Persecuted Catholics in Iraq

[Booko]

I don't know where you live, but be assured that not all Muslims share your idea that persecuting non-believers is against Islamic teaching... in fact I've been told that the "tax" extorted from Christians is a command from the Koran...maybe you could clear that up.

I'll clear that up for you, Scott. That "tax" put on non-Muslims, as mentioned in the Qu'ran, was to provide for the defense of the nation.

Muslim men were expected to fight and also to pay zakat (alms). Non-Muslims were NOT expected to fight in defense of the nation, but were required to pay for support of the army. If they wanted to fight, then they did not have to pay the poll tax.

According to the law put forth in the Qu'ran, Muslims would always have to sacrifice more than non-Muslims. They paid money for zakat + served in the armed forces.

Non-Muslims either served in the armed forces or paid the poll tax, and the poll tax was still less than just zakat.

But it's a convenient half-truth spread by Christians ever since the spread of Islam, if their intent was to cast Islam in a bad light. All you are doing is continuing to spread this misinformation.

I would suggest you not assume your sources are the best on this topic. The lies began over a millenium ago are still being repeated as if they were true. Do your own research, and not just from Christian sources.

There are sources that are neither Christian nor Muslim, and which are less likely to have an axe to grind.

Oh, and just on the off chance you're tempted to claim that I'm biased in favor of Islam because I happen to believe Muhammad was a Prophet, keep in mind that the main source of abuse and martyrdom among my coreligionists since our beginning has been mostly at the hand of Muslims.

I daresay what Christians have had to endure is pretty tame compared to how we've been treated, since we don't even qualify as People of the Book and have no such protection under Shariah.

You know, I've had to counter this calumny and misinformation so many times in the past year, if I had any sense I would write up an article and post it so I could just reference a link.

If you have any specific information on abuses of this law going on now, I would be interested in reading them. Obviously it's possible that someone's gone too far. As Khalila pointed out, other laws have gone too far in places too. But the blame does not lie in the Qu'ran, but at the feet of those who abuse that text for their own reasons. Well, Islam is hardly the only religion that's had a bit of a problem in that area at times.

 

[Booko]

Jihad: literally means to "struggle", notably to "struggle in the way of God" or "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society. It is sometimes referred to as the sixth pillar of Islam, although it occupies no official status as such. Within Islamic jurisprudence, jihad is usually taken to mean military exertion against non-Muslim combatants but there are other ways to perform jihad as well including civil disobedience. In broader usage and interpretation, the term has accrued both violent and non-violent meanings. It can imply striving to live a moral and virtuous life, spreading and defending Islam, and fighting injustice and oppression, among other things.In the languages of non-islamic cultures, the term is usually used to refer to Muslim 'Holy War' or any violent strife invoking Allah.

Hope, I think it's worth pondering why the struggle within oneself to obey the law of God is referred to as the "Greater Jihad" (al-jihad al-akbar).

 

[Booko]

Who said anything about it being government sponsored?

When there's talk of "Muslim nations" or "Muslim countries" that throws it into the realm of gov't, does it not?

I'm aware that sectarian violence is driving away a disproportionate number of Christians. Actually, I'm equally appalled that there seems to be zip for news coverage here about it. Our news agencies act like it's only Sunnis, Shia and Kurds who live in Iraq, and that's not the case. And I think a great many Americans would like to know their coreligionists are fleeing in droves due to sectarian violence. For one thing, they might want to help these people in their exile, you know?

I applaud Scott for bringing up the subject here. I don't see it many other places.

 

[Scott1]

Truth,

Sorry I've taken so long to respond to this thread.... I was injured at work last week (they think it's a torn rotator cuff) and I've been busy with going to the doctor and what not.... but since I have some time, I'd be happy now to continue our conversation:

1) Would you mention some of the Christian countries which allow Muslims to practice their faith at?

There is a difference between being "allowed" to do something and an environment where religious expression is recognized as a basic human right. My time in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and a few others (maybe not the countries as a whole, but communites) have shown me that Muslims to not recognize my right as a human being to worship in peace.

Do you honestly expect me or the people of this forum to believe that I could set up a Christian information booth, hand out free Bibles/rosaries etc. on a street corner in Saudi Arabia?

I do understand there is a difference between the faith of Islam/the people of Islam/and the rule of law in a specific country, but I don't think that I'm speaking a falsehood by pointing out that in every Muslim country I've ever visited just walking down the street wearing a Christian cross would be a "bad idea" (as I was told by my Muslim interpreter).

Some info you may want to look at:
Christian Assyrians face Oppression and Murder in Iraq with the Rise of Islamists and Kurdish Power

Murdered Reporter's Final Dispatch: Mosul's Christian Community Dwindles

Kidnappings tear at Iraq's frayed social fabric

.... and, as you know, it's not just Muslims who persecte Christians: Persecution Worldwide

Christian Freedom International

In response to your second question:
The comment refered to the statement made by the Bishop in the audio clip.... he is a native of Iraq and was speaking from his personal experiences in the country... I can't tell you from personal experience that anyone is killed for not paying the "Christian tax".

3) Do you think the Muslims are evil or their religion is evil?

I believe God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.".... so I don't believe that a person is evil or not based upon the fact that he/she is a Muslim.

As far as my opinion on "their religion", I believe that "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

4) What do you think of the situation of either the Muslims or Christians alike before the barbaric invastion by America and after?

I can only relay what Bishop Jammo said about that. He stated that before the barbaric and evil invasion of Iraq Christians were BETTER OFF under the regime of Sadaam. Although not afforded some basic human rights that should be afforded to all men/women in a civilized society, he stated that they face a MUCH WORSE situation now without law and order.

5) Can you tell me please briefly about the problems you have with Muslims?

Kinda a silly question.... hopefully you're smart enough to infer from my previous answers that I evaluate my opinions on people as individuals and their actions.

Thanks in advance.

My pleasure.... looking forward to your reply.

S

 

[Hope]

Hope, I think it's worth pondering why the struggle within oneself to obey the law of God is referred to as the "Greater Jihad" (al-jihad al-akbar).

I did not know this. Thanks for enlightening me.

 

[Scott1]

I'll clear that up for you, Scott. That "tax" put on non-Muslims, as mentioned in the Qu'ran, was to provide for the defense of the nation.

Thanks for clearing this up... it's hard to discuss anything with Muslims as of late.... any of my questions are seemed as an attack, when in fact I have no axe to grind and am just trying to learn.

But it's a convenient half-truth spread by Christians ever since the spread of Islam, if their intent was to cast Islam in a bad light. All you are doing is continuing to spread this misinformation.

You can be sure I'll use this information to continue my research and in the future explain to other misinformed Christians what the "tax" actually is.

Do your own research, and not just from Christian sources.

Good advice.... it's difficult to get an "impartial" source on this.... the secular sources are not exactly well known for their attempt to present the truth about anything..... but I will try.

Thanks Booko,
S

 

[Smoke]

I'll clear that up for you, Scott. That "tax" put on non-Muslims, as mentioned in the Qu'ran, was to provide for the defense of the nation.

Muslim men were expected to fight and also to pay zakat (alms). Non-Muslims were NOT expected to fight in defense of the nation, but were required to pay for support of the army. If they wanted to fight, then they did not have to pay the poll tax.

According to the law put forth in the Qu'ran, Muslims would always have to sacrifice more than non-Muslims. They paid money for zakat + served in the armed forces.

The dhimmi were not exempted from military service as some sort of privilege, though, Sharon. They were forbidden to bear arms at all, in order to keep them defenseless against their Muslim overlords. Except, of course, for Christian children who were kidnaped for the Janissaries -- but they were also converted to Islam.

 

[Booko]

Sorry I've taken so long to respond to this thread.... I was injured at work last week (they think it's a torn rotator cuff) and I've been busy with going to the doctor and what not....

I'm sorry to hear that, Scott.

There is a difference between being "allowed" to do something and an environment where religious expression is recognized as a basic human right. My time in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and a few others (maybe not the countries as a whole, but communites) have shown me that Muslims to not recognize my right as a human being to worship in peace.

Have you been to Turkey? How are things in Kosovo (I really have no idea)? Muslim parts of Bosnia? Indonesia? Dubai? Kuwait? UAE?

Honestly, you pick among the worst possible examples in Pakistan and Saudi.

Indonesia I have one example of, at least. A Christian college chum of mine has lived there for years with no problems over his religion.

And I have Baha'i friends living in Dubai with no difficulty, so I'd be surprised if the Christians are having any difficulties.

Do you honestly expect me or the people of this forum to believe that I could set up a Christian information booth, hand out free Bibles/rosaries etc. on a street corner in Saudi Arabia?

I know you can't. Baha'is cannot even admit to their religion there. Christians are quite limited in their expressions of their faith. Are they even allowed to build churches any more? Well, there are some users from Saudi here. Perhaps someone will clarify this.

I do understand there is a difference between the faith of Islam/the people of Islam/and the rule of law in a specific country, but I don't think that I'm speaking a falsehood by pointing out that in every Muslim country I've ever visited just walking down the street wearing a Christian cross would be a "bad idea" (as I was told by my Muslim interpreter).

I'm not sure wearing a hijab in Western countries would be a good idea in a lot of places either, Scott. Some European countries and cities have gone so far as to ban their use, which strikes me as an odd expression of religious freedom. Of course, Turkey has some severe limitations on hijab as well, though they have some historical reasons for that.

Personally, I have to wonder about the insecurity of societies that can't tolerate someone wearing hijab or a cross in public. :areyoucra

 

[Popeyesays]

The dhimmi were not exempted from military service as some sort of privilege, though, Sharon. They were forbidden to bear arms at all, in order to keep them defenseless against their Muslim overlords. Except, of course, for Christian children who were kidnaped for the Janissaries -- but they were also converted to Islam.

In some cases, yes. The dhimmi are second class citizens and that is one of the reasons Shar'iah fails in a modern age. This application of dhimmitude also makes Muhammad a liar when He said "There is to be no compulsion in religion." Mark you, it's not Muhammad's fault His followers have perverted His Message.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Booko]

Good advice.... it's difficult to get an "impartial" source on this.... the secular sources are not exactly well known for their attempt to present the truth about anything..... but I will try.

It is difficult, because most of the material put out there is from sources that have axes to grind. I've had the best luck in the history section of academic libraries. Those sources are unfortunately not always readily available online.

I wish I had more current material about actual practice, but I can't say I've run across anything reliable. I haven't exactly looked very hard either.

 

[Booko]

The dhimmi were not exempted from military service as some sort of privilege, though, Sharon. They were forbidden to bear arms at all, in order to keep them defenseless against their Muslim overlords. Except, of course, for Christian children who were kidnaped for the Janissaries -- but they were also converted to Islam.

No, if they were unable to pay the poll tax they were expected to fight. What period of history and what area are you talking about, MB?

 

[TashaN]

The dhimmi were not exempted from military service as some sort of privilege, though, Sharon. They were forbidden to bear arms at all, in order to keep them defenseless against their Muslim overlords. Except, of course, for Christian children who were kidnaped for the Janissaries -- but they were also converted to Islam.

Can you back up your silly claims?

 

[Scott1]

I'm sorry to hear that, Scott.

Thank you my friend... I hope to FINALLY have an MRI this week and we'll see if I need surgery.

Have you been to Turkey? How are things in Kosovo (I really have no idea)? Muslim parts of Bosnia? Indonesia? Dubai? Kuwait? UAE?

Turkey was very nice (in all aspects) ... but I'm told they are the most (if not only) secular Muslim country. My time in Bosnia was in the military, so I doubt I got to experience an accurate view of the people. My time in Kuwait and the UAE was limited.... but again, I found them too be very tollerant...... so I guess you are right that I did not use the most "fair" examples..... but I must say that one oppresive regime on this planet is too many.

I'm not sure wearing a hijab in Western countries would be a good idea in a lot of places either, Scott. Some European countries and cities have gone so far as to ban their use, which strikes me as an odd expression of religious freedom. Of course, Turkey has some severe limitations on hijab as well, though they have some historical reasons for that.

You are right, of course..... but I will speak out against ANY discrimination.... and have in the past..... I pray that one day all countries and people will allow total freedom to worship in peace.

Personally, I have to wonder about the insecurity of societies that can't tolerate someone wearing hijab or a cross in public.

Yep.... but in all fairness, I get a lot of flack in this country for carrying around a rosary.... mostly from other Christians.... so ignorance and persecution is not ONLY a Muslim problem.

Pray for peace and tolerance,
S

 

[TashaN]

Ok, well then could you answer my questions from the post you first replied to?

Do you mean this one?

I'm a little confused. Do the Muslims here believe that these sorts of things don't happen and are just stories made up by people who have a grudge against Islam, or do you believe that it is happening but is un-Islamic?

It's indeed happening but it's un-islamic.

I remember that i talked once with this issue with ayani in another thread long time a go and you just have to have a look at it to know its nature and how respectful it was.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/abrahamic-religions/39860-mandeans-iraq.html#post604194

In general, the nature of any OP of these definitely either work to achieve presenting facts or just to provoke some faith's followers and have cheap shots using some current issues, and the OP of this thread is of the nature of the later one whether you agree with me or not.

I have been looking for your questions and i found it in the pervious page, and if you have more questions please ask, or direct me to a particular post of yours.

Thanks in advance.

 

[TashaN]

Good, then you shouldn't have any problem with this thread.

I already said what i wanted to say about the purpose of this thread and no need to repeat myself.

Don't think for a second others within Islam don't intepret it or implement it differently then you understand it.

They sure do, and that doesn't mean by anyway that their acts are based on Islam but they just want to either serve their own interests or others'.

What this have to do with it?

Forget it if you don't get it.

 

[Popeyesays]

One cannot judge the worth of The Messenger, nor the Truth of His Book by the actions of His followers. Each of those followers has the responsibility before God for his own actions. In each and every instance the Messenger has spoken the Will of God and called upon His followers to submit themselves to the will of God. That submission is a process and there are vast opportunities and tests available in following the Message.

Many Christians along the way have failed the tests and acted in ways that sorrow God.

Same for Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Zarathustrans, Jews, Baha`i's and others.

To blame the Messenger for the failures of His followers is to ignore the import of Their Message.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Truth,

Sorry I've taken so long to respond to this thread.... I was injured at work last week (they think it's a torn rotator cuff) and I've been busy with going to the doctor and what not.... but since I have some time, I'd be happy now to continue our conversation

I'm sorry to hear this. Hey man, please take it easy on yourself. We will go no where, and you take care of yourself.

Do you honestly expect me or the people of this forum to believe that I could set up a Christian information booth, hand out free Bibles/rosaries etc. on a street corner in Saudi Arabia?

I'll answer this question after you answer my first question which is:

1) Would you mention some of the Christian countries which allow the Muslims to practice their faith?

In response to your second question:
The comment refered to the statement made by the Bishop in the audio clip.... he is a native of Iraq and was speaking from his personal experiences in the country... I can't tell you from personal experience that anyone is killed for not paying the "Christian tax".

Indeed, i spent the last few days to research this issue and i found out some sources which talks about the some Christians in Iraq being forced to pay some tax but this have nothing to do with the purpose of the original concept of Jizyah in Islam, and Booko did well in explaining it in her pervious posts.

If you still have doubts about what Booko or me are saying then don't hesitate to ask and i'll try to answer you with the little knowledge i have, for i'm not a scholar but just someone who strive to learn everyday about his faith and others as well.

I believe God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.".... so I don't believe that a person is evil or not based upon the fact that he/she is a Muslim.

As far as my opinion on "their religion", I believe that "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

I can only relay what Bishop Jammo said about that. He stated that before the barbaric and evil invasion of Iraq Christians were BETTER OFF under the regime of Sadaam. Although not afforded some basic human rights that should be afforded to all men/women in a civilized society, he stated that they face a MUCH WORSE situation now without law and order.

Kinda a silly question.... hopefully you're smart enough to infer from my previous answers that I evaluate my opinions on people as individuals and their actions.

My pleasure.... looking forward to your reply.

S

Thank you for spending the time to reply to me even though you were injured. I hope that we can forget the misunderstanding we had at the beginning of this thread.

Sometimes, it's just that i have to take some time to believe that there are really some people out there who still don't understand what is Islam and its teachings, so forgive any shortcoming in my part. I'm just a huamn being after all, and i'm just a representative of my own self and i'm not perfect enough to juge Islam through my own understanding or actions, and i'm just trying my best.

 

[TashaN]

In some cases, yes. The dhimmi are second class citizens and that is one of the reasons Shar'iah fails in a modern age.

I disagree with you. Shar'iah didn't fail but some Muslims failed, and the most honest answer comes from you, so i'll just quote you.

One cannot judge the worth of The Messenger, nor the Truth of His Book by the actions of His followers. Each of those followers has the responsibility before God for his own actions.

 

[Scott1]

I'm sorry to hear this. Hey man, please take it easy on yourself. We will go no where, and you take care of yourself.

Thank you my friend... typing is one of the few things I can do.... it gives me an excuse to give my wife for being online so much.... hehe

1) Would you mention some of the Christian countries which allow the Muslims to practice their faith?

Forgive my ignorance, but the only real knowledge I have is the US..... my friends at the Islamic Society of Western Massachusetts are the only Muslims I interact with.... and that is only at our twice monthly get togethers. Although they can't stand the looks of fear and snide comments they get from ignorant people, they would agree with me that there is no general persecution against them or organized government plan to burden them with additional tax or anything like that. The Society is a tax-exempt group just like the Catholic Church and enjoys all the rights and privileges that all groups in the US who assemble peacefully enjoy.

Peace,
S

 

[Scott1]

Truth,

I also forgot to point out that Muslims in this country are free to go door to door and attempt to covert people to Islam. They set up booths in our malls and my corner store (owned by Muslims) have several tracts about Islam set up right near the register. These people are FREE to perform these actions... they will not be ARRESTED and JAILED for doing so... I would have to say that this would not be true for Christians in many Muslim countries.

Would you agree?