Perspective: How to Prevent another San Bernardino Shooting

[McBell]

He hasn't presented anything to demonstrate he is right, so until then........

So you have nothing to present to show him to be the liar you accuse him of being?
Rather interesting.
Now me personally, I have no problem calling a liar a liar.
I have received many a warning point for it.
But I do support my accusation when I call someone a liar.

 

[Lyndon]

Well I don't let liars dictate my behaviour. If they want to make statements then they can support them, if not, its not my place to do their homework.

 

[DawudTalut]

First of all, an Ahmadiyya's understanding of what Sharia Law is is irrelevant for a non-Muslim like myself, simply because Ahmadiyya Muslims are considered to be apostates by 99% of the Muslim population.

Peace be on you.
a=We are here in RF and Ahmadiyya DIR is among Islam DIR
http://www.religiousforums.com/forums/islam-dir.11/
Thus this 99% thing does not work here.

b=Hazrat Jesus (a.s.) : when he came, how many followed him in his life time ? 1% or less? or 99%?
[perhaps you too think he was left the world at 30 or so years......Ahmadiyya-Muslims believe, he migrated to meet lost tribes, preached in Tibet, Kashmir and died at 120 years of age with successful life: "Jesus in India" (Proofs from Quran, Bible, Medicine, History Book) in alislam.org]
Thus even if 101% is said , it is irrelavant in revival-movements.

c= What was said to Hazrat Moses (a.s.) and Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w.) when they began their work?

d=Since 1908 from India in 800,000 to 2015 in 207 Countries in millions is not something which anyone can run-over like this.

Hence, even if Ahmadiyya Muslims believe that Sharia Law is nothing but peace and love, that still leaves us with the problem of what 99% of the Muslim population think Sharia Law is. The thing is that 99% of the Muslim population knows that Sharia Law is simply a religious constitution that is clearly and unambiguously described in legal books such as "The Reliance of the Traveler" (Shafi'i school of jurisprudence). This book and any other book that emanates from the Islamic schools of jurisprudence should be banned.

a=The sect and book you mentioned is not 99% or majority too.
b=In fact Majority of Muslims are at unrest because they know Islam is peace but they find their religious-schools are presenting different Islam......That is why when they immigrate to West or educated places, they begin to realize what is truth and they distant themselves from corrupt clergies of Madrasas.

They teach Muslims to replace any man-made constitution with Allah's constitution. I agree with you when you say that Sharia Law is inextricably linked to what being a Muslim is. This is the big problem of our time. However, a line must be drawn somewhere if we are to fight "radicalization".

If you are serious in fighting "radicalization", stop supporting such regimes and help those who want to finish it.

The most natural way to draw this line is to separate Sharia Law from the other aspects of Islam. If this is impossible, then a peaceful coexistence between Islam and the non-Muslim world is utterly impossible.

Kindly check more about Shariah, Politics, how Shariah becomes tool of Oppression etc @
https://www.alislam.org/r.php?q=Shariah&sa=

i.e. search Shariah in alislamDOTorg

Good wishes.

 

[McBell]

Well I don't let liars dictate my behaviour.

Bull ****.
You are letting the one you claim is a liar lead you around by the nose.
Especially since you won't show your accused liar is actually a liar.

If they want to make statements then they can support them, if not, its not my place to do their homework.

It is your place to support your liar accusation.
YOU made the claim they are lying.
Thus it is on you to support your claim just as it is on them to support theirs.
If you do not, you are even worse than the one you call a liar.
For you call them a liar from an alleged higher moral ground.
To not support your claim is to make yourself even worse than the liar you accuse.

But to each their own.

 

[Lyndon]

Actually the people that know me know I'm not a liar, so I don't have to defend anything.

 

[Crypto2015]

Actually the people that know me know I'm not a liar, so I don't have to defend anything.

I cited a passage from the "Reliance of the Traveler", which is a Sharia Law manual from the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence. In the early history of Islam, this was the most influential school of jurisprudence. Nowadays, it is still one of the most respected schools of jurisprudence. This is what the Sharia Law manual says

"Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (this is called HufaaD)."

From the four Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence (Shafi'i, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Maliki), two (Shafi'i and Hanbali) say that female genital mutilation is mandatory, whereas the remaining two (Hanafi and Maliki) say that it is advisable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation#Sunni_view

The Shia also view female genital mutilation as advisable

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation#Shia_view

In addition to this, Sharia Law states that Muslims must strive to replace all man-made laws (i.e., the constitution of the US) with Sharia (the Islamic legal code). Therefore, anyone who supports Sharia Law is supporting sedition. That's what I mean when I say that Sharia is incompatible with any modern free society.

 

[Lyndon]

Then why aren't Middle Eastern women circumcised, I suggest you get your information from real Muslims, not some book you referenced from an anti Islam site.

I suggest you read your wikepedia link;

Overview[edit]
Further information: Khitan (circumcision) and Female genital mutilation
In Islamic texts the practice is referred to as khafḍ (Arabic: خفض‎)[6] or khifaḍ (Arabic: خِفَض‎).[7] The less severe forms, particularly what the World Health Organization calls Type I (removal of the clitoral hood with either part of or the entire clitoris), is known as Sunnacircumcision.[8] FGM is found mostly within and adjacent to Muslim communities in Central-North Africa, but it is not required by Islam or practiced in most Muslim countries, and prevalence rates vary according to ethnicity, not religion.[9] There is no reference to it in the Qur'an.[10] Amnesty International notes that the practice has nevertheless "acquired a religious dimension"; according to UNICEF there is a widespread view, particularly in Mali, Eritrea, Mauritania, Guinea and Egypt, that it is a religious requirement.[11] Medical anthropologist Carla Obermeyer writes:]

Regarding religious differences, it is now generally recognized that even though a number of the countries where female genital surgeries are found are predominantly Muslim. In CDI [Côte d'Ivoire], the prevalence is 80 percent among Muslims, 40 percent among those with no religion and 15 percent among Protestants, and in Sudan the prevalence is highest among Muslim women ... In Kenya, by contrast, prevalence is highest among Catholics and Protestants compared with other religious groups ... Thus, there is no unequivocal link between religion and prevalence. - Carla Obermeyer, 1999[12]

The former Grand Mufti of Egypt Ali Gomaa stated in 2007 that "The traditional form of excision is a practice totally banned by Islam because of the compelling evidence of the extensive damage it causes to women's bodies and minds."[13] Egyptian Islamist scholars such as Mohammed Emara and Mohammad Salim Al-Awa have opposed FGM, arguing that it is not an Islamic practice and is not endorsed by Islamic jurisprudence.[14]

Gruenbaum has emphasized that followers of Islam – “have at times practised female circumcision and consider their practices sanctioned, or at least not prohibited, by God.” Despite the fact that FGM/C predates the birth of Islam and is not mandated by religious scriptures, the belief that it is a religious requirement contributes to the continuation of the practice in a number of settings. - UNICEF, 2013[5]

Some scholars[15][16] suggest religious views have influenced the practice of FGM. Religious views are claimed[17][18][19] to have permitted, justified, even encouraged FGM, over human history. There is an ongoing debate as to the extent FGM practice is influenced by religious views, ethnicity and other factors, in different countries.[15][20] Religious views are but one of several factors that maintain FGM practice.

Historical religious views[edit]

 

[Crypto2015]

Peace be on you.
a=We are here in RF and Ahmadiyya DIR is among Islam DIR
http://www.religiousforums.com/forums/islam-dir.11/
Thus this 99% thing does not work here.

b=Hazrat Jesus (a.s.) : when he came, how many followed him in his life time ? 1% or less? or 99%?
[perhaps you too think he was left the world at 30 or so years......Ahmadiyya-Muslims believe, he migrated to meet lost tribes, preached in Tibet, Kashmir and died at 120 years of age with successful life: "Jesus in India" (Proofs from Quran, Bible, Medicine, History Book) in alislam.org]
Thus even if 101% is said , it is irrelavant in revival-movements.

c= What was said to Hazrat Moses (a.s.) and Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w.) when they began their work?

d=Since 1908 from India in 800,000 to 2015 in 207 Countries in millions is not something which anyone can run-over like this.




a=The sect and book you mentioned is not 99% or majority too.
b=In fact Majority of Muslims are at unrest because they know Islam is peace but they find their religious-schools are presenting different Islam......That is why when they immigrate to West or educated places, they begin to realize what is truth and they distant themselves from corrupt clergies of Madrasas.


If you are serious in fighting "radicalization", stop supporting such regimes and help those who want to finish it.



Kindly check more about Shariah, Politics, how Shariah becomes tool of Oppression etc @
https://www.alislam.org/r.php?q=Shariah&sa=

i.e. search Shariah in alislamDOTorg

Good wishes.

I am not saying that the Ahmadiyya movement is irrelevant or that your theology is more wrong than that of other Muslim denominations. What I said is that, considering the fact that Ahmadiyya Muslims represent only 1% of the Muslim population, the theological views of this Muslim denomination are almost negligible when it comes to the impact of Islamic theology on non-Muslim populations. There is something that I still don't understand. Do you support Sharia Law or not? If you do, what do you think about what Sharia law says (stoning gays, replacing the US constitution with Sharia, cutting women's clitorises, etc.)

 

[Lyndon]

What do you think about your religion's forcing your daughter to marry her rapist, and stoning to death any young women that doesn't have her hymen intact, or stoning gays, all part of your religion, maybe you should worry about getting your own house in order, and leave the other religions alone!

 

[Crypto2015]

Then why aren't Middle Eastern women circumcised, I suggest you get your information from real Muslims, not some book you referenced from an anti Islam site.

I suggest you read your wikepedia link;

Overview[edit]
Further information: Khitan (circumcision) and Female genital mutilation
In Islamic texts the practice is referred to as khafḍ (Arabic: خفض‎)[6] or khifaḍ (Arabic: خِفَض‎).[7] The less severe forms, particularly what the World Health Organization calls Type I (removal of the clitoral hood with either part of or the entire clitoris), is known as Sunnacircumcision.[8] FGM is found mostly within and adjacent to Muslim communities in Central-North Africa, but it is not required by Islam or practiced in most Muslim countries, and prevalence rates vary according to ethnicity, not religion.[9] There is no reference to it in the Qur'an.[10] Amnesty International notes that the practice has nevertheless "acquired a religious dimension"; according to UNICEF there is a widespread view, particularly in Mali, Eritrea, Mauritania, Guinea and Egypt, that it is a religious requirement.[11] Medical anthropologist Carla Obermeyer writes:]

Regarding religious differences, it is now generally recognized that even though a number of the countries where female genital surgeries are found are predominantly Muslim. In CDI [Côte d'Ivoire], the prevalence is 80 percent among Muslims, 40 percent among those with no religion and 15 percent among Protestants, and in Sudan the prevalence is highest among Muslim women ... In Kenya, by contrast, prevalence is highest among Catholics and Protestants compared with other religious groups ... Thus, there is no unequivocal link between religion and prevalence. - Carla Obermeyer, 1999[12]

The former Grand Mufti of Egypt Ali Gomaa stated in 2007 that "The traditional form of excision is a practice totally banned by Islam because of the compelling evidence of the extensive damage it causes to women's bodies and minds."[13] Egyptian Islamist scholars such as Mohammed Emara and Mohammad Salim Al-Awa have opposed FGM, arguing that it is not an Islamic practice and is not endorsed by Islamic jurisprudence.[14]

Gruenbaum has emphasized that followers of Islam – “have at times practised female circumcision and consider their practices sanctioned, or at least not prohibited, by God.” Despite the fact that FGM/C predates the birth of Islam and is not mandated by religious scriptures, the belief that it is a religious requirement contributes to the continuation of the practice in a number of settings. - UNICEF, 2013[5]

Some scholars[15][16] suggest religious views have influenced the practice of FGM. Religious views are claimed[17][18][19] to have permitted, justified, even encouraged FGM, over human history. There is an ongoing debate as to the extent FGM practice is influenced by religious views, ethnicity and other factors, in different countries.[15][20] Religious views are but one of several factors that maintain FGM practice.

Historical religious views[edit]

First of all, Middle Eastern women are also subjected to female genital mutilation

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/12/10/a-balanced-look-at-fgm/

Notice how Muslims practice this even in Indonesia and Pakistan. Regarding the fact that Sharia Law regards female genital mutilation either as mandatory or as advisable, depending on the school of jurisprudence, you are wrong again, here there is a fatwa regarding female genital mutilation

"Thus it is clear that female circumcision is prescribed in Islam, and that it is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah and it has a good effect of moderating the individual’s behaviour. As for the opinions of doctors who say that female circumcision is harmful, these are individual opinions which are not derived from any agreed scientific basis, and they do not form an established scientific opinion. They acknowledge that the rates of cancer among circumcised men are lower than among those who are not circumcised, and some of these doctors clearly recommend that circumcision should be done by doctors and not these ignorant women, so that the operation will be safe and there will be no negative consequences. However, medical theories about disease and the way to treat it are not fixed, rather they change with time and with ongoing research. So it is not correct to rely on them when criticizing circumcision which the Wise and All-Knowing Lawgiver has decreed in His wisdom for mankind. Experience has taught us that the wisdom behind some rulings and Sunnahs may be hidden from us. May Allaah help us all to follow the right path."

Circumcision of girls and some doctors’ criticism thereof
Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 60314

 

[Crypto2015]

What do you think about your religion's forcing your daughter to marry her rapist, and stoning to death any young women that doesn't have her hymen intact, or stoning gays, all part of your religion, maybe you should worry about getting your own house in order, and leave the other religions alone!

My religion does not instruct us to do that. I can prove it. However, even if Christianity taught that, which it does not, would that make Sharia Law any better?

 

[Lyndon]

First of all, Middle Eastern women are also subjected to female genital mutilation

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/12/10/a-balanced-look-at-fgm/

Notice how Muslims practice this even in Indonesia and Pakistan. Regarding the fact that Sharia Law regards female genital mutilation either as mandatory or as advisable, depending on the school of jurisprudence, you are wrong again, here there is a fatwa regarding female genital mutilation

"Thus it is clear that female circumcision is prescribed in Islam, and that it is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah and it has a good effect of moderating the individual’s behaviour. As for the opinions of doctors who say that female circumcision is harmful, these are individual opinions which are not derived from any agreed scientific basis, and they do not form an established scientific opinion. They acknowledge that the rates of cancer among circumcised men are lower than among those who are not circumcised, and some of these doctors clearly recommend that circumcision should be done by doctors and not these ignorant women, so that the operation will be safe and there will be no negative consequences. However, medical theories about disease and the way to treat it are not fixed, rather they change with time and with ongoing research. So it is not correct to rely on them when criticizing circumcision which the Wise and All-Knowing Lawgiver has decreed in His wisdom for mankind. Experience has taught us that the wisdom behind some rulings and Sunnahs may be hidden from us. May Allaah help us all to follow the right path."

Circumcision of girls and some doctors’ criticism thereof
Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 60314

Notice your map leaves out almost the entire Middle East and Iran, most of Pakistan and India, isn't that what I told you. Where are you getting this cxxp from, you list no sources for your Fatwas.

 

[Lyndon]

My religion does not instruct us to do that. I can prove it. However, even if Christianity taught that, which it does not, would that make Sharia Law any better?

I can only assume your Bible sits unread on your shelf, at least the book of Leviticus does!!

 

[DawudTalut]

..........There is something that I still don't understand. Do you support Sharia Law or not? If you do, what do you think about what Sharia law says (stoning gays, replacing the US constitution with Sharia, cutting women's clitorises, etc.)

Peace be on you.
Ahmadiyya-Muslims do not support that Shariah laws should be imposed on everyone with force AND they do not support that other countries laws should be changed by force.

1=https://www.alislam.org/egazette/eg...azette-separation-of-mosque-church-and-state/

2=https://www.alislam.org/egazette/up...-law-must-be-established-everywhere-forcibly/

3=http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/Female-circumcision-and-its-standing-in-Islamic-law.pdf

 

[Crypto2015]

Notice your map leaves out almost the entire Middle East and Iran, most of Pakistan and India, isn't that what I told you. Where are you getting this cxxp from, you list no sources for your Fatwas.

Are you joking? Egypt and Yemen are in the Middle East. Pakistan and India also have problems with female genital mutilation. The fatwas are from a website called Islamic Q&A. It is an Islamic website. Here you have the fatwa praising the benefits of female genital mutilation:

http://islamqa.info/en/45528

 

[Crypto2015]

Peace be on you.
Ahmadiyya-Muslims do not support that Shariah laws should be imposed on everyone with force AND they do not support that other countries laws should be changed by force.

1=https://www.alislam.org/egazette/eg...azette-separation-of-mosque-church-and-state/

2=https://www.alislam.org/egazette/up...-law-must-be-established-everywhere-forcibly/

3=http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/Female-circumcision-and-its-standing-in-Islamic-law.pdf

How is that possible? Sharia law is about imposing Sharia law on others. Don't you believe in the dhimma contract?

 

[Lyndon]

I've seen you Q and A website, it is not a mainstream Islamic website, but rather an extreme one.

 

[Crypto2015]

I've seen you Q and A website, it is not a mainstream Islamic website, but rather an extreme one.

I am glad that you consider it extreme. Unfortunately, according to Alexa Internet, it is the most popular website on the topic of Islam

"In 2015, Alexa lists the site as the most popular on the topic of Islam.[7]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IslamQA.info

This tells us something about what is mainstream Islam and what is not, right?

 

[Lyndon]

Who the heck is Alexa internet, you do realize there is absolutely no information of which country this is coming out of, whether it is Sunni or Shiite even. Now that I read your link, I see it quite clear that this is an extremist website, not representative of most Muslims, no matter what hits, probably mostly from people like you, it gets.

 

[Crypto2015]

Who the heck is Alexa internet, you do realize there is absolutely no information of which country this is coming out of, whether it is Sunni or Shiite even. Now that I read your link, I see it quite clear that this is an extremist website, not representative of most Muslims, no matter what hits, probably mostly from people like you, it gets.

Alexa Internet is a US company that monitors internet traffic. It belongs to Amazon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexa_Internet

Yes, IslamQ&A is an extremist website, but according to Alexa Internet it is the most popular website in the world on the topic of Islam. It is a website with connections to Saudi Arabia. It was founded by Muhammad Al-Munajjid, who, according to Al-Jazeera, is considered to be one of the most respected scholars in the Salafi movement. The fact that this website is the most popular one among the Muslim community proves that radicalization is a much bigger problem than what people normally believe. For sources see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Al-Munajjid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IslamQA.info