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Personal Views: The Trinity

Freelancer7

Active Member
lol you make me smile katzpur, i'm a bit of a slow doddery ol'chap sometimes ; ) the only bit that is slightly wrong is that id imagine the father could feel the holy ghosts heart pimping as they are supposedly married in heaven, but the son is always on the look out and looking after the father to a certain degree, even though the father is trying to bring an understanding to everything, one wood imagine.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
There are a few canards we should dispense with in discussing this issue.

First, it is dubious to argue that because the word does not appear in the New Testament that "trinity" is not a biblical concept. The word "omnipotent" doesn't appear either, but it's clear from what the bible DOES say that the God described in scripture is omnipotent. What holders of the trinity doctrine affirm is that the NT contains expressions and intuitions which ENTAIL the trinity.

Second, and this is related to the first point, the doctrine of the trinity didn't just all of a sudden appear out of nowhere in the context of fourth and fifth century debates; nor was the discussion an ivory tower affair among high-falutin' philosophers. This was (and is) a bread and butter theological issue with serious implications for ecclesiology (theology of the church), missiology (theology of the church's task), and soteriology (theology of salvation). It is simply a matter of historical fact that differing views of God lead to much different understandings of everything else. I leave for homework checking that out.

Third, the doctrine of the trinity, in its nicene formulations and following did in fact use technical language and even had to invent or reapply existing terminology in order to make the formulation. (I have in mind here the substance/person distinction.) As a result of this, people have accused the church of lapsing into paganism or incoherence. Not so. Understandably, the intuitions I referred to in my first point provoked questions from the church and from those the church sought to reach. To answer these questions required a certain reinvention of language. Those basic intuitions required some high-falutin' philosophical work by people with more brains than most of us can ever hope to presume to have, yet the trinity is accessible to laypersons. If it weren't, there wouldn't have been any point in elaborating the trinity. How could anyone hope to respond to a message that was utterly incomprehensible?

That said, misunderstanding is possible. Some of this is a matter of figuring out the concept. Admittedly, it's not immediately straightforward, but it doesn't take a Ph.D. to get it. But some of it is really just churlishness, a sort of determination not to understand it. This latter attitude, although intellectually deplorable, is understandable as a form of defense. "I don't have to believe this stuff because it's completely stupid or beyond my ken or whatever." This attitude is especially present in those who hold that the bible is somehow (or somewhat) authoritative but do not identify with the historical church. So I suggest that this is more of a political issue than anything else. To admit that the trinity is the best interpretation of scripture would be to challenge their group's break with the historical church (among other things).

Lastly, debates over whether the doctrine is biblical are usually doomed for reasons related to issues I rasied in the previous paragraph. So it can be quite exasperating discussing this topic. But perhaps they can bear some fruit if both sides (assuming there's only two -- yeah, right!) are willing to see where the other side has a point. This is possible without having to agree with the other's case. And I find that most discussions of the trinity devolve rapidly to name-calling because both sides see this as a no-holds-barred death match. That is, we forget that, however else we might describe God, he is love, and we who claim to be articulating a faithful vision of this god undercut ourselves in the way we approach these discussions. So there needs to be a place for genuine respect and love for the other in these discussions, and I'm sorry that I haven't been the best example of that in the past.

Anyway, lost focus a bit as this post got on. Apologies.
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
Jesus is the israelite that the lord Jehovah promised through Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18; that he would, in the future, raise up from among their own people, a man who he would send in his name "Who I Am," to do and say only that which he was commanded, this is verified by Peter in Acts 3: 22; For Moses said, "The Lord your God will send you a prophet just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people etc."

It was the man Jesus of who it is said in Acts 3: 13; "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has given divine glory to his servant Jesus." And then in Acts 17: 31; For he has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a man he has chosen. he has given proof of this to everyone by raising that man from death."

It was the man Jesus who in his youth made his prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to God who could save him from death, and because he was humble and devoted God heard him. Even though he was an Israelite and therefore A son of God, he had to learn through suffering to become totally obedient and do and say only that which he was commanded by our indwelling ancestral Father, in order that he could reveal himself through his obedient servant Jesus, who neither did nor spoke one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to do and say by our Father who dwells in the invisible kingdom that co-exists in the physical three dimensional world; for the kingdom of God our Father is within you. See Hebrew 5: 5-10.

Jesus did not take upon himself the honour of high priest, but after he had been brought to perfection, God declared him to be high priest in the line of succession to Melchizedek with these words as he rose from the baptismal waters and was filled with the spirit of the lord as the voice from heaven was heard to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am well pleased, today I have become your Father." See the more ancient authorities of Luke 3: 22.

The false teaching that Jesus was a God from all eternity and was the co-creator of cosmos, was introduced by the disciples of the anti-christ who John said in 1st John 4: 1-3; was already in the world in his day. Those deceptive teachers who are spoken of again in the second letter of John verses 7 to 11, who refused to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being and had spread this lie throughout the entire world were the ones who were later to introduce the false theory of the trinity.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
lol you make me smile katzpur, i'm a bit of a slow doddery ol'chap sometimes ; )
You may be slow, but I bet I have you beat in terms of old. :D

the only bit that is slightly wrong is that id imagine the father could feel the holy ghosts heart pimping as they are supposedly married in heaven, but the son is always on the look out and looking after the father to a certain degree, even though the father is trying to bring an understanding to everything, one wood imagine.
So do you or do you not believe in a physical unity between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Or would you say that you believe in more of a spiritual unity between them?
 

ayani

member
i do believe in it, though i didn't used to.

but i can see now that God the Father is certainly God.

Jesus also identifies Himself with the One True God, even while stating that He is distinct from the Father.

the Holy Spirit is identified in scripture as both "The Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of Jesus", and is described as being greivable and as personally directing and guiding the believer's inner and outer life.

so i do believe in the Trinity, that all three are One, all three are God, and of course that all three are vital for Christian life.
 

DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
Here is my belief:
I believe in God, the Father.
I believe in his Son Jesus Christ.
I believe in the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost points us/guides us to Jesus.
Jesus points us/guides us to the Father.
All light comes from God and if we follow it, leads to God.
 

Freelancer7

Active Member
You may be slow, but I bet I have you beat in terms of old. :D

So do you or do you not believe in a physical unity between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Or would you say that you believe in more of a spiritual unity between them?

The physical unity: I wood and cood only imagine is in the terms of reincarnation and finding each other, would be through blood lines. So they could be spread over great distances depending how families have travelled and spread through the years.

Mentaly ,most proably, cood be quite witty, but sometimes might be a little slow on the uptake, reason, working on that one, but with the son being the spirit of prophecy he should be up to speed.

Spiritualy i think i said my thoughts on that, but as the Father gets wiser, he could probably shut the Son out when required as he comes to terms with himself. Also he would most proably be slightly closer to the creator than the Son. The Holy Sprit obviousley I wood think wood be at unity, as a passionate love bond with the Father, but wood be like a caring Mother to the Son, even though not her Physical Son, if that sounds understandable
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Re reading this....

As always most christians seem come to the conclusion That God Jesus and the holy spirit are real entities,
However there is never agreement on how they should be regarded as a single GOD.

Even a Christian Unitarian would not doubt the existance of all three, But would insist there was only one God.
There might not be a significant difference to any of these views, Just a different visulization.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
God and Jesus are Spirit creatures and the Holy Spirit is Gods Active force (the thing that was whizzing two and fro over the earth in genesis
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary." "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son." They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds." The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance." Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship." "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."

If a politician used such obscure Gobbledygook he would be laughed of the platform.
Why should a theologian fare any better.?

When you have to invent a language to express a simple thought you know it is wrong.

That explanation might be in the Catechism, but what child actually under stands any of it?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Third, the doctrine of the trinity, in its nicene formulations and following did in fact use technical language and even had to invent or reapply existing terminology in order to make the formulation. (I have in mind here the substance/person distinction.) As a result of this, people have accused the church of lapsing into paganism or incoherence. Not so. Understandably, the intuitions I referred to in my first point provoked questions from the church and from those the church sought to reach. To answer these questions required a certain reinvention of language. Those basic intuitions required some high-falutin' philosophical work by people with more brains than most of us can ever hope to presume to have, yet the trinity is accessible to laypersons. If it weren't, there wouldn't have been any point in elaborating the trinity. How could anyone hope to respond to a message that was utterly incomprehensible?

It was only one of the candidate solutions at Nicea. Those that were out voted were declared Heretics.
This decision was not approved by the Emperor who reversed the Heretic status of those involved.

It was only when a sympathetic Emperor came along that the Trinity was established.

This would in my mind make it as much a political decision as a spiritual one.

Had it gone the other way and the Emperor had destroyed all the Trinity supporters. Today we would have had a more Unitarian Theology.



That said, misunderstanding is possible. Some of this is a matter of figuring out the concept. Admittedly, it's not immediately straightforward, but it doesn't take a Ph.D. to get it.

Some with a Ph.D. do disagree...
 

Thesavorofpan

Is not going to save you.
The Idea of the trinity destroyes the whole message of God. I love you so much instead of going down there myself I'm going to send this guy down there to do my dirty work.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
It was only one of the candidate solutions at Nicea. Those that were out voted were declared Heretics.

True.

This decision was not approved by the Emperor who reversed the Heretic status of those involved.

False. The emperor didn't approve but he had little to no influence over the outcome.

It was only when a sympathetic Emperor came along that the Trinity was established.

False. The Trinity formulation survived hostile emperors.

This would in my mind make it as much a political decision as a spiritual one.

True and false. True that politics were involved. The losers in the debate were bound to lose status. It's unfortunate that at times personal glory counts for more than the pastoral needs or the missional objectives of the church. False that politics were of equal weight with spiritual concerns. The fact that the church retained the Nicene formulation even after Arianism had become the dominant view in the church is testimony to the fact that mere force of numbers -- not to mention the backing of an Emperor -- was decisive.

Had it gone the other way and the Emperor had destroyed all the Trinity supporters. Today we would have had a more Unitarian Theology.

Probably false (who can say about such counterfactuals other than "if things were different they wouldn't be the same"?).

Some with a Ph.D. do disagree...

True. Not relevant.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
The Idea of the trinity destroyes the whole message of God. I love you so much instead of going down there myself I'm going to send this guy down there to do my dirty work.


The amount of power that God holds, if he were to come to the earth, he would kill us.

he gave the only child he had the only thing he physically created himself, - Jesus, as a sacrifice.

his son died for 3 days, you dont know what death holds and you still feel the pain, he knows exactly what death is - non existance - and he still did that for us. And its not like Jesus wasnt willing to do it anyway. He didnt have his arm twisted you know he wasnt forced into dying by God, he had a choice and he chose.

Justl ike Satan chose to mislead the entire inhabited earth.
 

dan b

Member
!. GOD THE FATHER - creator of material world - physical existence experience

2. SON of man - historical Civilization(personal/Civilizatonal) - e-motional exper.

3. HOLY SPIRIT - development of conscousness - mental understanding

God the Creator, the father created this pysical world of elements, forces, and life forms. This is the world's phsical manifestation and it was created by god in 7 days. Gen.1-2 When we conceive thoughts about physical material things our consciusness is operating in the "Father Perspective."

The human historical perspective lies in the ability for mankind to conceptualize his life as part of a ling drawn out series called the "generations of man." Human beings see life as both a 70 year and 7000 historical year movement. Hence e-motion. The Son comes from the father and travells.

The dimension of mental understanding or Holy Spirit is only attained after humanity, or in the personal perspective an individual, experiences living out their generations in God's physical world. Only after living our lives in this world will we have events to be entered into the endtime book of life for the judgment.

The Trinity perspective is mixxed into everything that is concievable to human beings but not to animals. This is because we can conceptualize a physical, emotional and mantal difference whereas they do not. We can consider the notions of be, do, and have as a set. Start , change and stop as a trinity set. The past, the present and the future, existence, activity and thought.

The Bible divides evenly into 3 parts that correspond with the Physical, Emotional and Mental. They are the Law, the Prophets and the Writtings. The Law was written in stone, The Prophets make emotional laments and the writings are epistles to be contemplated. These are the old Testament 39 book bible divisions but the 66 book Protestant bible fits them very well! In the bible there are many trinitys like the three books Genesis-Exodus-Leviticau. They mean the beginning, the movement , and the enlightened result. The first three major prophets are a trinity of Isaiah-physical description, Jeremiah and his emotional lamentations and Eziekiel and his mental visions. Matthew- Mark -Luke are the synoptic gospels= a trinity. So don't be told that christianity lacks the concept TRINTIY. dan b
 

Northern Papist

Grand Inquisitor
The Holy Trinity is a mysterty that you'll do yourself an injury in when trying to contemplate it :p.

Christ's blessings, Mary's prayers,
Northern Papist
 

lockyfan

Active Member
The Idea of the trinity destroyes the whole message of God. I love you so much instead of going down there myself I'm going to send this guy down there to do my dirty work.

He Gave his only Son. To Death. God knows that death is non-existance, so not only did he have to lose his sons presence in heaven for hte time he was on the earth, but he also then had him die.

God knows how we feel when our friends and relatives die, because he had his son do that. And his son went willingly knowing that Jehovah would ressurect him, just as he promises to ressurect the 144000 to heaven and the ones in the memorial tombs to life on earth

If a politician used such obscure Gobbledygook he would be laughed of the platform.
Why should a theologian fare any better.?

When you have to invent a language to express a simple thought you know it is wrong.

That explanation might be in the Catechism, but what child actually under stands any of it?

It is from the Catechism and not the bible?
There we go! Its not from God and therefore not true!


The Holy Trinity is a mysterty that you'll do yourself an injury in when trying to contemplate it :p.

Christ's blessings, Mary's prayers,
Northern Papist

I wouldnt try to contemplate it. Its false.
 
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