they will not be ARRESTED and JAILED for doing so... I would have to say that this would not be true for Christians in many Muslim countries.

Would you agree?

I've met several street teachers over the years here, teaching Islam. It's made for some very interesting conversations.

 

[logician]

Persecuted Catholics in IRaq is the least of Iraq's problems.

 

[Popeyesays]

If the administrators are faulty, the code becomes faulty?

Do you mean its the same when someone says if the administrators of Mircrosoft Windows are faulty, then the code becomes faulty as well, and therefore, we should abandon Microsoft products because it fails somewhere in on this earth as a result of the faailure of some administrators? :sarcastic

Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me. I understand that you need to prove this in order to validate the Baha'i faith, but believing so will not make it right just because you want it to be so.

Actually, Microsoft products ARE pretty damn faulty, Microsoft fixes them as the faults are made apparent.

God renews his covenant because mankind needs Him to do so. That Revelation passes through infancy, childhood, maturity, decrepitude and death is because of the nature of MAN, not the nature of God. But God chose to make man the way man is, so His purpose has to reflect that reality.

Believing that the Revelation given to Muhammad is exempt from the reality of man's nature does not make it so--to paraphrase your words.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Actually, Microsoft products ARE pretty damn faulty, Microsoft fixes them as the faults are made apparent.

God renews his covenant because mankind needs Him to do so. That Revelation passes through infancy, childhood, maturity, decrepitude and death is because of the nature of MAN, not the nature of God. But God chose to make man the way man is, so His purpose has to reflect that reality.

Believing that the Revelation given to Muhammad is exempt from the reality of man's nature does not make it so--to paraphrase your words.

Regards,
Scott

God showed us and inspired the believers on how to expand on the laws to make them suit new times. That doesn't mean we have to alter it "God forbid" but we can expand on it and confirm it. The real law made by God is still preserved and pure so any other attempt to have other laws are not necassary because God wants us to choose how to live our lives as long as we obey him and been successful on following his teachings.

P.S. Microsoft make errors but God doesn't. my analogy was just relative to the point i was trying to make.

 

[Booko]

By the way, do you really believe that the US is a Christian country?

I like the way the author of "Religious Literacy" put it. The U.S. is a country of Christians, but the gov't is not Christian, it's secular.

As far as i know, there is only one Christian country/state called the Vatican. I don't know of any other country which we can say that its a christian country other than that.

Some countries have had Christianity as the official religion. Ethiopia was one of those, until fairly recently. Some European countries have a form of Christianity as their state religion, even though there may be more atheists and non-Christian theists living there these days (ask Anders about Sweden). The gov'ts seem to be pretty secular, though.

Other than Saudi Arabia which i was born, raised and lived at, i don't know of any country which doesn't allow people to practice their faith, and that's because there is a hadith of Prophet Mohammed ordering the Muslims that the Arabian peninsula should be cleared of any faith other than Islam. Thats why Saudi Arabia is the only country which you are not allowed in it to hold a cross and preach to people about Christianity.

Countries I would look into first would be Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Needless to say that Prophet Mohammed said to the Muslims--and you can find this in the hadith collections--that anyone who harm or bother the non-muslims who live within so he himself--prophet Mohammed--will speaks in the name of those non-muslims in front of God in judgement day against those muslims who did this injustice.

There are many other examples from the life of Muhammad Himself that show his intent towards People of the Book. His entrance into Jerusalem alongside the Christian Patriarch was quite cordial. He only refused to enter into the church to pray because he didn't want to give Muslims the idea that they should take over the church and invade the Christians' services and sacred space.

What is there of a punishment for a Muslim than one of his beloved Prophets standing against him on judgement day, you tell me?

I can't think of much. I think it bears pondering that within a Christian context, Christ warns to beware of "wolves in sheep's clothing" who lead astray the very elect. Islam doesn't seem immune to this either, but that is no fault of Muhammad's any more than it is Christ's.

Prophet said so to ensure the protection of the non-muslims within any islamic state because he is fully aware of the evil within human beings and the influence of Satan on them.

Unfortunately, my religion isn't classified as People of the Book and so we have no protection, nor are we afforded any. There is a limit to the protections offered those of other faiths, which perhaps is what Scott meant about the problems of sharia in the modern age.

Only Abrahamic religions are protected (well, and Zoroastrians too), but no one else is. In this increasingly global society, there's a lot of "else" out there.

 

[Popeyesays]

God showed us and inspired the believers on how to expand on the laws to make them suit new times. That doesn't mean we have to alter it "God forbid" but we can expand on it and confirm it. The real law made by God is still preserved and pure so any other attempt to have other laws are not necassary because God wants us to choose how to live our lives as long as we obey him and been successful on following his teachings.

That is exactly why the covenant must be renewed from my point of view. My Holy Texts confirm that.

P.S. Microsoft make errors but God doesn't. my analogy was just relative to the point i was trying to make.

Well, I do not think Bill Gates makes any claim to Revelation, but I cannot say the same for representatives of Microsoft. LOL

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

I like the way the author of "Religious Literacy" put it. The U.S. is a country of Christians, but the gov't is not Christian, it's secular.

Then its no more a Christian country than Turkey being an Islamic one even though the majority in Turkey are Muslims.

Some countries have had Christianity as the official religion. Ethiopia was one of those, until fairly recently. Some European countries have a form of Christianity as their state religion, even though there may be more atheists and non-Christian theists living there these days (ask Anders about Sweden). The gov'ts seem to be pretty secular, though.

For now, i guess thre is NONE, but the Vatican.

Countries I would look into first would be Pakistan and Afghanistan.

If there are Christians citizens there so its not fair if they didn't allow them to practice their faith freely, and its against islamic teachings.

There are many other examples from the life of Muhammad Himself that show his intent towards People of the Book. His entrance into Jerusalem alongside the Christian Patriarch was quite cordial. He only refused to enter into the church to pray because he didn't want to give Muslims the idea that they should take over the church and invade the Christians' services and sacred space.

You are right in the example, but that one wasn't Prophet Mohammed but the second Caliph, Omar bin Al-khatab.

I can't think of much. I think it bears pondering that within a Christian context, Christ warns to beware of "wolves in sheep's clothing" who lead astray the very elect. Islam doesn't seem immune to this either, but that is no fault of Muhammad's any more than it is Christ's.

I agree with you.

Unfortunately, my religion isn't classified as People of the Book and so we have no protection, nor are we afforded any. There is a limit to the protections offered those of other faiths, which perhaps is what Scott meant about the problems of sharia in the modern age.

Only Abrahamic religions are protected (well, and Zoroastrians too), but no one else is. In this increasingly global society, there's a lot of "else" out there.

Well, according to my own understanding, protection is guranteed to Ahl Aldhimah, but not only Ahl Al-kitab (people of the book), and Ahl Aldhimmah are all those who make treaties with the Muslims to live in peace with regardless of their beliefs. Maybe the treatment of the people of the book is different just in term of the laws regarding marriage and inheritance, etc.

 

[TashaN]

That is exactly why the covenant must be renewed from my point of view. My Holy Texts confirm that.

You see, this is the problem. It's because your holy text say so, not because of certain facts no matter how much you try to justify it.

Well, I do not think Bill Gates makes any claim to Revelation, but I cannot say the same for representatives of Microsoft. LOL

ha ha ha.

 

[Popeyesays]

You see, this is the problem. It's because your holy text say so, not because of certain facts no matter how much you try to justify it.



ha ha ha.

Certain facts? Yeah, I accept certain facts, and so do you.

"And when Thou didst purpose to make Thyself known unto men, Thou didst successively reveal the Manifestations of Thy Cause, and ordained each to be a sign of Thy Revelation among Thy people, and the Day-Spring of Thine invisible Self amidst Thy creatures, until the time when, as decreed by Thee, all Thy previous Revelations culminated in Him Whom Thou hast appointed as the Lord of all who are in the heaven of revelation and the kingdom of creation, Him Whom Thou hast established as the Sovereign Lord of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. He it was Whom Thou hast determined to be the Herald of Thy Most Great 129 Revelation and the Announcer of Thy Most Ancient Splendor. In this Thou hadst no other purpose except to try them who have manifested Thy most excellent titles unto all who are in heaven and on earth. He it was Whom Thou hast commanded to establish His covenant with all created things."
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 128)

Regards,
Scott

 

[Scott1]

Needless to say that Prophet Mohammed said to the Muslims--and you can find this in the hadith collections--that anyone who harm or bother the non-muslims who live within so he himself--prophet Mohammed--will speaks in the name of those non-muslims in front of God in judgement day against those muslims who did this injustice.

.... and now we come to what I believe is the fundamental flaw in your faith.... personal interpretation. Obviously there are Muslims in this world whose actions are not in accord with what you say the Prophet instructed... they either interpreted it differently than you or are hopelessly insane.... every Muslim then is free to interpret your faith however they choose... you can say that's not the case but the world speaks to a different reality..... I just can't decide which group is the REAL Islam.

Pray for peace,
S

 

[Booko]

Then its no more a Christian country than Turkey being an Islamic one even though the majority in Turkey are Muslims.

Yes, I think the situations are pretty similar.

If there are Christians citizens there so its not fair if they didn't allow them to practice their faith freely, and its against islamic teachings.

I'm not sure there are any native populations in either country, but certainly there are people working in those countries who are Christians. There are plenty of aid agencies, and many of the people serving in those roles are Christian.

Well, according to my own understanding, protection is guranteed to Ahl Aldhimah, but not only Ahl Al-kitab (people of the book), and Ahl Aldhimmah are all those who make treaties with the Muslims to live in peace with regardless of their beliefs. Maybe the treatment of the people of the book is different just in term of the laws regarding marriage and inheritance, etc.

Would that your understanding was more common in Muslim countries, Truth. In many if not most of them we cannot openly admit our faith without being in danger, have no or little protection under the law, and surely we are the most peaceful inhabitants one could want.

But we are heretics, so there is no protection. I cannot travel into most Muslim countries, and for those that I can, our highest institutions would recommend I do not and to hide my religious identity unless the law requires I divulge it.

I have Baha'i friends living in Dubai, and they love it there. The husband works in Saudi often, but has to leave his religious identity behind when he does.

I have other friends who lived in Saudi years ago, but they were never allowed to openly acknowledge, much less practice their faith.

The problems of Baha'is in Iran are known around the world, and thankfully the world has come to our defense as much as it can. We face real persecution in Egypt as well.

And despite this, the Baha'is believe that Muhammad is a Prophet, that the Qu'ran is God's Word, and that Islam is true, and that the vast majority of Muslims are just honest people looking to worship God as best they can.

 

[Smoke]

The Catholics there are a tiny minority and easily used as a tool for pounding others into submission. In most Islamic countries it is the Syrian Orthodox Church that gets the preponderance of government license.

"Syrian Orthodox Church" usually refers to the Oriental Orthodox (non-Chalcedonian) church more properly known (nowadays) as the Syriac Orthodox Church. The corresponding Eastern Orthodox (Chalcedonian) church headquartered at Damascus is usually referred to as the Antiochian Orthodox Church (or the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch). I'm not sure which one you mean.

The largest group among the Christian minority in any given Muslim country varies; in Syria, it is the Antiochian Orthodox, for instance, and in Iraq it is the Chaldean Catholics.